ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th February 2020, 06:24 AM   #961
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
If the aircraft didn't fly, then why were reports written concerning the flight? Why did ATC have recording with the pilots until they were forcefully removed from operating the aircraft? Why did the FDR and CVR corroborate the hijacking and ultimate crash into the Pentagon? If what you believe happened, then what happened to the aircraft the passengers and crew?

Do you realize that a predominate number of aircraft parts have no serial numbers? They are casting nombres associated witt no particular aircraft.

You just go down the road believing anything a CT tells you.

Last edited by bknight; 16th February 2020 at 07:18 AM.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 06:38 AM   #962
rubygray
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
What you don't see is the conversation before the cameras roll. CIT is anything but neutral. They have an agenda that you don't perceive.
So YOU say.

But what Sean Boger said, and what all the other eyewitnesses said, including the many who were not even interviewed by CIT, is that the PLANE flew NORTH OF THE CITGO.

As Craig Ranke explained, all they did was interview witnesses, and record their accounts.

The idea that they could somehow have coerced dozens of people, including officers of the law, journalists, Pentagon staff, etc. to tell tall stories to order, is absurd.

The witnesses' testimony was not swayed by anything CIT said.

No matter how hard they tried on their rookie interview, and the second video, they could not persuade Lloyde England to tell lies.

Sean Boger kept arguing with them, even though he had seen the Gatecam videos showing the plane allegedly hitting the ground floor, that the plane hit the wall between the 2nd and 3rd floors (as did several other witnesses).

Sergeant Lagasse became very angry when told that the Official story had the plane flying across the bridge, knocking down lightpoles, one of which hit Lloyde England's cab there. He vehemently insisted that the taxi was hit when opposite the heliport, by the cemetery wall, exactly as Lloyde England maintained despite extreme duress from CIT. Lagasse was adamant that NOTHING HAPPENED ON THE BRIDGE, and that he had never heard of ANYBODY claiming anything to the contrary.

It is those who have such a desperate need to believe the government story justifying mass murder at home and abroad, that they wantonly deny the evidence of scores of credible eyewitnesses, who have the agenda to serve.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 06:53 AM   #963
rubygray
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
If the aircraft didn't fly, then why were reports written concerning the flight? Why did ATC have recording with the pilots until they were forcefully removed from operating the aircraft? Why did the FDR and CVR corroborate the hijacking and ultimate crash into the Pentagon? If what you believe happened, then what happened to the aircraft the passengers and crew?

Do you realize that a predominate number of aircraft parts have no serial numbers?

You just go down the road believing anything a CT tells you.
Apparently a 757 is composed of 3 million parts, many of which have serial numbers.

Yet not a single serial number was traced to N644AA.

Nor was an item of luggage or clothing ever recovered. This is the ubiquitous sign of a plane crash, as being so soft and flexible, it survives immense forces virtually intact.

I have studied far more than CIT's work.

Gerard Holmgren, whose work I referenced, had nothing to do with CIT. He refused to buy into speculation about what happened to passengers, until there was genuine evidence. Nor do I intend to. That is not my purpose. I am merely promoting Lloyde England's own testimony.

The topic of THIS THREAD, is CIT's second video on Lloyde England, so it is entirely appropriate to discuss CIT here.

Surely everyone is aware of the inordinate number of drills being run that day, duplicating and confusing every facet of the operation, so that air traffic controllers were unsure about what was real and not. The perfect cover for falsified communication with non-existent planes.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:09 AM   #964
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,991
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
ruby How many individuals gave the FBI NoC information?
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
As if the FBI is ever going to tell you that!!
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
This is why it's a waste of time trying to talk sensibly with some CTists. First the "you can't trust the FBI!"- then, immediately after, and with apparently no sense of the incongruity, comes the "why didn't the FBI give you this info?" Seriously, ruby- can you not see why it's so transparently self-serving for you to demand evidence from a source you've just said you won't trust? You can't yourself poison a well and then think that people will offer you water from it with any honest expectation that you will drink it.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:31 AM   #965
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Apparently a 757 is composed of 3 million parts, many of which have serial numbers.

Yet not a single serial number was traced to N644AA.

