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Tags anti-semitism , Israel issues , Palestine issues

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Old 7th January 2009, 05:40 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Ah, Victor Davis Hanson. I love him (in a manly, decent way, of course...). He writes with an ever clear eye, and with a true historian's long-term perspective.

His website.
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Old 7th January 2009, 05:58 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What I find astonishing is the UN rep interviewed on the news today said he didn't know if the school had been used by Hamas but it might have been since Hamas had used UN buildings before.

How could the UN not even know what its buildings were being used for?
Obviously, you're not a fan of pro wrestling.

If you were, you'd know of Dick Worley, AKA The Blindest Ref in the World, back in the 1970s and 1980s. Before the match, Dick would pat down both wrestlers to make sure they weren't hiding any foreign objects - bottle caps, bottle openers, broken bottles - in their trunks or boots. Not once did he ever find one.

During the match, if things weren't going well for the bad guy, the bad guy might lean over the ropes and get a foreign object from his manager. A wrestler's manager's job is to provide weapons to the bad guy, and to distract the referee while the bad guy uses the weapon or distract him while the bad guy does something blatantly illegal, like using the ring ropes to choke the good guy.

Not once did Dick Worley ever catch a bad guy using a foreign object. He would often spend a great deal of time yelling at the manager to get off the ring apron while the bad guy worked over the good guy with a bottle cap. Note - bottle caps were a great weapon, because they were small and could be easily used to make a small cut on the forehead. Forehead cuts are great because they bleed profusely, but aren't particularly dangerous.

Occasionally, a bottle cap wouldn't be sufficient weaponry for the bad guy. In that case, a complex bit of choreography might be necessary, culminating in Dick Worley being "accidentally" momentarily knocked unconscious while the bad guy obtained a folding chair and clobbered his opponent with it, rendering the opponent unconscious. At which point, Dick Worley, The Blindest Ref In The World, would wake up long enough to see the bad guy on top of the good guy, and slap the canvas three times, awarding the pin and the win to the bad guy.

Watching U.N. investigators working in a war zone is similar to watching Dick Worley, The Blindest Ref In The World, working in a wrestling ring.

Last edited by BPSCG; 7th January 2009 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 7th January 2009, 06:11 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
Then I guess I missed the history class where Ulysses S. Grant was tried for crimes against humanity for beseiging the city of Vicksburg, Mississippi, during the Civil War. The civilian population there was reduced to eating rats. Did Grant commit crimes against humanity?

President Lincoln imposed a blockade on the Confederacy, to deny them any commerce with the outside world. Did Lincoln commit crimes against humanity?
On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement explicitly charging for the first time ever another government of committing "a crime against humanity" (Wiki).
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Old 7th January 2009, 06:29 AM   #84
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Yesterday Israel killed 75 Palestinians. All but 5....were civilians.
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Old 7th January 2009, 06:34 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Yesterday Israel killed 75 Palestinians. All but 5....were civilians.
If Hamas says so, it must be true!
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Old 7th January 2009, 06:40 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by lupus_in_fabula View Post
Those were rhetorical questions. I was more interested in getting parky76's opinion as to whether Grant and Lincoln committed crimes against humanity, or, more exactly, if he thinks that what they did would constitute crimes against humanity.

Grant's seige of Vicksburg is particularly apposite to the current situation, because Grant wasn't targetting the civilian population of Vicksburg; he was targetting John Pemberton's army, which he'd backed into a defensive position around the city. Once he'd done that, and after a couple of failed attacks, he sealed off all access to it, and six weeks later, Pemberton surrendered his sick and starving army.


