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Tags Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues

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Old 20th May 2013, 06:36 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It would seem mr. Hawking declined for health reasons, making whatever arguments in favour of his absence moot.
So he's actually not boycotting Israel?
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Old 20th May 2013, 06:38 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It would seem mr. Hawking declined for health reasons, making whatever arguments in favour of his absence moot.
According to The Daily Beast, Hawking has confirmed he's not attending in order to honor the Boycott, not because of health reasons.

Quote:
“I accepted the invitation to the Presidential Conference with the intention that this would not only allow me to express my opinion on the prospects for a Peace Settlement but also because it would allow me to lecture on the West Bank,” wrote Hawking. “However, I have received a number of emails from Palestinian academics. They are unanimous that I should respect the boycott. In view of this, I must withdraw from the conference. Had I attended, I would have stated my opinion that the policy of the present Israeli government is likely to lead to disaster.”
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Old 20th May 2013, 06:41 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
According to The Daily Beast, Hawking has confirmed he's not attending in order to honor the Boycott, not because of health reasons.
He did the right thing. His absense will speak volumes.

The message is clear to Israel: what you are doing is wrong and we don't stand by it.
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Old 20th May 2013, 06:51 PM   #284
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Having spent a few years as a resident of thezionistentity, I'm hoping the same intelligence, courage and resourcefulness I found among so many of its citizens will allow Israel to survive, as a Jewish state, the absence of boycotting celebrities. Time will tell.
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Old 20th May 2013, 06:52 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Having spent a few years as a resident of thezionistentity, I'm hoping the same intelligence, courage and resourcefulness I found among so many of its citizens will allow Israel to survive, as a Jewish state, the absence of boycotting celebrities. Time will tell.
Israel can survive an academic boycott. They can even survive a tourist boycott.

But why would they want to?
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Old 23rd May 2013, 04:56 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
Why is it so hard for you and others to simply admit & accept that BOTH sides have done some ********** up things? Why is this always a competition of who has done worse?
Because a good effort to solve any problem begins with an honest assessment of exactly what the problem is.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 05:33 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Because a good effort to solve any problem begins with an honest assessment of exactly what the problem is.
The discussion now is Hawking's boycott of Israel.

It is a valid decision to make and it will have an affect.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 05:50 AM   #288
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Quote:
Quote:
Who is more moral in your opinion, Hamas or Israel?
None of the two
Which speaks volumes about how much you've really studied the issue.

Originally Posted by Courier View Post
The discussion now is Hawking's boycott of Israel.

It is a valid decision to make and it will have an affect.
Do you have any kind of evidence of this? At least here in Norway, sales of Israeli goods go up most every time some fringe group or other decides they want to "boycott the apartheid state". I also have a strong feeling that activisim like this helps fuel animosity between Israel and the West and further entrenches radical groups such as the ultra-orthodox bloc. The negative efffects might outweight whatever positive gain you see.

So please, give me some sort of evidence that the boycott, apart from being the most hip and trendy way of attacking Israel these days, is a "valid decision" for those who want Israel to change its wicked ways. Whatever those might be -- simply not buying goods for someone isn't exactly sending them a clear message of exactly what it is you're angry with them for in the first place. It's more like teenage girls who suddenly stop talking to each others, with the victim often not having a clue why. Not exactly the kind of democratic dialogue we'd expect to take place between 2013 democracies.

Originally Posted by Courier
The message is clear to Israel: what you are doing is wrong and we don't stand by it.
I'll give you a little hint here, and it won't even cost you: they already know people dislike them, so if that's your goal, "redundant" is too mild a word.

Originally Posted by trustbutverify
According to The Daily Beast, Hawking has confirmed he's not attending in order to honor the Boycott, not because of health reasons.
Ah, okay.

Originally Posted by Courier
Academic boycott of Israel is a good thing. But a more productive boycott would be one that sees tourists stay away. There are much lovelier & safer nations in the Mediteranean to visit than Israel.
Truly beautiful reasoning. I just love how you use terrorism against Israel as an argument to boycott her, and not, oh, the murderers who might her civilians and tourists feel unsafe in the first place. Did you boycott Oslo following the 22nd July bomb, too?

Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 23rd May 2013 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 05:54 AM   #289
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For every container of Israeli tahini that Hawking and friends don't buy, I am buying 2.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 05:55 AM   #290
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A large-scale boycott of Israel's academic institutions and academics would send a strong signal to Israel that their policies are unjust and an afront to any peace process.