Nor was an item of luggage or clothing ever recovered. This is the ubiquitous sign of a plane crash, as being so soft and flexible, it survives immense forces virtually intact.

I have studied far more than CIT's work.

Gerard Holmgren, whose work I referenced, had nothing to do with CIT. He refused to buy into speculation about what happened to passengers, until there was genuine evidence. Nor do I intend to. That is not my purpose. I am merely promoting Lloyde England's own testimony.

The topic of THIS THREAD, is CIT's second video on Lloyde England, so it is entirely appropriate to discuss CIT here.

Surely everyone is aware of the inordinate number of drills being run that day, duplicating and confusing every facet of the operation, so that air traffic controllers were unsure about what was real and not. The perfect cover for falsified communication with non-existent planes.
Those numbers are casting numbers not associated with any particular aircraft. Why do you believe that any number would be found on a piece of wreckage? Don't you think it is odd that DNA from listed passengers, crew, and IIRC hijackers were found insiste the Pentagon?
Don't presume to lecture me on the topic of the thread as you have made as many if not more off topic comments.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:35 AM   #966
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Apparently a 757 is composed of 3 million parts, many of which have serial numbers.

Yet not a single serial number was traced to N644AA.
Are you saying that serial numbers of parts are unique to individual airframes?

Can you give any details or cites pertaining to your research on this?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:37 AM   #967
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
So YOU say.

But what Sean Boger said, and what all the other eyewitnesses said, including the many who were not even interviewed by CIT, is that the PLANE flew NORTH OF THE CITGO.

As Craig Ranke explained, all they did was interview witnesses, and record their accounts.

The idea that they could somehow have coerced dozens of people, including officers of the law, journalists, Pentagon staff, etc. to tell tall stories to order, is absurd.

The witnesses' testimony was not swayed by anything CIT said.

No matter how hard they tried on their rookie interview, and the second video, they could not persuade Lloyde England to tell lies.

Sean Boger kept arguing with them, even though he had seen the Gatecam videos showing the plane allegedly hitting the ground floor, that the plane hit the wall between the 2nd and 3rd floors (as did several other witnesses).

Sergeant Lagasse became very angry when told that the Official story had the plane flying across the bridge, knocking down lightpoles, one of which hit Lloyde England's cab there. He vehemently insisted that the taxi was hit when opposite the heliport, by the cemetery wall, exactly as Lloyde England maintained despite extreme duress from CIT. Lagasse was adamant that NOTHING HAPPENED ON THE BRIDGE, and that he had never heard of ANYBODY claiming anything to the contrary.

It is those who have such a desperate need to believe the government story justifying mass murder at home and abroad, that they wantonly deny the evidence of scores of credible eyewitnesses, who have the agenda to serve.
Theresa is much that is wrong here but I don't have the time to write a rebuttal.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 08:01 AM   #968
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
So YOU say.

But what Sean Boger said, and what all the other eyewitnesses said, including the many who were not even interviewed by CIT, is that the PLANE flew NORTH OF THE CITGO.
He also said that it definitely hit the Pentagon and he was in a position to see that. Either he was wrong about it hitting the Pentagon (and he was right next to the crash site) or he was wrong about its position with respect to the gas station.

Quote:
The idea that they could somehow have coerced dozens of people, including officers of the law, journalists, Pentagon staff, etc. to tell tall stories to order, is absurd.
No-one suggested they coerced anyone.

Quote:
Sean Boger kept arguing with them, even though he had seen the Gatecam videos showing the plane allegedly hitting the ground floor, that the plane hit the wall between the 2nd and 3rd floors (as did several other witnesses).
Can you give a link to the video or audio and timestamp where he says this? I have recently listened to what I think is the only interview they have with him and I don't recall him doing this.

I do recall him saying a couple of times that the gatecam will give a different perspective to his.

Quote:
Sergeant Lagasse became very angry when told that the Official story had the plane flying across the bridge, knocking down lightpoles, one of which hit Lloyde England's cab there. He vehemently insisted that the taxi was hit when opposite the heliport, by the cemetery wall, exactly as Lloyde England maintained despite extreme duress from CIT. Lagasse was adamant that NOTHING HAPPENED ON THE BRIDGE, and that he had never heard of ANYBODY claiming anything to the contrary.
Again, I think I have listened to all the Lagasse interviews and don't recall this. Can you give me the video or audio and timestamp?

