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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues

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Old 25th March 2013, 04:41 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Bull crap.

My position is clear, and has not changed. Israel kills civilians. Israel usually takes reasonable precautions against doing so unnecessarily. Israel causes more civilian deaths than it suffers. As these are absolutes, any attempt to paint these as "anti-Israel" statements is silly, and indicative of someone that is either incapable or unwilling to view such things objectively.
I have never accused you of changing your position. Neither have I accused of your position being 'anti-Israel'. I just simply think your logic is false regardless where these hostilities were to happen. I have never denied that Gaza suffers more civilian deaths due to IDF operations than Israeli civilian deaths due to attacks residing from the various Palestinian terrorist groups from within Gaza.

The death ratio argument, which is decades old in this conflict, has never been a just reason for Israel not respond attacks from Gaza. What does one expect when Hamas does not protect its citizens and routinely (along with other groups) launches attacks from civilian areas?

As for the rest, stop playing the martyr and fabricating attacks against you (in this case from me). That is just plain silly.
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Old 25th March 2013, 05:25 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
I have never accused you of changing your position. Neither have I accused of your position being 'anti-Israel'. I just simply think your logic is false regardless where these hostilities were to happen. I have never denied that Gaza suffers more civilian deaths due to IDF operations than Israeli civilian deaths due to attacks residing from the various Palestinian terrorist groups from within Gaza.

The death ratio argument, which is decades old in this conflict, has never been a just reason for Israel not respond attacks from Gaza. What does one expect when Hamas does not protect its citizens and routinely (along with other groups) launches attacks from civilian areas?

As for the rest, stop playing the martyr and fabricating attacks against you (in this case from me). That is just plain silly.
Your post is completely disconnected from the exchanges in this thread. Are you certain you are replying in the correct thread?
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Old 25th March 2013, 10:37 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Your post is completely disconnected from the exchanges in this thread. Are you certain you are replying in the correct thread?
Because I disagree with your choice of diction in one instance and the presentation that somehow firing unguided munitions is routinely done (as into densely populated areas with somewhat reckless disregard)? I understand that you know that the IDF takes precautions when attacking targets within Gaza, but I disagree with you in what targets the IDF/IAF attack and which methods they use. And mostly in the argument that the death ratio argument is a sound one. The presentation of these 'absolutes' does not paint a balanced picture. Mainly that of Hamas and other terrorist organizations in actuality 'routinely' attacking from populated areas knowing that the IDF/IAF [i[might[/i] respond depending on the situation.

My first post was a bit scathing, which I do apologize for. Hopefully we can move past this.
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Old 25th March 2013, 10:48 AM   #164
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I get what you mean sarge, if that helps.
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Old 25th March 2013, 10:58 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by bigjelmapro View Post
. Hopefully we can move past this.
Done.
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Old 25th March 2013, 07:14 PM   #166
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Old 25th March 2013, 07:46 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by DaylightSavingsTime View Post
Love the Hitch pic!

I recently met a woman here in the states who had lived in Israel 1975 until about 2000. She lived in a kibbutz and said the thing she feared most during her time there was in the early days of her stay there when other Israelis would steal from her collective. She said she did armed guard duty. I myself lived in Israel for 12 years. I worked in industry. Her telling me the story about doing armed guard duty at the kibbutz and fearing other Israelis would steal the collective's produce reminded me what a crazy time that was for myself. I still am confused but less so now. That was the least black and white world that I ever lived in.
Did she tell you about the handsome American sailor she met in Haifa back in 80*mumble* with whom she spent two memorable evenings?

That was me.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 04:00 PM   #168
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Sinister Zionist plot to steal Gaza babies!

Quote:
RAMAT GAN, Israel (AP) -- In his short life, Palestinian toddler Mohammed al-Farra has known just one home: the yellow-painted children's ward in Israel's Tel Hashomer hospital.

Born in Gaza with a rare genetic disease, Mohammed's hands and feet were amputated because of complications from his condition, and the 3 1/2-year-old carts about in a tiny red wheelchair. His parents abandoned him, and the Palestinian government won't pay for his care, so he lives at the hospital with his grandfather.