A tourist boycott would hit Israel in the wallet, which is their most important asset. But that seems to be less likely.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 06:01 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Truly beautiful reasoning. I just love how you use terrorism against Israel as an argument to boycott her, and not, oh, the murderers who might her civilians and tourists feel unsafe in the first place. Did you boycott Oslo following the 22nd July bomb, too?
I said no such thing. If you can't honestly represent my views please don't respond to them.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 06:04 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Zelenius
For every container of Israeli tahini that Hawking and friends don't buy, I am buying 2.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by Courier View Post
A large-scale boycott of Israel's academic institutions and academics would send a strong signal to Israel that their policies are unjust and an afront to any peace process.

A tourist boycott would hit Israel in the wallet, which is their most important asset. But that seems to be less likely.
You already said that.

Quote:
I said no such thing. If you can't honestly represent my views please don't respond to them.
You saidthat "a more productive boycott would be one that sees tourists stay away. There are much lovelier & safer nations in the Mediteranean to visit than Israel". Surely you see how this could be taken to mean that you think people should "stay away from" (boycott) Israel because it's unsafe? Since this is, after all, what you wrote?

Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 23rd May 2013 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:05 AM   #293
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Last year, the EU called upon Israel to meet its obligations which included halting forced transfer of population and demolition of Palestinian housing and infrastructure, simplifying procedures for building permits, ensuring access to water and addressing humanitarian needs.

But the AIDA report says there has been a 94 per cent rejection of Palestinian building requests and the demolition of 535 Palestinian structures, including emergency tents, houses, roads and water cisterns.

In contrast, the report says 1967 housing units for Jewish settlers have been included in new Israeli tendering processes and 613 new units built.

The report says in the last year there have been 150 Palestinians injured by violence from Jewish settlers, including 33 children.

The issue of settler violence was raised by President Barack Obama two months ago.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226650212608
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Old 24th May 2013, 05:45 PM   #294
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In contrast, the report says 1967 housing units for Jewish settlers have been included in new Israeli tendering processes and 613 new units built.

The report says in the last year there have been 150 Palestinians injured by violence from Jewish settlers, including 33 children.

The issue of settler violence was raised by President Barack Obama two months ago.
So the Good Guys are on the case. Good. I don't think you'll find many people here supoprting extremist settlers in the first place, either.

...unlike when Palestinians attack and hurt Israeli civilians and are excused as "Just Defending their Country" by apologists and lauded as heroes by their governments which then gives them handouts for every Israeli citizen they kill (I wish I was making this up).
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Old 24th May 2013, 06:05 PM   #295
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From reading this report, the extremist settlers have the official backing of the Israeli Government. The 'good guys' are not actually doing anything more than documenting a process.
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Old 25th May 2013, 12:08 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
From reading this report, the extremist settlers have the official backing of the Israeli Government. The 'good guys' are not actually doing anything more than documenting a process.
If you can actually read the report, please link to it. The summary given in the news article you linked to doesn't say much.
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Old 25th May 2013, 12:36 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
From reading this report, the extremist settlers have the official backing of the Israeli Government. The 'good guys' are not actually doing anything more than documenting a process.
Retro-actively legalizing settlements that were built illegally doesn't say much for Israel's respect for the law.
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Old 25th May 2013, 01:34 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
Retro-actively legalizing settlements that were built illegally doesn't say much for Israel's respect for the law.
From the Israeli point of view, absent a peace agreement with agreed upon borders, it's disputed land. Their legal authority for settling there stems from the Mandate for Palestine from the League of Nations, which authorized Jewish settlement West of the Jordan River. Nothing since has revoked that.
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Old 25th May 2013, 03:05 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
From the Israeli point of view, absent a peace agreement with agreed upon borders, it's disputed land. Their legal authority for settling there stems from the Mandate for Palestine from the League of Nations, which authorized Jewish settlement West of the Jordan River. Nothing since has revoked that.
This is 2013 not 1926. The British Mandate has been over for 65 years. Israel accepted the borders of UN resolution 181 and those borders recognized by the UN when they accepted them as a member state.
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Old 25th May 2013, 03:39 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
This is 2013 not 1926. The British Mandate has been over for 65 years. Israel accepted the borders of UN resolution 181 and those borders recognized by the UN when they accepted them as a member state.
The selective recognition of law almost always favours the settlers, or even tolerates settlers who for years flout Israel's own laws.

Quote:
"The International Court of Justice said that where the military wall encroaches on the Occupied Palestinian Territories it is illegal and should be removed. It said that those who suffered damages as a result of the wall are entitled to reparations. What is also clear under international law is that Israeli settlements are illegal and should be removed."

While the fence/wall was being constructed in the area, the Israeli army promised to allow the villagers free access to their land. Immediately after the fence/wall was constructed, permits were granted to most farmers. However, the army soon began refusing to renew the permits of a growing number of farmers, depriving them and their families of their livelihood.

