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Tags Israel issues , Palestine issues

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Old 6th June 2009, 02:04 PM   #1
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Arguments Against Israel

For the sake of skeptical inquiry, I am curious how would you respond to these?

Mod WarningI have removed what appears to be a quote or quotes of someone else's work. As a general rule you should always provide a link to any quoted work and provide a citation. Please read Rule 4 of your Membership Agreement for further details.
Posted By:Darat

Last edited by Darat; 7th June 2009 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:09 PM   #2
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too....many....words!!

can't....process!!!!!!
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:26 PM   #3
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agree with parky. tl;dr.
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:36 PM   #4
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You did not made any attempt at presenting an argument. The wall of text you cited include many falsehoods and inaccuracies. Just clearing these will take time, and won't really add for a discussion.

Two examples:

Quote:
Even the Israeli investigations found Ariel Sharon and the IDF responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres.
The Sabra and Shatilla massacre was perpetrated by Cristian militia allied with Israel, not by Israeli soldiers. Sharon was find indirectly responsible, since it was argued that he should have foreseen the massacre, and should have intervened to stop it.

Interestingly, the person responsible for the massacre served as a mister in several Lebanese governments, before being assassinated in 2002.
Quote:
After the civil war ended in 1990 Hobeika became Minister for the Displaced. In October 1992 he was appointed Minister for Social Affairs and the Handicapped. He was reassigned to the Ministry of Electricity and Water in 1996, a period which saw massive power projects in Baddawi and Zahrani, Zouk And Baalbeck, and massive electrical grid installation and distribution throughout Lebanon, including the outlying areas still in turmoil with Israeli Forces in the south, hence the progress was too slow compared to the massive increase in the Megawatts needed, since little electricity projects were accomplished over 18 years of civil unrest, mainly because of the Israeli operation Grapes of Wrath. In 1998, General Emile Lahoud became president of Lebanon and appointed Selim Hoss Prime Minister.In 2000 Hobeika lost his parliament seat, due to Syrian active interference in the Polls against Hobeika.


The Ben Gurion quote given here is false.

Quote:
Hoax Quote
In addition, the MSU unabashedly used a fake quote to promote their Anti-Zionism Week. The publicity material included the following alleged quote attributed to former Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion: "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Phil Schlesinger, a UC Irvine student, requested a source for the alleged statement. In a June 2 email, MSU representative Fatima Ibrahim claimed that Ben-Gurion made the statement to his General Staff in May 1948, and she cited the "Koenig Report," a leaked 1976 policy report by Israel Koenig, the Northern District Commissioner of Israel’s Interior Ministry.
In a second email that day, she advised Schlesinger to "read the memorandum closely and if you still can’t find it, you can tell me and I will bring the whole memorandum with the quote pointed out."
CAMERA provided Schlesinger with the "Koenig Report" which does not contain the alleged statement or any other by Ben-Gurion. When confronted with this information, Ibrahim revised her story:
first of all I am not going to spend time 1 week before finals to search for the quote (which is your responsibility)...the quote is a famous quote that can be looked up in many books such as "BEN-GURION, A BIOGRAPHY", by Michael Ben-Zohar [sic].

"Remember," she added, "that the Koenig Report was your initial suggestion, which is not where WE got it from."
CAMERA contacted Bar-Zohar, who confirmed that the "quote definitely isn’t" in his book. Schlesinger requested that the MSU retract the quote, but the group has so far refused
It is sometimes attributed to one Israel Koenig
Quote:
Commissioner Israel Koenig NEVER WROTE:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.
I stopped here. I see no point in going through all this wall of text and fixing factual errors, falsehoods, and lies by omission. What's the point?
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:38 PM   #5
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Then Parky has already won.....

Here's another:

Quote:
I am aware it is more complex than that but when it boils down to it, the Jews just arrived on the Palestinians land after World war 2. They broke away from the commonwealth and started wars with the arabs and took even more land.

The Palestinians shouldn't have to do any compromising, it's their homes and land. Israel

just annexes more every two years or so!

Israel is more of an American foothold in the middle east than a genuine state : /.
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
You did not made any attempt at presenting an argument. The wall of text you cited include many falsehoods and inaccuracies. Just clearing these will take time, and won't really add for a discussion.
The position of neutrality is not always an easy road to take.
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:41 PM   #7
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Yeaaa!!!! I win!!!! I win!!!