Sgt Lagasse was fuelling at the pump on the other side from the north path and he was facing the official path with his back to the north path (ie he had the nozzle on lock and was at the drivers door with the door open and was talking to the dog on the back seat).

He seemed to be under the impression that it was possible for the plane to have crashed into the Pentagon on the path he indicated.

I didn't see where they pointed out to him that it was impossible for the plane to have hit the Pentagon from that path. If they had he may well have had a rethink
Quote:
It is those who have such a desperate need to believe the government story justifying mass murder at home and abroad, that they wantonly deny the evidence of scores of credible eyewitnesses, who have the agenda to serve.
Can you give your evidence that led you to believe we have a desparate need to believe the government story?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 08:03 AM   #969
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
The bottom line is, anyone who is a witness to the plane hitting the building is a witness to the official path, because it couldn't have hit the Pentagon from any other direction.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 03:21 PM   #970
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Whole lot of hot air on this page, unsupported by any examples.
If there is something I have said that you feel is unsupported by evidence please quote that part.

Quote:

CIT in fact were usually absolutely neutral when questioning witnesses.
Sure, and I am Father Christmas.

Quote:

Father Stephen McGraw

Joel Sucherman

Vin Narayanan

Mary Ann Owens

as these all corroborate each other, and all 5 of them are Northside witnesses.
I don't see how you make out McGraw as a north side witness. The other three I haven't looked at yet.

Quote:
And Lloyde England never fell for their accusations. He maintained his story graciously to the end.


HE WAS NOT ON THE BRIDGE WHEN IT HAPPENED.
He certainly believed he didn't stop on the bridge. But there is no plausible way that the cab could have gotten there

Quote:

If you all are so convinced that CIT led their witnesses, then I agree with you that they tried with Lloyde, but failed miserably.

So go through Lloyde's lengthy, detailed accounts, and see for yourselves the truth that he told, despite the inexperienced, biased interrogations by Craig, Russell and Aldo.
I don't know if I have heard everything that Englande has said on the matter, but I have heard quite a lot.

I haven't heard England explain why the cab is on the bridge or alternately say that he doesn't know how it got there. He avoids acknowledging that the car was on the bridge even when asked directly about those photographs.

So clearly he does not have a clear recollection of the events of the day in either scenario.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 16th February 2020 at 04:10 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 03:54 PM   #971
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Picture yourself - you are driving along and you see a big low flying plane in front of you and a piece of debris smashes through your window nearly killing you. You control the car and bring it to a halt.

You flag down another motorist and ask him to help you get the debris out of your windscreen.

After that a large black tow truck carefully backs up to your car. The driver climbs out and presses the button to lower the tray. It takes about 20 seconds for the tray to lower completely.

Then he presses the button to let out enough cable to reach your car. This takes about 30 seconds. He then gets under your car and ensures that the cable is secured to the front of your chassis. Then he presses a button to start the winch to pull your car onto the trailer. This takes about 30 seconds to get your car fully onto the tray.

Then he presses the button to lift the tray back up. This takes about 20 seconds.

The whole operation, three to four minutes at a minimum.

Then he gets in and drives the truck 300 metres up the road. Where he reverses the process.

And you notice nothing.

And, for the next 7 hours you do not notice that your car has been moved, even though you have to organise for the car to be towed.

And then someone shows you a picture of your car in the moved position and your only response is a cryptic "It is facing the wrong way".

No, England does not have a clear account of the day. If he can't remember how the cab got there and doesn't even seem to realise that the cab was there, then it is much more likely that he was simply mistaken about where he stopped.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 16th February 2020 at 04:11 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 04:07 PM   #972
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
I don't see how Joel Sucherman can be called a north path witness.