Jayyus is an agricultural community of 3500 inhabitants, all of whom rely directly or indirectly on farming for their livelihoods. According to the estimates of the municipality of Jayyus, less than half of Jayyus farmers now have permits to access their land.

The settlement of Tsufim lies to the west, one of more than 130 settlements housing over half a million Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, which cause the violation of a range of Palestinian human rights including the rights to be free from discrimination and to an adequate standard of living.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/west-...hts-2013-03-21

Quote:
Ottoman rule

There is a law dating from the Ottoman empire in 1853, says Hilo, which states that any land left uncultivated for three years reverts to state ownership. "This law was introduced to boost tax revenues - because the Ottomans wanted food producers to produce," Hilo told Al Jazeera.

"But Israel applies the same law and blames the Ottomans in order to confiscate land within the occupied West Bank - except that the land becomes 'property' of the state of Israel, not the Ottoman empire.

"Our campaign is to help Palestinian farmers maintain ownership of their property - and once olive trees are planted, it is evidence that the land is being cultivated."
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...713716742.html
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Old 25th May 2013, 03:43 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
The selective recognition of law almost always favours the settlers, or even tolerates settlers who for years flout Israel's own laws.



http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/west-...hts-2013-03-21



http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...713716742.html
Its very confusing as to why anyone would cite British law and the regulations of the British Mandate to justify illegal settlements in Palestine. Will they also apply the British Mandate's immigration restrictions upon Jews to Palestine?
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Old 25th May 2013, 04:05 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
This is 2013 not 1926. The British Mandate has been over for 65 years. Israel accepted the borders of UN resolution 181 and those borders recognized by the UN when they accepted them as a member state.
They were never recognized by the Arab states or the Palestinians, who instantly launched a war of genocide against Israel.

As it turns out, there's consequences for losing wars of genocide.
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Old 25th May 2013, 04:22 PM   #303
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I look forward to Israel applying the Jewish immigration restrictions of the British Mandate. That would be interesting.
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Old 25th May 2013, 08:02 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
I look forward to Israel applying the Jewish immigration restrictions of the British Mandate. That would be interesting.
Why would they do that?

I'd look forward to the Palestinians work towards peace instead of the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews.

A Palestinian state "from the river to the sea" isn't going to happen. Nor are millions of descendants of the people who fled in the belief they could return after the Arab armies completed their genocide ever going to be allowed to live in Israel.
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Old 25th May 2013, 08:50 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Why would they do that?
That was the question. How does the selective use of law against Palestinians work? Some aspects of Ottoman law, in regard to land, land borders set defined at one time but not another. Enforced against Palestinians but not settlers. Palestinians stripped of their livelihood. That, is, the means they use to live.
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Old 26th May 2013, 05:29 AM   #306
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Found a new article about the peace talks between Olmert and Abbas. Quite interesting:
Quote:
Revealing never before heard details of talks with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, Olmert was referring to the proposal for a peace agreement that he presented to Abbas in the afternoon hours of a Tuesday, September 16, 2008 meeting in the Prime Minister’s residence in Jerusalem.
“At the end of the meeting” Olmert recalled this week, “we called Saeb Erekat [chief negotiator for PLO] and Shalom [Shalom Turjeman, Olmert's diplomatic adviser]. We asked them to meet the following day, Wednesday, together with map experts, in order to arrive at a final formula for the border between Palestine and Israel.”
But that Wednesday, Erekat called Turjeman and said they could not meet to finalize the peace deal because they “had forgotten that Abbas had to go to Amman!” Erekat said they would meet the following week. “I’ve been waiting ever since,” Olmert said with a smile.
The author, Avi Issacharoff, used to write for Haaretz. IMO, he was of their better journalists. It seems they let him go (maybe due to budget cuts) while keeping less talented writers.
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Old 26th May 2013, 06:21 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
Found a new article about the peace talks between Olmert and Abbas. Quite interesting:


The author, Avi Issacharoff, used to write for Haaretz. IMO, he was of their better journalists. It seems they let him go (maybe due to budget cuts) while keeping less talented writers.
Olmert was interesting, perhaps something could have come of his proposal. He was caught up in what proved to be unfounded allegations of fraud and corruption, and the deal died. Perhaps Abbas could have returned, but there was nothing to return to.
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Old 26th May 2013, 07:03 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Olmert was interesting, perhaps something could have come of his proposal. He was caught up in what proved to be unfounded allegations of fraud and corruption, and the deal died. Perhaps Abbas could have returned, but there was nothing to return to.
I think that the author of this paper is intending to write a followup explaining the reasons that Abbas other Palestinian negotiators gave for the rejection of the offer. If he does and I find the paper I post a link in this thread.

