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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 7th August 2016, 05:20 PM   #521
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Well, Israel has been taking land outside their 1967 borders since well, 1967, so the belief is quite substantiated by hard core facts.
As I said earlier, chain of custody of the West Bank went from the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, to Israel.

So if an Israeli builds an apartment building in Ma'al Adumim, who'se wallet gets stolen? How?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
My bad.
I was thinking you were supporting atrocities only due to ignorance
Can you name these atrocities I've supported?
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:22 PM   #522
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:24 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
As I said earlier, chain of custody of the West Bank went from the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, to Israel.
?
Has there been an agreement with the Palestinians living in the West Bank that the custody of their land was to be taken care of by the Israeli?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
So if an Israeli builds an apartment building in Ma'al Adumim, who'se wallet gets stolen? How?
The person or the family living in the land where the apartment is being built upon, I assume

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Can you name these atrocities I've supported?
youtube.com/watch?v=at4-2DLLfjo
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:39 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Your point is moral authority has no or little value since you can not enforce it?
No, that's not what I said. What I said was very straightforward and easy to understand, moral authority doesn't translate to legal authority is what I said. If you extrapolate something more than that, then it's your extrapolation.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You should not accuse Ziggurat of being "kook".
It is against the rules, I assume
Ziggurat did not accuse Israel of genocide.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
?
Has there been an agreement with the Palestinians living in the West Bank that the custody of their land was to be taken care of by the Israeli?
Again, chain of custody went Ottoman Empire, British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, then Israel.

When was it "Palestinian"?


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The person or the family living in the land where the apartment is being built upon, I assume
So you believe in the myth that every Israeli who steps an inch East of the Green Line must bump some Palestinian who was previously there.

Ma'al Adumim and similar "settlements" are built in "Area C", which is 98% uninhabited.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
youtube.com/watch?v=at4-2DLLfjo
Argument by you-tube propaganda. Do you think similar videos are made of the children who die digging Hamas's tunnels?
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:51 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No, that's not what I said. What I said was very straightforward and easy to understand, moral authority doesn't translate to legal authority is what I said. If you extrapolate something more than that, then it's your extrapolation.
I never said it did
And your point is?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Ziggurat did not accuse Israel of genocide.
Nor did I
And your point is?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Again, chain of custody went Ottoman Empire, British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, then Israel.
Totally beyond the point.
Who gave Israel the authority to occupy (rule) the West Bank?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
When was it "Palestinian"?
When did I say that it was?
What is your point?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
So you believe in the myth that every Israeli who steps an inch East of the Green Line must bump some Palestinian who was previously there.

Ma'al Adumim and similar "settlements" are built in "Area C", which is 98% uninhabited.
So the forced evictions of the Palestinian people are all myths?
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publi...FS25.Rev.1.pdf
I mean, there is an official document of the UN here
Oh, I forgot that you believe the UN is a dictatorship club
Still you forgot to explain us what kind of dictatorship is Sweden


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Argument by you-tube propaganda. Do you think similar videos are made of the children who die digging Hamas's tunnels?
Here is more youtube propaganda from the UNICEF, the agency of the UN Club of dictators
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-1...unicef/7415256
Please enjoy the youtube propaganda

Last edited by SashatheMagnificent; 7th August 2016 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:17 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I never said it did
And your point is?
The same as it was three posts ago. If you're no longer contesting it then my point is made.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Nor did I
And your point is?
You didn't...accuse Israel of genocide? You did say, "Let alone the fact that the state of Israel has been accused of genocide as well, how is who you want to emulate for your war crimes of any relevance to the present discussion?"

To which I made my point, If the ones doing the accusing are kooks who are unclear of the definition of "genocide" then it is of little significance. "

To which you replied that I shouldn't accuse Ziggurat of being a kook, which of course I had not.

This would be easier if you would just keep track for yourself of what is being said rather than to continually ask me to do it for you.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Totally beyond the point.
Who gave Israel the authority to occupy (rule) the West Bank?
The Oslo Accords. That was an agreement made between Israel and the PNA back in 1993.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
When did I say that it was?
What is your point?
If you no longer claim all of the West Bank as being default "Palestinian Land" then my point has been made.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So the forced evictions of the Palestinian people are all myths?
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publi...FS25.Rev.1.pdf
I mean, there is an official document of the UN here
Oh, I forgot that you believe the UN is a dictatorship club
Still you forgot to explain us what kind of dictatorship is Sweden
Which part of that document says that a new apartment building in Ma'al Adumim forced the eviction of Palestinians?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Here is more youtube propaganda from the UNICEF, the agency of the UN Club of dictators
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-1...unicef/7415256
Please enjoy the youtube propaganda

These are "children" killed who were attacking Israelis with knives?

I also am concerned about the safety and well being of Palestinian Children, is that something you and I have in common?
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 PM   #527
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And just a bit of randomness, for those who believe the United Nations is a moral authority, here is an informative article about the "morality" of the United Nations:

http://www.irinnews.org/opinion/2016...-i-resigned-un
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:30 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I suspect 99% of the countries of this planet are represented in the General Assembly
So I do not get what your point is
Of course you don't. First off, the fact that it's not 100% was just to point out how sloppy your thinking was. The more relevant part is that the UN doesn't represent people, or even nations. It represents PART of the government of nations. Many of those nations are decidedly undemocratic.