"There's no care for this child in Gaza, there's no home in Gaza where he can live," said the grandfather, Hamouda al-Farra
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Old 3rd May 2013, 11:53 PM   #169
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...lotilla-deaths
Quote:
The apology to Turkey for the May 2010 incident had been resisted by Israel until now, despite pressure from the international community. Both are close US allies – Turkey is a member of Nato – so the president was well placed to broker the deal.

According to White House officials aboard Air Force One, Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu placed a call to his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan while closeted with Obama in a trailer on the tarmac at Ben Gurion airport in the last minutes before the president's departure for Jordan. Obama joined the call at one point.

The Israeli prime minister's office said Netanyahu "apologised to the Turkish people for any errors that could have led to the loss of life". Erdogan accepted the apology, White House officials said.
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Old 5th May 2013, 10:36 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Too bad Erdogan couldn't have managed an apology for those Islamist militants that sailed from Turkey. That would have been a step forward.
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Old 5th May 2013, 12:13 PM   #171
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Now, if the Zionists would only apologize for taking care of a horribly ill Gazan child whom his parents and Hamas left to die. And that horrible grandfather, bringing this poor infant to the bloody Jews so the can harvest his organs for profit! I'm sure this traitor will soon find himself dragged through the streets of Gaza behind a motorcycle.
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Old 5th May 2013, 08:23 PM   #172
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I can see that this thread is going according to the norm. At least the Israelis using air strikes on the Syrians hasn't offended the Palestinians. Wouldn't be prudent to upset them, would it?
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:02 PM   #173
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Stephen Hawking boycotts Israel

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/wo...rael.html?_r=0

"Stephen W. Hawking, the University of Cambridge physicist and cosmologist, has pulled out of a high-profile conference to be held here in June in order to support an academic boycott of Israel, conference organizers and the university said on Wednesday.



The academic and cultural boycott, organized by international activists to protest Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians, is a heated and contentious issue; having Dr. Hawking join it is likely to help the anti-Israel campaigners significantly.
“Never has a scientist of this stature boycotted Israel,” said Yigal Palmor, the spokesman for Israel’s Foreign Ministry."




That'll show those uppity Jews.
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Old 8th May 2013, 05:44 PM   #174
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Old 8th May 2013, 06:45 PM   #175
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I tend to think the boycott is misguided, but the "defence" given is utter word salad.

I see a few people jumping on "This is his independent decision to respect the boycott, based upon his knowledge of Palestine, and on the unanimous advice of his own academic contacts there" as meaning that he was "pressured by activists".
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Old 8th May 2013, 07:22 PM   #176
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Stephen Hawking claimed that the words from a visit from the ghost of Albert Einstein decided the matter for him:

They asked me to be Prez of Israel, and I said, no, no, no!

...

If invited to this conf'rence in Israel, I won't go, go, go!


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Old 8th May 2013, 07:41 PM   #177
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I don't think Hawking has a leg to stand on here.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:00 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think Hawking has a leg to stand on here.
I bet there are some guys right now trying to find the specifications to Hawkings' wheelchair and computer-generated voice technology to find out how many parts were made or invented in Israel and then declaring, "Ah ha! If your boycott is real, you'll stop using your hi-tech wheelchair!"
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:06 PM   #179
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Better to boycott Israeli products.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:08 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/wo...rael.html?_r=0

"Stephen W. Hawking, the University of Cambridge physicist and cosmologist, has pulled out of a high-profile conference to be held here in June in order to support an academic boycott of Israel, conference organizers and the university said on Wednesday.



The academic and cultural boycott, organized by international activists to protest Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians, is a heated and contentious issue; having Dr. Hawking join it is likely to help the anti-Israel campaigners significantly.
“Never has a scientist of this stature boycotted Israel,” said Yigal Palmor, the spokesman for Israel’s Foreign Ministry."




That'll show those uppity Jews Israeli policy makers.
Fixed that last line for you. Unlike Holocaust Denial, I have seen no evidence that people who criticize Israeli policy, on the whole, are anti-Semites or self-hating Jews (the other favorite description).

I say, "Good for Hawking!"
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:10 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Fixed that last line for you. Unlike Holocaust Denial, I have seen no evidence that people who criticize Israeli policy, on the whole, are anti-Semites or self-hating Jews (the other favorite description).