Some significant differences between the seige of Vicksburg and the current Gaza situation:
  • Grant sought to conquer and occupy Vicksburg with the ulitmate goal of returning it (and the rest of the Confederacy) to the United States; Israel has no such designs.
  • Grant was fighting an army that clearly distinguished itself from the civilian population. Pemberton's army did not take positions in the city, amidst the civilian population, but rather around the city. As a result, only about a dozen civilians were killed in the seige. Contrast with Hamas's deliberate blending in with the civilian population it supposedly represents, causing many more civilian casualties (speaking of crimes against humanity...).
  • When Pemberton surrendered his 30,000 troops, they were all disarmed and Grant simply allowed all of them to return home to their various states. Hard to imagine where defeated Hamas fighters would go.
More on the seige of Vicksburg.
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Old 7th January 2009, 06:45 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Yesterday Israel killed 75 Palestinians. All but 5....were civilians.
Assuming this is true (remember, truth is the first casualty of war), this means that:
  • Hamas is deliberately taking up positions amongst civilians, which is a war crime, or;
  • Gaza's civilians are stupidly hanging around Hamas's military positions, knowing the danger.
Which do you think it is?

Before you answer that question, parky76, could you please answer my earlier question and tell me if you think that Lincoln's blockade of the Confederacy and Grant's seige of Vicksburg were tantamount to crimes against humanity?
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:02 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
How many Germans who were ten years old in 1945 when World War II ended sought violent revenge in 1952 when they were 17?

How many Japanese who were ten years old in 1945 when World War II ended sought violent revenge in 1952 when they were 17?

Fewer Americans died at Pearl Harbor on December 7 than did in New York and Washington and Pennsylvania on September 11. And yet, the United States did not react with "proportional" force to the Pearl Harbor attack. It did not stop returning fire when an equal number of Japanese soldiers had been killed. The United States reacted with the full fury of its military and civilian might and rained devastation on Japan until the Japanese lost their will to fight.

The Japanese have been among the most peaceful people in the world ever since. I submit that the problem is not that the Israelis have been too harsh, but that they have not been harsh enough.

ETA: Damn you, Texas!
The question isn't about being nice, it's about being effective.
Maybe you remember, that around two decades before WW2, there was a generation of Germans whose parents were killed in WW1 and who ended up a little bitter toward the rest of the world. This included a young WW1 soldier by the name of Adolf Hitler.

Why no major uprising from the Japanese or Germans after WW2? For a number of reasons. Both states were decimated at the end of the war, in all senses. Both states had the weight of the world, the US, newly formed UN, USSR etc, keeping them dissarmed and neutered and focussing heavily on their rebuilding.

But mostly, the wars were fought for the state. With the state crippled, the only model for terrorism would be personal revenge "You killed my parents!" and jumping a couple occupying soldiers can only go so far. And there were minor uprisings against occupation in both countries.

In the middle east, there is a long standing model of religious action, action for the Palestinian people, action for Allah, many models for violence without acting for a state which would not apply to the Germans and Japanese.

In both fronts, the state of affairs was qualitatively different after the defeat of Germany and Japan. After Israel has finished bombing, things will only be quantitatively different. Fewer Hamas resources, soldier rockets etc, yes, but this action will not change the game.

To put it another way. If you hit me, and I hit you back so hard it breaks your arms, you won't be hitting me back. But if I can't hit you hard enough to break your arms, you are going to keep coming back for me.

A military action can be the most effective response, but only if it qualitatively changes the situation.

Last edited by Cavemonster; 7th January 2009 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:31 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Maybe you remember, that around two decades before WW2, there was a generation of Germans whose parents were killed in WW1 and who ended up a little bitter toward the rest of the world. This included a young WW1 soldier by the name of Adolf Hitler.
You may also remember that there was no fighting at all on German soil in World War I. The moment the Allies crossed into Germany, Germany sued for peace.

Germany had been defeated, but had not been prostrated. It had paid a frightful price in terms of soldiers killed, but the civilian population suffered no bombings or seiges. It had not felt the true pain of war.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when you have to call on Captain James T. Kirk for wisdom. From Star Trek's first season, A Taste of Armageddon:

On a diplomatic mission, the Enterprise visits a planet that is waging a destructive war with another planet. The war is fought solely by computer simulation, but the casualties, including the crew of the USS Enterprise, are supposed to be real, sparing the destruction of property. Councilman Anan 7 explains why they do war simulations where people report to real death chambers after a computer decides they have been killed in an "attack." It's because the result of a real war would be... well, let's let Anan 7 explain:

Quote:
Anan 7: "Millions of people horribly killed! Complete destruction of our culture, here yes and the culture on Vendikar. Disaster! Disease! Starvation! Horrible lingering death! Pain and anguish!"