But he is an impact witness.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 06:03 PM   #973
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
If you look at the CIT video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bR-k96laOI

@22:49, Turcios says:

"I saw it lift up a little bit to get over to the side of the bridge here where you see the do not enter sign. Seems to be that way"

The CIT guy says:

"So you are talking about the do not enter sign - oh I see - you are talking about the do not enter sign right there."

and zooms into a "Do not enter" sign way over near the Pentagon and does not mention the "Do not enter" sign that i s right by the side of the bridge. In fact he carefully keeps that sign just out of shot. (You can just see the edge of the gantry in an earlier shot which shows that this "Do not enter" sign would be clearly visible.

We do not know which one Turcios is actually talking about because the CIT guy does not mention the other one.

But Turcios clearly says:

"I saw it lift up a little bit to get over to the side of the bridge here where you see the do not enter sign. Seems to be that way"

To the side of the bridge here.

An impartial interviewer would have asked him which one he meant.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 06:08 PM   #974
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,417
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Apparently a 757 is composed of 3 million parts, many of which have serial numbers.

Yet not a single serial number was traced to N644AA.

Nor was an item of luggage or clothing ever recovered. This is the ubiquitous sign of a plane crash, as being so soft and flexible, it survives immense forces virtually intact.
You don't know were recovered because FBI never bothered to either log them or release them to the public due to the fact that it was unnecessary and because the FBI was the lead agency and not the NTSB it was not part of their protocol.

In America in 2001 we still had basic standards, one of which was not wasting time and money drafting reports so that stupid people can understand them.

The luggage and clothing burned in the crash.

Quote:
I have studied far more than CIT's work.
Then you know that they gave up after realizing the fly-over theory was idiotic.

Quote:
Gerard Holmgren, whose work I referenced, had nothing to do with CIT. He refused to buy into speculation about what happened to passengers, until there was genuine evidence.
He was a self-centered jerk who had loved to blow smoke for the sake of stirring trouble. Thankfully he's dead.

Quote:
Nor do I intend to. That is not my purpose. I am merely promoting Lloyde England's own testimony.
It's not testimony, it's a statement. He's not under oath.

You've obviously missed this:

Quote:
n the paper The Pentagon Attack: Eyewitnesses, Debris Flow and Other Issues - A Reply to Fletcher and Eastman Version 2, the description, on page 37 (Appendix C), of the light pole that struck Lloyde Englandís taxi cab, is incorrect. Recent detailed research by Wayne Coste has shown that the large mast of light pole #1 was not, as stated in the text, the pole piece that entered the taxi cab windshield. Through his analysis of a series of photographs of the pole pieces for light poles #1 and #2, Coste proves that it was the much smaller lower lamp support arm of light pole #2 that entered the windshield.

The plane hit light pole #2 just as Englandís cab reached that location, and the pole broke into several parts, with the lower lamp support arm piercing the taxiís windshield. The length of this piece of pole matches the dimensions in Englandís rough drawing of the cab and pole, and comports with the hole in the back seat of the cab. By the time England had stopped the cab, he was at the location where the mast of light pole #1 was lying on the roadside. This figure from a portion of Costeís video presentation shows the taxi cab, the mast of light pole #1 (lower right), and the lower lamp support arm of light pole #2 (left in lower ellipse) after a passing motorist helped England remove it from the taxiís windshield. In the background in the other ellipse is another portion of the mast of light pole
And this is from a Truther website which should be a giant red flag as to how far out on a limb you are:

http://www.scientificmethod911.org/r..._reply_fe.html

Quote:
Surely everyone is aware of the inordinate number of drills being run that day,
What exactly is an "Inordinate number of drills"?

I love Australia but there are only 25,466,459 people down there whereas my home state of California is home to almost 40 million people alone, and the US population is 332,639,102. I don't mean to sound condescending the United States is a busy place. The military and civilian agencies conduct training exercises SEVEN DAYS A WEEK in almost all 50 states. These are disaster readiness drills, active shooter drills, viral outbreak drills, fire drills, earthquake/hurricane/tornado readiness drills, and the five branches of the military do their own thing, some on base and some out on public land.

The combined operational tempo of American military and civilian agencies is impressive, and certainly might seem overwhelming to non-Americans because the exercises we conduct on a weekly basis would bankrupt many countries. But to the average American, September 11th's drills were just an average Tuesday.