I say, "Good for Hawking!"
No good scientist is anti-Semitic, as Jews have contributed greatly to the sciences. Especially Hawking's field.
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Old 8th May 2013, 08:27 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think Hawking has a leg to stand on here.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ..................................
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:24 PM   #183
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Next thing ya know, he'll boycott swimming pools.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:50 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
No good scientist is anti-Semitic, as Jews have contributed greatly to the sciences. Especially Hawking's field.
There's a difference between being anti-Semitic and disagreeing with the policies of the current government of Israel.

Or there should be, anyway.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:54 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I bet there are some guys right now trying to find the specifications to Hawkings' wheelchair and computer-generated voice technology to find out how many parts were made or invented in Israel and then declaring, "Ah ha! If your boycott is real, you'll stop using your hi-tech wheelchair!"
They see Hawkings rollin', they be hatin'
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:55 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Fixed that last line for you. Unlike Holocaust Denial, I have seen no evidence that people who criticize Israeli policy, on the whole, are anti-Semites or self-hating Jews (the other favorite description).

I say, "Good for Hawking!"
They may not be anti all Jews but they are certainly engaging in blaming the victim.
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Old 8th May 2013, 09:59 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
They see Hawkings rollin', they be hatin'
Whooops! I must have been mixing up Hawkins with Dawkings!
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Old 9th May 2013, 12:20 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by ThunderChunky View Post
Advocating a two state solution = blaming the victim?
The movement to boycott Israeli academics has very little to do with advocating a two state solution.
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Old 9th May 2013, 01:09 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
The movement to boycott Israeli academics has very little to do with advocating a two state solution.
Or with blaming the victim.
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Old 9th May 2013, 01:21 AM   #190
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Hypocrite.
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Old 9th May 2013, 05:20 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I like Chinese culture and Chinese women too.

Actually, it is difficult to know why Hawking made this decision given that he has visited Israel four times in the past.

I think academic boycotts are a bad idea even to places such as China and Iran. I would happily go to any of those countries to deliver a lecture. Not sure whether anyone would listen, though.
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Old 9th May 2013, 06:03 AM   #192
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Any word on when Hawking will be attending a scientific conference in Palestine? I mean, well, if they have them and all.
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Old 9th May 2013, 07:57 AM   #193
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At this point even I feel that Israel should be boycotted, mostly because I don't know how to only boycott the Orthodox there.

Look, the whole county is being held hostage by the Orthodox right now. They don't work, they don't fight and yet they have constitutionally mandated seats in parliament and living stipends. They have large, state subsidized families who are the exact same people who are invading the Palestinian lands and stealing their property.

The hardworking Non-Orthodox citizens of Israel are being forced by these brutes to do their bidding. They need to be encouraged to rise up against their religious extremist captors and rewrite their constitution to no longer give such ridiculous treatment to the Orthodox.

I stand in support of the Israeli people in their fight to regain their own country from religious zealots.
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Old 9th May 2013, 08:45 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Not the only hypocracy in this situation:

From: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...alem-1.1386618
Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, director of the Israel Law Centre, criticised Hawking’s decision, noting that the cosmologist uses Israeli-developed technology to cope with his motor neurone illnesse.

Perhaps Hawking should give up all Israeli technology and see if there is a Palestinian-version of a wheelchair that he could use.
I expect AMD would be happy to supply him with any hardware requirements.

Quote:
It might not come with a speech synthesizer
Telesensory Systems isn't Isreali (in fact what remains of the company is owned by a company based in Singapore).
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Old 9th May 2013, 09:33 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I bet there are some guys right now trying to find the specifications to Hawkings' wheelchair and computer-generated voice technology to find out how many parts were made or invented in Israel and then declaring, "Ah ha! If your boycott is real, you'll stop using your hi-tech wheelchair!"
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-P...boycott-312505

Quote:
Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, director of Shurat HaDin – Israel Law Center, called Hawking’s boycott hypocritical.

“His whole computer-based communication system runs on a chip designed by Israel’s Intel team. I suggest that if he truly wants to pull out of Israel, he should also pull out his Intel Core i7 from his tablet.”