Kirk: "And that seems to frighten you?"

(...snip...)

Kirk: "Death, destruction, disease, horror... that's what war is all about, Anan. That's what makes it a thing to be avoided. But you've made it neat and painless - so neat and painless, you've had no reason to stop it, and you've had it for five hundred years. Since it seems to be the only way I can save my crew, my ship... I'm going to end it for you – one way or another."

(...Kirk destroys the war-simulating computer, severing the connection with the other planet's computer...)

Anan 7: "You realize what you've done!"

Kirk: "Yes, I do. I've given you back the horrors of war. Vendikar will now assume that you have violated the treaty and are preparing to wage real war with real weapons. They'll want to do the same... only the next attack they launch will do more than count up numbers on a computer. They'll destroy your cities, devastate your planet. You, of course, will want to retaliate; if I were you, I'd start making bombs. Yes, councilman, you have a real war on your hands. You can either wage it with real weapons, or you might consider an alternative – put a stop to it! Make peace."
A society that doesn't know the real horrors of war won't recoil from war.
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:42 AM   #90
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When do you expect the Palestinians to realize that war is horrible? They seem pretty slow learners.
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:43 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The question isn't about being nice, it's about being effective.
Maybe you remember, that around two decades before WW2, there was a generation of Germans whose parents were killed in WW1 and who ended up a little bitter toward the rest of the world. This included a young WW1 soldier by the name of Adolf Hitler.
What a horrible war! It was so bad that poor little Adolph's father died from it 11 years before it even began, while his mother bravely held off the enemy hordes until 1907, 7 years before the war began.

Here's their grave: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Leondi...aveCloseup.jpg

They managed to kill Hitler's father by making him suddenly drop dead while he was drinking a glass of wine in a hotel bar, and by giving his mother breast cancer.

Oh, the humanity!

Cavemonster, you really should check your facts before posting. Not doing so causes one to question everything you say here.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:01 AM   #92
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Didn't his testicle get shot off in the war, or is that an urban myth? Not quite like losing your parent, but I'd certainly be quite irritated.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:08 AM   #93
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Points scoring aside, I do think that Cavemonster's central point is valid... certainly my understanding was that bitterness surrounding the Great War combined with being squeezed until their pips (or pip in the case of Hitler) squeaked was a contributing factor in Hitler's rise to power.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Didn't his testicle get shot off in the war, or is that an urban myth? Not quite like losing your parent, but I'd certainly be quite irritated.
Urban legend.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:23 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What a horrible war! It was so bad that poor little Afolph's father died from it 11 years before it even began, while his mother bravely held off the enemy hordes until 1907, 7 years before the war began.

Here's their grave: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Leondi...aveCloseup.jpg

They managed to kill Hitler's father by making him suddenly drop dead while he was drinking a glass of wine in a hotel bar, and by giving his mother breast cancer.
I didn't mean to imply his parents were killed in the war, that was poor writing on my part, not poor fact checking. I brought him up as a member of that generation.

The point is that Hitler and many of his generation were bitter, to a great extent due to their losses and depravations during the 1st war and grew up to strike back violently. Germany was given as an example of how that couldn't happen and I was giving a counterexample.

You strike at someone, you make them an enemy. Unless you do a damned good job of making it just about impossible for them to strike back, you've got something to deal with. I think it's at least uncommon in history that a group of people who have been bombed, and have the means to strike back have not done so in some way.

I don't see how Gaza after these bombings will be significantly different from Gaza before them. Israel seems to believe that the Palestinian people will collectively give up Hamas, saying "It's not worth it" but civilian deaths and humanitarian disaster are some of the best recruiting tools for groups like Hamas. If they were self contained, you could just kill the party leaders and be done with it, but Iran and others are going to continue to fund whatever radical party is in power.
Quote:

Oh, the humanity!