Quote:
duplicating and confusing every facet of the operation, so that air traffic controllers were unsure about what was real and not. The perfect cover for falsified communication with non-existent planes.
This is a lie.

All four plane's movements were logged from their arrivals at each airport, to their transition to the boarding gates, to their departure from the gates, to their taxi to their standby positions on the runway, to their take-offs, to their radio handover to regional ATC centers. Every step in this process was witnessed by dozens to hundreds of people, and there are both electronic and paper records.

All 4 Al Qaeda pilots turned off their transponders because they knew it would make their planes difficult to track. In the US there are 593,499 private aircraft and 10% or more can be in the air at any time (Australia has 29,000 licensed pilots). There are an average of 100,000 flights (commercial and private) in the US every day. Without the transponders those planes vanished into the din of general aviation radar which does not work like it does in the movies (even today).

Your unfamiliarity with the daily workings of the United States is a handicap.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:06 PM   #975
waypastvne
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post



I suggest this photo faces the north windows of the tower, with Boger and Kidd facing east, towards the console, which obviously would be built into the enclosed rear part of the office, not in the open viewing area.

There were large trees to the north of the heliport tower, which are seen here.

This is the view north of the tower. Can you please point out the "large trees to the north of the heliport tower" you are talking about to me.




If Sean Boger saw the plane approaching the Pentagon then he is a south side witness.

And Yvette Buzzard was driving south on 27.

Last edited by waypastvne; 16th February 2020 at 07:12 PM.
waypastvne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:53 PM   #976
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Can you give a link to the video or audio and timestamp where he says this? I have recently listened to what I think is the only interview they have with him and I don't recall him doing this.

I do recall him saying a couple of times that the gatecam will give a different perspective to his.
Don't bother I have found the part.

Quote:
CIT telephone interview with Sean Boger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo
@10:29
Boger: "He was actually descending"

CIT: "He was descending? OK So he wasn't actually level across the ground,

Did you see the security video, the surveillance video, did you see how the plane was low and level across the grass?

Did you see how the plane was low and level across the grass."

Boger: "Yes"

CIT: "That kind of sounds different to it actually descending into the building"


Boger "Yeah I saw the camera and I know where those cameras are. and an aircraft to me is just, is so big that when something like that is actually flying into the building I mean if you're low you're going to have one view and I think if you're up high you're going to have a different view.

And that camera I think I don't know if that camera is located on top of the building or if they took that camera from the um gate that we had to go through to get inside the uh area where the heliport was"

CIT: "Yeah, its the gate cam"

Boger: "Yeah I think that's what it was and that gate cam is no higher than 3 feet."

CIT: "yeah it has the plane low and level across the lawn. not coming from a descent"

Boger: "I'm on ...I'm like two stories up. as I'm looking at that plane that plane didn't seem like it was level. It seemed like it was actually at a point of descent.

So if it was let's say 3 stories high it was descending to 2 stories high so it wasn't, I didn't see like anything level. To me it would be like too big to actually be that level. because he was almost like you know 10, 15 feet from the ground if you just go by that video."

CIT: "Right um ok"

Boger: "I mean if that's the case he would have taken out a lot more stuff like if he was down level like that, I don't know I think he would ... he definitely would have taken out a lot more stuff than he did."

CIT: "Would you say that it hit low or it hit high? "

Boger: "I pretty much say it hit maybe between the 2nd and 3rd floor"
So the first point is that this only differs from the official report by 1 floor.

In Australia "between the second floor and third floor" sounds quite high, but presumably he is talking in American terminology. In Australia we would say "between the first and second floor", whereas the damage reports indicate that it hit somewhere between the ground and the first floor.

Note he is also saying more than once that he attributes any discrepancy to an illusion due to the differing heights of him and the gate cam.

Also note that he is clear that the plane is descending into the building, not climbing over it.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 07:58 PM   #977
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
This is the view north of the tower. Can you please point out the "large trees to the north of the heliport tower" you are talking about to me.

https://i.imgur.com/iDWpUgT.png


If Sean Boger saw the plane approaching the Pentagon then he is a south side witness.