Quote:
Russia a dictatorship?
Pretty much. Haven't you noticed?

Quote:
And who has most moral authority to decide the way things are?
Morality hasn't got anything to do with this. And the UN General Assembly has basically no authority, nor is it in any way moral.
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:36 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And just a bit of randomness, for those who believe the United Nations is a moral authority, here is an informative article about the "morality" of the United Nations:

http://www.irinnews.org/opinion/2016...-i-resigned-un
What the alleged abuses of some UN peace keepers in CAR has to do with the vote of Sweden and Poland for the state of Palestine, God only knows..

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Old 7th August 2016, 06:50 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The same as it was three posts ago. If you're no longer contesting it then my point is made.
?
Which point?
That moral authority immediately translated into legal authority, which is a point I have never contested?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You didn't...accuse Israel of genocide? You did say, "Let alone the fact that the state of Israel has been accused of genocide as well, how is who you want to emulate for your war crimes of any relevance to the present discussion?"
Your knowledge of the English language is clearly deficient if you can not understand the difference between
1. Israel has been accused by genocide and
2. I accused Israel of genocide
We are back at logic 101, here

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To which I made my point, If the ones doing the accusing are kooks who are unclear of the definition of "genocide" then it is of little significance. "

To which you replied that I shouldn't accuse Ziggurat of being a kook, which of course I had not.

This would be easier if you would just keep track for yourself of what is being said rather than to continually ask me to do it for you.
"Of course"

I do not know..
You spoke about "kooks" and I assumed you were talking about Ziggurat
If I was wrong, I beg your pardon
Who are the kooks then?
Name and surname

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The Oslo Accords. That was an agreement made between Israel and the PNA back in 1993.
Did the Oslo accord include the settlements of half a million of Israeli in the West Bank and the forced evictions as documented by the UN (Club of dictators) ??

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If you no longer claim all of the West Bank as being default "Palestinian Land" then my point has been made.
When did I ever claim that the West Bank was Palestinian Land?
Again, why you keep putting words in my mouth?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Which part of that document says that a new apartment building in Ma'al Adumim forced the eviction of Palestinians?
I do not know about case of this place
But are forced evictions real or not?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
These are "children" killed who were attacking Israelis with knives?
I do not know
It is not written
Do you assume that all children killed by the IDF were attacking the Israeli with knives?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I also am concerned about the safety and well being of Palestinian Children, is that something you and I have in common?
Let me smile..

Last edited by SashatheMagnificent; 7th August 2016 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:00 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You spoke about "kooks" and I assumed you were talking about Ziggurat
Why would you assume that? Logic 101, indeed.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:01 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course you don't. First off, the fact that it's not 100% was just to point out how sloppy your thinking was.
So if not 100% but close to 100% of the countries on Earth are represented and the majority of them vote for the Palestinian state this has to be ignored but the personal opinion of Mr. Ziggurat is what is important
Ego trip anyone?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The more relevant part is that the UN doesn't represent people, or even nations. It represents PART of the government of nations. Many of those nations are decidedly undemocratic.
And many of them are democracies
Like Sweden, Poland, Brazil, Argentina, Russia and many others who supported the State of Palestine
And your point is?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Pretty much. Haven't you noticed?
No I did not.
And I happen to be in Russia

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Morality hasn't got anything to do with this. And the UN General Assembly has basically no authority, nor is it in any way moral.
I understood your point
The vote of the majority of the governments at the UN, many of the full democracies, has no value and no moral authority because you said so.
Remembers me of the late Saddam, who also ignored the UN because he said so.

I wish you and your Israeli friend a better fate at the end though
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:05 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would you assume that? Logic 101, indeed.
I mistook NWO Sentryman who spoke about Saddam committing genocide for you.

My bad.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:36 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So if not 100% but close to 100% of the countries on Earth are represented and the majority of them vote for the Palestinian state this has to be ignored but the personal opinion of Mr. Ziggurat is what is important
Ego trip anyone?
Whether Palestine is currently a state is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a question of fact. Votes in the General Assembly do not determine that fact. And my opinion isn't determinative either. I have merely observed what the facts are. The fact of the matter is that Palestine is not a state. One may wish it to become a state, and maybe it will some day, but it isn't one now. Recognition of that fact is independent of one's preference for the future.

Quote:
I understood your point
The vote of the majority of the governments at the UN, many of the full democracies, has no value and no moral authority because you said so.
No. The UN General Assembly has no moral authority because it regularly acts immorally. And I never said it had no value. Obviously, they think a seat at the UN General Assembly has value. But that is the full extent of the value of that vote: a nonvoting seat on a largely impotent bureaucratic body. And that's far short of making Palestine an actual state.