I must say that I am familiar with the claim that Olmert's weakness is the reason and that I do not buy the logic behind it. If the offer is good enough, and especially if it is better that what his replacement can realistically offer, you either take it or make a counter offer. If an agreement on principles was made and Olmert is too weak politically to get approval you can still demand that future negotiations will be based on that offer, and will have the world's backing for that. By not responding the PA ensured that the Olmert's plan went away with him. Also, I found the excuses that the PA made at the time embarrassing. If they thought at the time that Olmert's political status made future negotiations problematic they should have said so. They did not, and therefore I think they may had other motives. (For example, thinking that they can get more under an Obama administration.)
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Old 26th May 2013, 08:59 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Courier View Post
This is 2013 not 1926. The British Mandate has been over for 65 years.
Hey Parky!

If you want to ignore the roll the past has played on creating the present, that's your choice, but it doesn't lead to a greater understanding of the issues. Further, if you only want to selectively ignore the past, then that's biased.

Originally Posted by Courier View Post
Israel accepted the borders of UN resolution 181 and those borders recognized by the UN when they accepted them as a member state.
And yet those borders are not the borders of Israel now. Why not? If not, then what relevance?

Maybe your next incarnation can answer.
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Old 26th May 2013, 09:01 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Olmert was interesting, perhaps something could have come of his proposal. He was caught up in what proved to be unfounded allegations of fraud and corruption, and the deal died. Perhaps Abbas could have returned, but there was nothing to return to.
Interesting how Abbas doesn't need to even make an excuse for his failings, someone will always be willing to make one for him.
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Old 26th May 2013, 02:50 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Doctor Evil View Post
I think that the author of this paper is intending to write a followup explaining the reasons that Abbas other Palestinian negotiators gave for the rejection of the offer. If he does and I find the paper I post a link in this thread.

I must say that I am familiar with the claim that Olmert's weakness is the reason and that I do not buy the logic behind it. If the offer is good enough, and especially if it is better that what his replacement can realistically offer, you either take it or make a counter offer. If an agreement on principles was made and Olmert is too weak politically to get approval you can still demand that future negotiations will be based on that offer, and will have the world's backing for that. By not responding the PA ensured that the Olmert's plan went away with him. Also, I found the excuses that the PA made at the time embarrassing. If they thought at the time that Olmert's political status made future negotiations problematic they should have said so. They did not, and therefore I think they may had other motives. (For example, thinking that they can get more under an Obama administration.)
It appears to me both sides are angling for the most the they can get in a settlement of the dispute, is this not unusual? The difference is one is bargaining from a position of greater strength than the other.
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Old 27th May 2013, 10:43 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
It appears to me both sides are angling for the most the they can get in a settlement of the dispute, is this not unusual? The difference is one is bargaining from a position of greater strength than the other.
If the Palestinians were angling for the most they can get, why not a counter-offer?

The evidence points to a lack of willingness by Fatah to engage in talks at all, which is very different from trying to get the most out of them.
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Old 27th May 2013, 03:52 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That was the question. How does the selective use of law against Palestinians work? Some aspects of Ottoman law, in regard to land, land borders set defined at one time but not another. Enforced against Palestinians but not settlers. Palestinians stripped of their livelihood. That, is, the means they use to live.
Maybe the Palestinians should work towards peace instead of endless war to destroy Israel and/or kill all the Jews, eh?
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Old 27th May 2013, 04:16 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Maybe the Palestinians should work towards peace instead of endless war to destroy Israel and/or kill all the Jews, eh?
I'm all in favour of peace, but the report indicates Israel is not acting in good faith. What it is documented as doing would tend to incite a violent response.
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Old 27th May 2013, 05:45 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I'm all in favour of peace, but the report indicates Israel is not acting in good faith. What it is documented as doing would tend to incite a violent response.
Right. Out of all the actors in this mess it is Israel who is acting in bad faith...

How on earth can any unbiased witness come to that conclusion?
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Old 27th May 2013, 05:49 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I'm all in favour of peace, but......
Sad
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Old 28th May 2013, 02:25 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Sad

Sad that you can't quote what I actually said.
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Old 28th May 2013, 02:27 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Right. Out of all the actors in this mess it is Israel who is acting in bad faith...
You will have to quote me on where I ever claimed that.

Quote:

How on earth can any unbiased witness come to that conclusion?
Find that guy who said that, and argue the point with him.
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Old 28th May 2013, 02:30 AM   #319
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And so, another thread on this topic quickly degenerates into misrepresenting a persons position, and make snide insinuations about those lies. I suppose arguing the point is not possible, so this is the only fall back position available.
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Old 29th May 2013, 07:29 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
He has used his disability to make millions.
Bollocks. He uses his brain to earn a living, not his disability.
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