Cavemonster, you really should check your facts before posting. Not doing so causes one to question everything you say here.
And, please, tone down the drama. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. I think it get's harder to have a real exchange of ideas when sarcasm starts pumping in.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:31 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The question isn't about being nice, it's about being effective.
Maybe you remember, that around two decades before WW2, there was a generation of Germans whose parents were killed in WW1 and who ended up a little bitter toward the rest of the world. This included a young WW1 soldier by the name of Adolf Hitler.
Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
You may also remember that there was no fighting at all on German soil in World War I. The moment the Allies crossed into Germany, Germany sued for peace.

Germany had been defeated, but had not been prostrated. It had paid a frightful price in terms of soldiers killed, but the civilian population suffered no bombings or seiges. It had not felt the true pain of war.
[...]
A society that doesn't know the real horrors of war won't recoil from war.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Didn't his testicle get shot off in the war, or is that an urban myth? Not quite like losing your parent, but I'd certainly be quite irritated.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Points scoring aside, I do think that Cavemonster's central point is valid... certainly my understanding was that bitterness surrounding the Great War combined with being squeezed until their pips (or pip in the case of Hitler) squeaked was a contributing factor in Hitler's rise to power.
It wasn't that the civilian population of Germany didn't feel anything about the war: the food situation was precarious, and most people must have known at least someone who had fallen on the battlefield.

The resentment was over the Treaty of Versailles, which was felt as overly harsh, and over the feeling that the German army hadn't been defeated. This was perpetrated in the "Dolchstoss" or "backstab" myth: that Germany hadn't been defeated on the battlefront, but by internal opposition (social democrats, jews and other usual suspects). This myth was fuelled not only by Hitler, but notably by Ludendorff who, as Chief of Staff, had urged his boss Hindenburg and the Kaiser to surrender as a collapse of the front was imminent. (The front, at that time, btw, was still in France). After the armistice, the Allies allowed the German army to get home in an orderly fashion, so the German population didn't see anything indicating the real military defeat.

The testicle story about Hitler is fake. He did get temporarily blinded due to a gas attack. Hitler wasn't bitter about the war as such: he later called it the happiest time of his life. He even had the most dangerous job on the front, as a runner, and never vied for promotion.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
To put it another way. If you hit me, and I hit you back so hard it breaks your arms, you won't be hitting me back. But if I can't hit you hard enough to break your arms, you are going to keep coming back for me.

A military action can be the most effective response, but only if it qualitatively changes the situation.
If you only break someone's arm, in two months time it's healed and he can hit you again - and will have the more motive to do so. So breaking the other's arm is not enough in this scenario - you have to kill him.
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Old 7th January 2009, 08:39 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I didn't mean to imply his parents were killed in the war, that was poor writing on my part, not poor fact checking. I brought him up as a member of that generation.

The point is that Hitler and many of his generation were bitter, to a great extent due to their losses and depravations during the 1st war and grew up to strike back violently. Germany was given as an example of how that couldn't happen and I was giving a counterexample.

You strike at someone, you make them an enemy. Unless you do a damned good job of making it just about impossible for them to strike back, you've got something to deal with. I think it's at least uncommon in history that a group of people who have been bombed, and have the means to strike back have not done so in some way.

I don't see how Gaza after these bombings will be significantly different from Gaza before them. Israel seems to believe that the Palestinian people will collectively give up Hamas, saying "It's not worth it" but civilian deaths and humanitarian disaster are some of the best recruiting tools for groups like Hamas. If they were self contained, you could just kill the party leaders and be done with it, but Iran and others are going to continue to fund whatever radical party is in power.
It wasn't the war losses that fueled the German populace for revenge, it was the post-war terms imposed on them which wrecked the German economy and took away former German lands such as Danzig (Gdansk) and the Alcase-Lorraine region.

I have ancestors who were part of the expulsion of Germans from the Alcase-Lorraine region after WWI, which is why they emigrated to the US. Family rumor has it my great-great grandfather supported Hitler in hopes of getting his property back. But he was an anomaly, no one else in my family had sympathy for the Nazis or Hitler.