And Yvette Buzzard was driving south on 27.
By golly I can see a white shirt in a right sleeve, can you ruby?

waypastvne, do you have an stock aerial image of the Pentagon that shows the tower?
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 08:19 PM   #978
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
"Boger: "I mean if that's the case he would have taken out a lot more stuff like if he was down level like that, I don't know I think he would ... he definitely would have taken out a lot more stuff than he did."

CIT: "Would you say that it hit low or it hit high? "

Boger: "I pretty much say it hit maybe between the 2nd and 3rd floor" "

Indeed the plane did descend from the top of the bridge and berm built around the bridge. And the report

http://www.attivissimo.net/9-11/Pent...anceReport.pdf

on page 20, indicates that the port engine struck the ground at the instant the nose impacted the building. This is the report that ruby either didn't read or hand waves away.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2020, 09:04 PM   #979
waypastvne
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 513
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
waypastvne, do you have an stock aerial image of the Pentagon that shows the tower?
Not sure what angle you are looking for so here is some helicopter footage from 911 starting at 4;25

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
waypastvne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 12:10 AM   #980
rubygray
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
This is why it's a waste of time trying to talk sensibly with some CTists. First the "you can't trust the FBI!"- then, immediately after, and with apparently no sense of the incongruity, comes the "why didn't the FBI give you this info?" Seriously, ruby- can you not see why it's so transparently self-serving for you to demand evidence from a source you've just said you won't trust? You can't yourself poison a well and then think that people will offer you water from it with any honest expectation that you will drink it.
What in the world are you talking about!!

I am not demanding evidence from the FBI.

I am merely pointing out that the FBI does not have that evidence, and that any evidence they do have, they are not sharing with anyone!

I.e. if they had evidence of ANY serial numbers, they would be crowing about it from the rooftops, but all is silence. Nothing there. No proof of AA77 (nor of any of the other 3 planes). No serial numbers. Not even on the black boxes.

As for all FBI interviews, whatever they were told, these are undisclosed.
I wonder why!
Lloyde England was interviewed by the FBI on 9/12/2001, and doubtless he told them his location by the cemetery wall when the pole speared his cab, but that information, like all 911 calls that morning, has been sequestered.
rubygray is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 01:17 AM   #981
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,417
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What in the world are you talking about!!

I am not demanding evidence from the FBI.
Yes you must certainly are.


Quote:
I am merely pointing out that the FBI does not have that evidence, and that any evidence they do have, they are not sharing with anyone!
And how do you know what the FBI does and does not have?

Quote:
I.e. if they had evidence of ANY serial numbers, they would be crowing about it from the rooftops, but all is silence. Nothing there. No proof of AA77 (nor of any of the other 3 planes). No serial numbers. Not even on the black boxes.
Again, it is not the FBI's job to explain things to stupid people. Their only failure was to not anticipate a minority of the population that lacks the ability to grasp the obvious.

We have the wreckage and the remains of the passengers. Serial numbers are not relevant because we know where the planes lifted off from and who was on them. We have AA77 and UA93's black boxes.

Quote:
As for all FBI interviews, whatever they were told, these are undisclosed.
I wonder why!
They all say the same thing, AA77 crashed into the Pentagon.


Quote:
Lloyde England was interviewed by the FBI on 9/12/2001, and doubtless he told them his location by the cemetery wall when the pole speared his cab, but that information, like all 911 calls that morning, has been sequestered
.

His story has changed since he talked to the FBI. It is much easier to lie to Truthers because lying to the FBI is an automatic 20 years in prison.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 06:38 AM   #982
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,363
Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
This is the view north of the tower. Can you please point out the "large trees to the north of the heliport tower" you are talking about to me.
Here is a top down view taken on April 6th, 2000. I believe the tree in the photo is the same one in the red circle below. I depends on when the Boger photo of him in the tower was taken as I don't see that same tree if I go back in history using Google Earth to 9/2001. Or maybe it was trimmed by that time?

Last edited by Gamolon; 17th February 2020 at 06:42 AM.
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 07:41 AM   #983
Leftus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,588
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
If that is true, and it is not, it should be simple to find the non-dead members of the flight manifest. Pick one, any one, http://iaff2498.org/news/american-ai...flight-77.html and provide either their non-corpse, or a corpse that wasn't created when the plane crashed.