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Old 6th June 2009, 02:48 PM   #8
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Where is all this from?
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Old 6th June 2009, 02:52 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bombastic Penguin View Post
The position of neutrality is not always an easy road to take.
Neutral as in not interested in having an opinion? Or objective, as in wanting to understand the history, with a minimum amount of bias? (We all have our biases.)

Anyway, I gave two examples which included a misleading argument and a flat out fabrication. I picked these two because I did not have to do any research to refute them. Going through all of this will take hours, and will be boring. What exactly you expect the posters here to do? Go through all this and find all the errors and inaccuracies?
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Last edited by Doctor Evil; 6th June 2009 at 03:28 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 6th June 2009, 03:21 PM   #10
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Putting the text into google finds that it seems to come from David Duke's website, or at least he quotes it approvingly.

'nuff said.

P.S.

To make clear, I'm not claiming "bombastic penguin" is a Duke supporter. He probably just wants to see what's wrong with such arguments, which might seem convincing at first blush.

Last edited by Skeptic; 6th June 2009 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 6th June 2009, 03:35 PM   #11
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Give it time.
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Old 6th June 2009, 07:08 PM   #12
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Illuminati

http://www.thelowestroom.com/resources.htm
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Old 6th June 2009, 08:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
To make clear, I'm not claiming "bombastic penguin" is a Duke supporter. He probably just wants to see what's wrong with such arguments, which might seem convincing at first blush.
I know they're wrong. I just trying to get a different perspective, and more information from others.

Kind of like how experts consult other experts.

If someone could reccomend some book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and its history I would appreciate it.
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Old 6th June 2009, 08:43 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bombastic Penguin View Post
If someone could reccomend some book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and its history I would appreciate it.
Looking for a book is a minefield, as different authors sometimes let their politics influence their conclusions. (By deciding that a certain fact is more important then another.)

Thus, I would recommend books written in a more dry (academic) style. Two books I have read, at least partially, are

* 1948 by Benny Morris, which covers the 1948 war (which actually started in late 1947 and ended in 1949).
* Israel by Martin Gilbert, which is a general history of Israel, and will touch on many of the events included in the rant you cited. (Some of the events have nothing to do with the Palestinians, such as the events leading to the 1967 war.)
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Old 6th June 2009, 08:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Bombastic Penguin View Post
I know they're wrong. I just trying to get a different perspective, and more information from others.

Kind of like how experts consult other experts.

If someone could reccomend some book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and its history I would appreciate it.
I found this useful.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Palestine-Is.../dp/1851686118
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Old 7th June 2009, 09:08 AM   #16
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Better books without the inflammatory cover and misleading quotes and dates:

The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948

And to counter the sensationalist claims of new historians like Morris, Pappe, Finkelstein, etc., which include some of the above falsified quotes:

Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians (Israeli History, Politics and Society)
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Old 7th June 2009, 10:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Better books without the inflammatory cover and misleading quotes and dates:

The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948

And to counter the sensationalist claims of new historians like Morris, Pappe, Finkelstein, etc., which include some of the above falsified quotes:

Fabricating Israeli History: The New Historians (Israeli History, Politics and Society)
by the looks of it they are books with a Zionist bias and no doubt offer no realistic info on the ill treatment of the Palestinians
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Old 7th June 2009, 12:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Where is all this from?
A friend linked this thread to me:

http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=748673
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Old 7th June 2009, 04:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Better books without the inflammatory cover and misleading quotes and dates:
It provides two essays, one by a Jewish Historian, one by a Palestinian scholar, who both state their cases. Are you saying the Jewish historian is providing misleading quotes and dates?

As for the cover, my copy has a different picture, but are you claiming the picture on the edition Amazon is selling is not factual?
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Old 17th June 2009, 08:36 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It provides two essays, one by a Jewish Historian, one by a Palestinian scholar, who both state their cases. Are you saying the Jewish historian is providing misleading quotes and dates?
Depends how you frame the quotes and dates.

Quote:
As for the cover, my copy has a different picture, but are you claiming the picture on the edition Amazon is selling is not factual?
So you're saying the cover isn't inflammatory and doesn't present the conflict in the most objective approach possible?
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Old 17th June 2009, 03:10 PM   #21
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The cover says, "Israel = evil". But, for some, that is "objective".
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Old 17th June 2009, 06:01 PM   #22
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I still have my well-worn paperback 1973 First Edition BATTLEGROUND.
It came out early in that year, and by October, well, we know what transpired.