She suggested that he should also consult his academic contacts and the Intel engineers in Israel before deciding to boycott.

“He seems to have no understanding of this world.”

Since 1997, Hawking’s computer- based system has been sponsored and provided by Intel.
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Any word on when Hawking will be attending a scientific conference in Palestine? I mean, well, if they have them and all.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-P...boycott-312505

Quote:
Hawking, 71, has visited Israel four times, most recently in 2006, when he lectured at Israeli and Palestinian universities.
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Old 9th May 2013, 09:47 AM   #196
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Just as folks had the right to boycott Apartheid South Africa, folks have the right to boycott Israel.

Just as boycotting Apartheid South Africa wasn't an expression of hatred against Afrikaners and other white South Africans, boycotting Israel isn't an expression of hatred against Jews.

Last edited by Courier; 9th May 2013 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 9th May 2013, 10:30 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If "The Palestinians" accept a 2-state solution, why did the residents of the Gaza strip (an area composed of over a million Palestinians) vote for a party that has a charter that indicates they want to eliminate all jews in palestine?

Is there some new definition of "2 state solution" that would allow killing of all Jews in Israel?


Not the only hypocracy in this situation:

From: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...alem-1.1386618
Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, director of the Israel Law Centre, criticised Hawking’s decision, noting that the cosmologist uses Israeli-developed technology to cope with his motor neurone illnesse.

Perhaps Hawking should give up all Israeli technology and see if there is a Palestinian-version of a wheelchair that he could use. It might not come with a speech synthesizer or breathing assistance, but I'm sure it can pack a heck of a lot of explosives for any wheelchair bound suicide bombers.


According to an interview I heard with a british journalist who was involved in breaking the story (sorry don't have any references right now), in the past he went to Israel but only on condition that we would be allowed to speak at Palestinian universities as well. I guess what has changed is that Palestinian academics have communicated to him that a boycott is the "best" option now.


Here's the problem...

Yes, there are things that Israel does wrong. However, its hard to see how someone is supportive of "the Jews" or of Israel, when they get criticism that is far out of proportion to what they have actually done. Palestine votes in a party that wants to "kill all Jews", and regularly fires rockets into Israel? Who cares, we need to discuss the "evils of zionism". Islamic cultures regularly supress and even kill homosexuals and women? Who cares as long as Isreal is doing something wrong!

It would be a little easier to accept criticism of Israel as legitimate (and not anti-semetic) if it were a bit more evenly balanced.

As for Hawkings, he has every right to express his political views. However, his expertise is in theoretical physics. When it comes to issues of politics and national self defense, his "expertise" is no greater than my car mechanic or greeter at the local wal-mart.
Why is it so hard for you and others to simply admit & accept that BOTH sides have done some ********** up things? Why is this always a competition of who has done worse?
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Old 9th May 2013, 10:39 AM   #198
Giz
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
Why is it so hard for you and others to simply admit & accept that BOTH sides have done some ********** up things? Why is this always a competition of who has done worse?
Because Hawking is boycotting Israel, rather than the Palestinians (or both).
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Old 9th May 2013, 10:45 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Because Hawking is boycotting Israel, rather than the Palestinians (or both).
Indeed. A charitable interpretation of this disparity is that the Israelis might modify their behavior in response to such pressures, but the Palestinians almost certainly won't. But regardless of why this disparity of effort exists, it still ends up as perverse, in the sense that the better-behaved party is still the party that the most external pressure is being applied to, and that's perverse.
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Old 9th May 2013, 10:58 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed. A charitable interpretation of this disparity is that the Israelis might modify their behavior in response to such pressures, but the Palestinians almost certainly won't. But regardless of why this disparity of effort exists, it still ends up as perverse, in the sense that the better-behaved party is still the party that the most external pressure is being applied to, and that's perverse.
It's even worse, as it implies that concessions from the Israelis will be appreciated by the Palestinians who will then become more peaceful and conciliatory themselves. This appears to be a dangerous misconception (where progressive westerners assume that their morals and world view will be shared by Hamas, honor-shame cultures, etc). What if no concessions, save complete abasement and surrender, will be enough?
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