I'll pick one, almost at random - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Flagg

Former Rear Admiral Wilson Flagg. This is to prevent you from saying he was made up. Thousands served under him. he was officially censured during the Tailhook scandal of 1991 so unless they had this attacked planned out a decade in advanced, he actually existed. Find him. But you won't, you won't even try.

You don't need to find them all, just find one. Hell, you don't need to find them, find evidence they existed on Sept 12. A credit card receipt. Picture from an ATM. Any verifiable paper trail would do.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 07:58 AM   #984
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,363
Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
This is the view north of the tower. Can you please point out the "large trees to the north of the heliport tower" you are talking about to me.
This has to be looking north because of the angled window frame. This must be an older photo where the tree was still there or not trimmed. Red arrows are pointing at the angled window frame.
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 07:59 AM   #985
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Not sure what angle you are looking for so here is some helicopter footage from 911 starting at 4;25

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Just looking down with the tower identifiable. There are some shapes but I'm not sure which is the tower. Before or after the crash.

Last edited by bknight; 17th February 2020 at 08:01 AM. Reason: Added sentence
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:09 AM   #986
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Not sure what angle you are looking for so here is some helicopter footage from 911 starting at 4;25

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
At 4:40 there appears to be two trees to the left of the image around that time, then there is an object to the right of these trees, further toward the right is the helipad. To the audience: is this the tower?
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:13 AM   #987
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
<snip>

I suggest this photo faces the north windows of the tower, with Boger and Kidd facing east, towards the console, which obviously would be built into the enclosed rear part of the office, not in the open viewing area.

<snip>
If I am correct in my assumption that the tower is between trees and the heliport, but you are wrong, in the direction they are facing, from the images I have seen they would be looking more or less southwest.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:18 AM   #988
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Here is a top down view taken on April 6th, 2000. I believe the tree in the photo is the same one in the red circle below. I depends on when the Boger photo of him in the tower was taken as I don't see that same tree if I go back in history using Google Earth to 9/2001. Or maybe it was trimmed by that time?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...a9713efd5d.jpg
In the video that waypastvne posted at the time stamp there does appear to be trees to the right of what I believe to be the tower. Look at the video and let me know what you think.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:38 AM   #989
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,363
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
In the video that waypastvne posted at the time stamp there does appear to be trees to the right of what I believe to be the tower. Look at the video and let me know what you think.
Screenshot of video below.

Yellow arrow is the tree
Red arrow if the tower
Blue arrow is the helipad

At least that's what I can see. I very well may be wrong.

Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:42 AM   #990
Gamolon
Master Poster
 
Gamolon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,363
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
But what Sean Boger said, and what all the other eyewitnesses said, including the many who were not even interviewed by CIT, is that the PLANE flew NORTH OF THE CITGO.
And many of those same witnesses said they saw the plane impact the Pentagon. It doesn't matter north, south, flew backwards, upside down, etc.

Now one person saw a plane lift up and fly over the Pentagon. Many saw it impact the Pentagon. Your argument leads right to the plane impacting the Pentagon.
Gamolon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 12:19 PM   #991
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,028
Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
How about the remains of the passengers and crew?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 12:30 PM   #992
pgimeno
Illuminator
 
pgimeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Spain
Posts: 3,603
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The luggage and clothing burned in the crash.
More probably in the subsequent fire, which lasted long.
pgimeno is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #993
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,417
Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
More probably in the subsequent fire, which lasted long.
Yes.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 02:48 PM   #994
AJM8125
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
AJM8125's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,123
Originally Posted by pgimeno
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
The luggage and clothing burned in the crash.
More probably in the subsequent fire, which lasted long.
There were, of course, things found intact from the wreckage of 77 such as Suzanne Calley's wedding ring, which was returned to her husband and a toddlers pajama top which resides in the collection of The 9/11 Museum in NYC.

I'm sure one could come up with more examples, but why even bother. An intrepid researcher such as rubygray would just handwave it, if she hasnt already.