Quote:
And, please, tone down the drama. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. I think it get's harder to have a real exchange of ideas when sarcasm starts pumping in.
Sorry, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt next time. But I'm a very sarcastic person sometimes, and you hung that one right over the middle of the plate!
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Old 7th January 2009, 09:04 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
If you only break someone's arm, in two months time it's healed and he can hit you again - and will have the more motive to do so. So breaking the other's arm is not enough in this scenario - you have to kill him.
The main point was, you need to substantially change your opponent for violence to be effective at settling a dispute that each of you has an essential interest in. I want to extend the metaphor too much, but you don't need to utterly destroy your enemy. The change does need to be drastic though, a divided Germany, and occupied Japan.

Maybe you cut the arms off.
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Old 7th January 2009, 03:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
Assuming this is true (remember, truth is the first casualty of war), this means that:
  • Hamas is deliberately taking up positions amongst civilians, which is a war crime, or;
  • Gaza's civilians are stupidly hanging around Hamas's military positions, knowing the danger.
Which do you think it is?

Before you answer that question, parky76, could you please answer my earlier question and tell me if you think that Lincoln's blockade of the Confederacy and Grant's seige of Vicksburg were tantamount to crimes against humanity?
I will say it again: it is a crime against humanity to deny food and medicine to a civilian population. Even if the civilian population is supposedly your "enemy".

If the Allies kept food and medicine from cities in Germany, then the Allies did indeed commit war crimes. But we already knew that.

If Lincoln ordered troops to keep food and meds from a Southern city, that was also a war crime. I have no double standards when it comes to civilians and basic needs.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:02 PM   #100
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You are simply wrong. You can't just say that 'war crimes' and 'crimes against humanity' are whatever you want them to be. These things have definitions.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:03 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Your argument is pathetic to the point of comedy. And I submit, with your attitudes, you would never, ever win a war. You have not even the most remote understanding of how these things work.
You realize that you just described about oh probably at least about 90%+ of all people who discuss it right? (Knock that up closer to 99 regarding war in the Middle East)

Personally I think if we baked a nice apple cobbler and knocked on their door we could have coffee and chat while listening to Barry Manilow and talk it all out, but hey that's me.

Last edited by bigred; 7th January 2009 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:18 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Personally I think if we baked a nice apple cobbler and knocked on their door we could have coffee and chat while listening to Barry Manilow and talk it all out, but hey that's me.
Not Barry Manilow; Friend and Lover (circa 1970 or so):

Quote:
I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I knew a man that I did not care for
And then one day this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
And now this man he is a friend of mine

Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

Don't be afraid of love
(Don't be afraid) don't be afraid
Don't be afraid to love
(Listen to me)
Everybody needs a little love
Everybody needs somebody
That they can be thinking of
So reach out

Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together.....
My Ed, what a stupid song, right up there with Lennon's Imagine.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:21 PM   #103
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Quote:
If the Allies kept food and medicine from cities in Germany, then the Allies did indeed commit war crimes
If? IF? You think the allies allowed any supplies of food, medicine, or anything else into Germany during WWII, if they could possibly help it? Of course not. They also bombed the bejesus out of them, too.

In another thread you claimed support for Venezuela's "The Jews killed Jesus" Chavez's action of expelling the Israeli ambassador over Gaza. Well, I fully expect you to demand that the USA expel the British Ambassador, until Britian extradites to the USA all surviving WWII RAF and Royal Navy veterans, to stand trial as the war criminals that they are.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:22 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
Personally I think if we baked a nice apple cobbler and knocked on their door we could have coffee and chat while listening to Barry Manilow and talk it all out, but hey that's me.
Sounds nice. Though I think holding hands and singing Michael Row The Boat To Shore, Kumbia and Blowin In The Wind more conducive to peace. And flying kites wouldn't be bad either.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:24 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
You realize that you just described about oh probably at least about 90%+ of all people who discuss it right? (Knock that up closer to 99 regarding war in the Middle East)
(Sigh)

Sadly, I belong to the other 1%.
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Old 7th January 2009, 04:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
Not Barry Manilow; what a stupid song, right up there with Lennon's Imagine.
war mongering brute!!
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:09 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The point is that Hitler and many of his generation were bitter, to a great extent due to their losses and depravations during the 1st war and grew up to strike back violently. Germany was given as an example of how that couldn't happen and I was giving a counterexample.