There is a web-based version online, but it is hard to read it because the links are not working properly to go from Chapter to Chapter. (Replace the three-digit numbers in the URL to proceed forward, as the full book is archived in sections 001-041)

by Shmuel (Samuel) Katz
Fact and Fantasy of the Mideast conflict

START http://www.ourjerusalem.com/series/s...ground001.html
(continued 002 - 041)
END http://www.ourjerusalem.com/series/s...ground041.html
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Old 18th June 2009, 04:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
Depends how you frame the quotes and dates.
Half the book is devoted to the views of a Jewish historian who is clearly a supporter of Israel, half to a Palestinian scholar. My copy had a different picture. If you don't like the image of a tank and a child, move the tanks away from the children.
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Old 18th June 2009, 06:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
*snip* If you don't like the image of a tank and a child, move the tanks away from the children.
The tanks are sent into combat because they are goaded into that action by the parents & relatives (and political leaders) of said children, who are making every effort to incite war.
As far as the Palestinians are concerned, the images of IDF troops facing against their kids throwing rocks is exactly a win-win for them.
They learned this lesson well, in Lebanon.
(See: RPG Kids)

Let's look closely at why tanks are used by the IDF.
Gaza 2008. There were no tanks in Gaza until November/December 2008.
Apparently, the threat of tanks rolling in was not sufficient to stop rocketing and mortar fire --- murderous attempts against Israeli kids and families by the Gaza kid's parents, uncles, cousins, brothers.

And then the argument goes around and around ---
It runs like this --- Well, the Palestinians are resisting "Occupation" (blockade, land theft, apartheid, etc etc) and what do you expect from 40+ years of being occupied? If only the IDF would withdraw (and the Jewish civilians along with them) from the "Palestinian Lands" that were captured in June 1967, then there would be Peace.

But wait --- that avoids basic underlying claims: That Israel itself is occupying "Palestinian Lands" that were stolen/occupied in 1947-1948.
That the creation of Israel itself is simply a "catastrophe" (and there is a word for that -- naqba).
That the entire land is an Islamic WAAQF, and cannot be left in the hands of the Jews.
That resistance and armed struggle must extend beyond those living in the land, and include the entire Islamic World to liberate Palestine from Jewish hegemony.

And in the face of all that, Israel maintains their tanks on the ready.
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Old 18th June 2009, 11:57 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
My copy had a different picture. If you don't like the image of a tank and a child, move the tanks away from the children.
So you agree that this other version of the cover with the tank is inflammatory. Thanks for the admission.
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Old 18th June 2009, 08:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
So you agree that this other version of the cover with the tank is inflammatory. Thanks for the admission.
well it certainly seems to have inflamed you....
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Old 19th June 2009, 11:49 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
well it certainly seems to have inflamed you....
Don't give him too much credit. But thanks for that prodding attempt.
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Old 19th June 2009, 09:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
So you agree that this other version of the cover with the tank is inflammatory. Thanks for the admission.
The book is good, and has nothing to do with the cover, which was chosen by the publisher. My copy of the book does not have that cover. My guess is it was chosen to catch the eye and sell more books. I don't know what you think I am admitting on my part, since I did not write or publish the book. Do you think I am part of some global conspiracy to rule the world?
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Old 20th June 2009, 08:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Do you think I am part of some global conspiracy to rule the world?
Not a conspiracy nutjob like many on this forum. Where did you pull this from anyways?
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Old 20th June 2009, 08:16 PM   #30
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Argue against Israel all you like, but if you want them Israelis to leave Isreal, you'd best bring a lot of blood and iron, and some smarts, unlike what the garden variety Arabs brought with them when the last four tests of steel occurred.

So far, Israelis have shown that, all talk considered, the law of blood and iron draws lines on the map. See also Sri Lanka. And lately, it seems the government in Pakistan is abiding by that law.

DR
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Old 20th June 2009, 08:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Argue against Israel all you like, but if you want them Israelis to leave Isreal, you'd best bring a lot of blood and iron, and some smarts, unlike what the garden variety Arabs brought with them when the last four tests of steel occurred.

DR
who is asking Israelis to leave Israel? Ive only seen folks asking Israelis to return to Israel.
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Old 21st June 2009, 05:01 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
who is asking Israelis to leave Israel? I've only seen folks asking Israelis to return to Israel.
This is incorrect. In 1949, when the War ended, there were cease-fire lines, not borders.