Chalk it up to no-planers and their special brand of stupidity and move on.
__________________


The better you get, the harder you work.
AJM8125 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 03:27 PM   #995
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
If that is true, and it is not, it should be simple to find the non-dead members of the flight manifest. Pick one, any one, http://iaff2498.org/news/american-ai...flight-77.html and provide either their non-corpse, or a corpse that wasn't created when the plane crashed.

I'll pick one, almost at random - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_Flagg

Former Rear Admiral Wilson Flagg. This is to prevent you from saying he was made up. Thousands served under him. he was officially censured during the Tailhook scandal of 1991 so unless they had this attacked planned out a decade in advanced, he actually existed. Find him. But you won't, you won't even try.

You don't need to find them all, just find one. Hell, you don't need to find them, find evidence they existed on Sept 12. A credit card receipt. Picture from an ATM. Any verifiable paper trail would do.
People who espouse this theory are vague about what is supposed to have happened to the passengers. CIT simply give a link to Operation Northwoods documents and say this is enough for people to work it out for themselves.

But are the passengers supposed to have been taken somewhere and shot? Or are they hidden somewhere or living under assumed identities?

Or are they supposed to have been entirely fictional?

If so then it should be fairly easy to prove this. Another is William E Caswell, who did his PhD at Princeton and has his PhD thesis published in a peer reviewed journal. His thesis adviser is alive and well and still working at Princeton. He left behind a wife and two children. All these stories should be pretty easy to break if they are lies.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 17th February 2020 at 03:33 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 08:37 PM   #996
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 4,417
Here's Operation Northwoods:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

It was one of a dozen Kennedy NSC white-papers wherein an invasion of Cuba was to be initiated either by a real incident (blaming a possible destruction of a Mercury launch on Castro) or by faking an attack.

What Truthers ignore is the fact that Northwoods was immediately dismissed because it was just too stupid to work, and when the public discovered the truth - AND THEY WOULD - everyone involved would hang. It was just a stupid idea based on a request by JFK to brainstorm ideas and never went beyond the white-paper stage. It is proof of nothing other than the Kennedys preoccupation with overthrowing Castro.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 10:52 PM   #997
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Here's Operation Northwoods:



https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf



It was one of a dozen Kennedy NSC white-papers wherein an invasion of Cuba was to be initiated either by a real incident (blaming a possible destruction of a Mercury launch on Castro) or by faking an attack.



What Truthers ignore is the fact that Northwoods was immediately dismissed because it was just too stupid to work, and when the public discovered the truth - AND THEY WOULD - everyone involved would hang. It was just a stupid idea based on a request by JFK to brainstorm ideas and never went beyond the white-paper stage. It is proof of nothing other than the Kennedys preoccupation with overthrowing Castro.
It was too stupid to work and far less stupid than the conspiracy alleged here.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 10:56 PM   #998
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 11,658
Incidentally, Lagasse says he has never seen anything suggesting a south path and that the only official story is the Arlington County After Action Report.

Take a look, it has the same flight path as every other official report

https://911digitalarchive.org/collections/show/51
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th February 2020, 11:41 PM   #999
Redwood
Graduate Poster
 
Redwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,534
Challenge to RubyGray

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubygray
You will be able to provide us with the FBI's long list of aircraft parts matched by serial numbers to N644AA, then? To prove that the parts found were from AA77. Which never left the ground on 9/11/2001, according to the official Bureau of Transportation Statistics.

That will be a first!

http://www.911forum.org.uk/archive/d...thholmgren.htm
Perhaps you could cite a single example where a serial number on any kind of airplane part played any role in "solving a mystery" in any air crash.

This will be a first!

Last edited by Redwood; 17th February 2020 at 11:42 PM. Reason: grammar
Redwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2020, 06:39 AM   #1000
bknight
Master Poster
 
bknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 2,131
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Incidentally, Lagasse says he has never seen anything suggesting a south path and that the only official story is the Arlington County After Action Report.

Take a look, it has the same flight path as every other official report

https://911digitalarchive.org/collections/show/51
Yes, but ruby will hand wave this away because it is a government report, produced by those "responsible" for this attack.
bknight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:01 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.