Actually as far as people like Hitler were concerned (i.e. German soldiers) the reason they were so bitter after WWI was because they felt like they were winning, and regarded the Kaiser's surrender as the ultimate act of cowardice and betrayal against them and Germany.
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Old 7th January 2009, 07:41 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
WWII has been mentioned a couple of times. I agree with the posters that war crimes undoubtedly occurred that can be compared to and are probably worse than those in Gaza, but isn't one difference that that was a finite and winnable conflict? I mean, if the war dragged on for a few decades then OK. A lot of the objections to Israel's actions would go away if people believed the situation was winnable by them in this way. Mine certainly would.

.
The reason it was finite was because it was fought to complete and utter defeat of the Axis powers. Had it been fought under the rules Israel is held to it would never have ended. As to winnable, The winner of WW2 was NEVER certain for the Allies. It was touch and go for the first 3 years.
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Old 7th January 2009, 09:57 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Texas View Post
I don't understand using the IRA as an example or model on how to start a dialog with Hamas. As far as I know, the IRA was not trying to destroy England, it just wanted England out of Ireland so there was a logical basis for negotiation. Given the stated goals of Hamas which is total war and eventual destruction of Israel the better analogy, albeit on a much smaller scale, is actually closer to WW2 than the "troubles".
Again, I'm not making a direct argument on the current fighting, but do you not see the flaw in your dismissal of the IRA example? Do you think the only thing the Palestinians want-- and please don't try to separate them from Hamas, you may as well be saying that Libertarians, Democrats or Republicans are separate from Americans-- is to completely destroy Israel?
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Old 7th January 2009, 10:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
Again, I'm not making a direct argument on the current fighting, but do you not see the flaw in your dismissal of the IRA example? Do you think the only thing the Palestinians want-- and please don't try to separate them from Hamas, you may as well be saying that Libertarians, Democrats or Republicans are separate from Americans-- is to completely destroy Israel?
Yes. I am sorry to be so blunt.
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Old 7th January 2009, 10:37 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
Again, I'm not making a direct argument on the current fighting, but do you not see the flaw in your dismissal of the IRA example? Do you think the only thing the Palestinians want-- and please don't try to separate them from Hamas, you may as well be saying that Libertarians, Democrats or Republicans are separate from Americans-- is to completely destroy Israel?
Have you seen the protests/rallies of late? What do you think "Free Palestine" means? What do you think "End The Occupation" means? What do you think the chant "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea" means?

The standard Palestinian goal is the destruction of Israel.
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Old 7th January 2009, 10:45 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Have you seen the protests/rallies of late? What do you think "Free Palestine" means? What do you think "End The Occupation" means? What do you think the chant "Palestine will be free, from the river to the sea" means?

The standard Palestinian goal is the destruction of Israel.
It's amazing that some simply refuse to take groups or countries at their word. Iran is another example. To do otherwise is just wishful thinking and very dangerous.
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Old 7th January 2009, 11:24 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
Assuming this is true (remember, truth is the first casualty of war), this means that:
  • Hamas is deliberately taking up positions amongst civilians, which is a war crime, or;
  • Gaza's civilians are stupidly hanging around Hamas's military positions, knowing the danger.
Which do you think it is?

Before you answer that question, parky76, could you please answer my earlier question and tell me if you think that Lincoln's blockade of the Confederacy and Grant's seige of Vicksburg were tantamount to crimes against humanity?


Not that I actually disagree with you but why is it that these are the only two options that come to your mind?

Not

Israeli forces could give two ships who they blow up, they are pissed and showing force.

And its really interesting to me how they are notifying people by text message on cell phones, "stay away from this building, we're gonna blow it up"

Don't these people live in abject poverty? Yet they all have cell phones?

I agree with the point that just because crimes against civilians were used in the past doesn't mean its ok to use them now....but then again Hiroshima seems to have done the job nicely.

As I pointed out before, my husband is from Cyprus, and in Cyprus they have the Turks and the Greeks in a very similar posiition. Also a lot of very angry Greek Cypriots who are pissed at being dumped into poverty after the Turks came in and stole their land. Oddly though, when is the last time you heard about bombing in Cyprus and all hell breaking loose.