At best, the demand is that those 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines should be honored once again, and that they should form the basis for the BORDERS of a multi-part Palestinian State.

That leaves a basic question unanswered: Was the State of Israel truly defined legally by the demarcations of the Rhodes Armistice Lines in 1949? In other words, was everything beyond those lines NOT Israel? Or was there a legitimate Israeli interest in those lands prior to the signing of the 1949 Agreements, and did Israel express a desire to enter into further negotiations to resolve any land dispute at that time?

That's a legitimate question we skeptics need to evaluate.
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Old 21st June 2009, 05:17 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
This is incorrect. In 1949, when the War ended, there were cease-fire lines, not borders.

At best, the demand is that those 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines should be honored once again, and that they should form the basis for the BORDERS of a multi-part Palestinian State.

That leaves a basic question unanswered: Was the State of Israel truly defined legally by the demarcations of the Rhodes Armistice Lines in 1949? In other words, was everything beyond those lines NOT Israel? Or was there a legitimate Israeli interest in those lands prior to the signing of the 1949 Agreements, and did Israel express a desire to enter into further negotiations to resolve any land dispute at that time?

That's a legitimate question we skeptics need to evaluate.
The USA, the United Nations, and most other countries on Earth, recognizes Israel's right to exist and excersize soverigenity over the territory within the 1967 borders. I agree with this.

This is Israel...and this is where Israelis belong.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
who is asking Israelis to leave Israel? Ive only seen folks asking Israelis to return to Israel.
I was responding to the OP. Israel is such territory as Israelis can take, and hold, through their determined efforts, be they forceful, negotiated, or various combinations of such.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:11 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I was responding to the OP. Israel is such territory as Israelis can take, and hold, through their determined efforts, be they forceful, negotiated, or various combinations of such.
The West Bank has not been annexed by Israel. Annexation is the first and last step a country takes when it wants to expand its legal authority and boundaries. As Israel has NOT annexed the West Bank, it is NOT part of Israel, by any legal definition.

and BTW, by your definition, Poland was part of Germany after 1938...since Germany took the land through determined efforts...and forceful means. why did Britain declare war on Germany after Poland was invaded? it was none of their business right?

Last edited by Thunder; 21st June 2009 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:13 AM   #36
webfusion
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"1967 borders."

There were no borders in 1967.

Sorry, but your saying so don't make it so.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
"1967 borders."

There were no borders in 1967.

Sorry, but your saying so don't make it so.
the lines that demarcated Israeli soveriegnity as of June 4th, 1967.

happy?



why do Neo-Zionists love to re-write history?
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
the lines that demarcated Israeli soveriegnity as of June 4th, 1967.

happy?


Nope.

The 1949 Rhodes Armisitice Agreements did not "demarcate Israeli sovereignity" at all.

In fact, just the opposite.


Here is the precise language within the Accords themselves --
  • The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary, and is delineated without prejudice to rights, claims and positions of either Party to the Armistice as regards ultimate settlement of the Palestine question.

Why do you love to refuse to read the historical record? Doesn't it embarrass you just a little bit to be on a skeptics board and fail so often with your bogus claims?

The demilitarized zones and demarcations established by the armistice proved to be completely porous to Palestinian guerillas as well as Egyptian regular Army units, and to Israeli reprisals. Egypt also failed to abide by non-belligerency provisions of the agreement, and blockaded Israeli shipping though the Suez canal.

All leading up to the 1956 War, and ultimately, to the 1967 War.
And ultimately, to the 2009 War, as Palestinian guerillas continued to operate.
As they do, to this very day, rejecting Israel itself.
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Old 21st June 2009, 06:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Why do you love to refuse to read the historical record? Doesn't it embarrass you just a little bit to be on a skeptics board and fail so often with your bogus claims?
Israel has not annexed the West Bank. Therefore the West Bank is not part of Israel.

And according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the West Bank is NOT part of Israel.

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton57/st01_01.pdf

Last edited by Thunder; 21st June 2009 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 21st June 2009, 07:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by parky76 View Post
Israel has not annexed the West Bank. Therefore the West Bank is not part of Israel.
So what?

Puerto Rico is not part of the USA.
But they are US citizens.

Go figure.
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