This has nothing to do with territory, nothing to do with everyone hating the Jews. Its got to do with this area being a religious holy land. Frankly nuking it would solve it forever.
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Old 7th January 2009, 11:46 PM   #114
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I'm getting annoyed by the Hamas apologists here. Apparently Israel should develop a "s**t happens" mentality when it comes to rocket attacks. Israel has a compelling state interest to defend it's own people. My heart truly goes out the people of Gaza and I wish they had the sense next time around to elect a government who would make peace with Israel.

My question to those people is this; if my neighbor was firing shots into my house and killed someone in it and I return fire, as I believe is my right, and kill ten people who were standing around him cheering him on as he was firing (or he moved into a crowd and continued firing) am I at fault for defending myself and my home?
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Old 7th January 2009, 11:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
This has nothing to do with territory, nothing to do with everyone hating the Jews. Its got to do with this area being a religious holy land. Frankly nuking it would solve it forever.
Yeah; and eating the Chinese would solve the world's population problem.
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Old 7th January 2009, 11:54 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Kthulhut Fhtagn View Post
Yeah; and eating the Chinese would solve the world's population problem.
Yeah but, ya know what they say, you get hungry an hour later. I prefer Italian.
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Old 8th January 2009, 12:00 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Yeah but, ya know what they say, you get hungry an hour later. I prefer Italian.
Thank you Randfan, that was one of the better jokes I've heard today.
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Old 8th January 2009, 06:28 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Kthulhut Fhtagn View Post
Yeah; and eating the Chinese would solve the world's population problem.
Originally Posted by RandFan View Post
Yeah but, ya know what they say, you get hungry an hour later. I prefer Italian.
[NSFW]
Eating Chinese or Italians - they all smell like fish down there...







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Old 8th January 2009, 06:34 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
And its really interesting to me how they are notifying people by text message on cell phones, "stay away from this building, we're gonna blow it up"

Don't these people live in abject poverty? Yet they all have cell phones?
Yes, they do.

Hey, where did you think those photos of all those wounded Palestinians were coming from when the Israelis blocked media access to Gaza? Can you say "Motorola?"

You're welcome.

(Of course, if Hamas had an air raid system, they could warn their citizens of an impending attack. But the only thing Hamas likes as much as a dead Israeli is a dead Palestinian, so...)

Last edited by BPSCG; 8th January 2009 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 8th January 2009, 07:12 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Aussie Thinker View Post
It seems to any reasonable person that Israel is reacting to0 strongly.

1.Killing hundreds of innocents in response to the killing of a few innocents.
2. Using high tech air strikes and indestructible M1 tanks against homemade rockets mortars, AK47’s and rocks !

But….

What are they supposed to do?

Lets take a hypothetical.

The Mexicans elect a government that has one of its specific platforms the elimination of the US.. (they still hate them for stealing California and Texas etc etc.)

Of course the US would just laugh it off.. an inane threat.

Now all of a sudden crappy homemade rockets start flying from Tijuana into San Diego.

No big deal.. but a few people get killed.

US would protest immediately and demand the Mexican Government shut down these terrorist attacks…

But they keep happening.. in fact are SANCTIONED by the Mexican government.

Would the US put up with this for 3 YEARS !!!!! Like the Israelies did ????

I don’t think so !

If the situation was happening in your home you would not give a rats arse about how many innocent Mexicans were killed.. you would just want the rockets stopped !

So you tell me what the Israelies should do ???


Nearly match the situation. but first you have to add that the US started encroaching (rightfully or not) the territory of Mexicans with settlers, did embargo, on regular basis kill abunch of people by targeted assasination, etc...

I think both side should be bitchslapped silly, until core fundementalist palestinian and Israeli can only hear the ringing bell in their head, but I also see a lot of tendency here and on most US forum to ignore a lot of the bad stuff Israel made with time, or to just see it as a valid answer.

Also don't forget that politics LIKE to have a foe they can point out to their citizen. And I have the bad feeling that indeed some Israeli politics have a vested interrest that the situation don't normalize. That might be pure paranoia from me.
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