Quote:
Remembers me of the late Saddam, who also ignored the UN because he said so.
Saddam violated an agreement that he made with the UN Security Council. The Security Council is considerably more powerful than the General Assembly. And I'm not proposing that we prevent the PLO from taking a seat at the UN General Assembly, which would be the only way to violate this vote.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:50 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Whether Palestine is currently a state is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a question of fact. Votes in the General Assembly do not determine that fact. And my opinion isn't determinative either. I have merely observed what the facts are. The fact of the matter is that Palestine is not a state.
Wow..
And why the large majority of the countries at the General Assembly did not notice this fact that you noticed?
You know who are the people who think that only they are right when all or the majority of the world does not see?



Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The UN General Assembly has no moral authority because it regularly acts immorally. And I never said it had no value. Obviously, they think a seat at the UN General Assembly has value.
Actually a lot of people around the world (in democracies too) would say that the United States acted immorally when they invaded Iraq?
Does this mean the US govt has no moral right?
Or is it only when YOU decide it is moral or not?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But that is the full extent of the value of that vote: a nonvoting seat on a largely impotent bureaucratic body. And that's far short of making Palestine an actual state.
Lie.
The GA voted the State of Palestine as State

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Saddam violated an agreement that he made with the UN Security Council. The Security Council is considerably more powerful than the General Assembly. And I'm not proposing that we prevent the PLO from taking a seat at the UN General Assembly, which would be the only way to violate this vote.
This is not the point I was making
I was barely saying that your "moral" positions are strikingly similar to Saddams
He also disregarded the UN
He also whitewashed the killing of his side
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Old 7th August 2016, 08:38 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
?
Which point?
That moral authority immediately translated into legal authority, which is a point I have never contested?
That may be what you said. I said moral authority isn't the same as actual authority.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Your knowledge of the English language is clearly deficient if you can not understand the difference between
1. Israel has been accused by genocide and
2. I accused Israel of genocide
We are back at logic 101, here
I accept your logic, you did not yourself accuse Israel of genocide. You only repeated the accusation made by others.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Who are the kooks then?
Name and surname
You tell me. They're the people you spoke of who accused Israel of genocide. Who are they?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Did the Oslo accord include the settlements of half a million of Israeli in the West Bank...
That's a good question. You have the Internet, you can read it for yourself and find out.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
... and the forced evictions as documented by the UN (Club of dictators) ??
Where was that documented? In the document you provided? What page?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
When did I ever claim that the West Bank was Palestinian Land?
Again, why you keep putting words in my mouth?
Great! I made my point retroactively. Sometimes I amaze myself at how good I am at this. :-)

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not know about case of this place
But are forced evictions real or not?
What did your document say? Did you read it?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not know
It is not written
Yes it is.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Do you assume that all children killed by the IDF were attacking the Israeli with knives?
No, but neither do I assume they kill children for no reason either.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Let me smile..
Good, I'll take that to mean you would like to see Palestinian children safe and protected. If so, I agree.

I think the best way to make that happen is for there to be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Do you agree?

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Old 7th August 2016, 08:53 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I was barely saying that your "moral" positions are strikingly similar to Saddams
He also disregarded the UN
Do you really not understand the difference between the UN Security Council and the UN General Assembly?

Take a moment to note what the permanent members of the UN Security Council have in common, and then tell us who wields the real authority--moral or otherwise--in the real world we live in.
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Old 7th August 2016, 08:56 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That may be what you said. I said moral authority isn't the same as actual authority.
OK
So your comment was not targeting any of my points. Great.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I accept your logic, you did not yourself accuse Israel of genocide. You only repeated the accusation made by others.
OK
So your comment was not targeting any of my points. Great.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You tell me. They're the people you spoke of who accused Israel of genocide. Who are they?
Here
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-Jew...enocide-463402

but why do u call them as "kooks"?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That's a good question. You have the Internet, you can read it for yourself and find out.
I read what I could
I found nowhere written that Israeli people had the right to settle in the West Bank and evict residents


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Where was that documented? In the document you provided? What page?
I foudn it here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...Resolution_799
nd learning of the deportation of hundreds of Palestinians by Israel in the occupied territories on 17 December 1992, the Council condemned the deportations that were in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention referring to the protection of civilians in times of war.

Here
nd learning of the deportation of twelve Palestinians by Israel in the occupied territories, the Council condemned the deportations that were in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention referring to the protection of civilians in times of war.

And in many other..

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Great! I made my point retroactively. Sometimes I amaze myself at how good I am at this. :-)
You should not put words into other people mouths

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What did your document say? Did you read it?
Yes I did
I posted here evidence of the CLub of Dictators


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes it is.
Please show

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No, but neither do I assume they kill children for no reason either.
Do you think they are killed for a valid reason or not

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Good, I'll take that to mean you would like to see Palestinian children safe and protected. If so, I agree.
Do not think that you agree

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think the best way to make that happen is for there to be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Do you agree?

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I think that
I do not think you are honest on this

By the way, still waiting for hearing why the UN is a club of dictators
And if people here think the photos of children killed are photoshoped
Are this photos photoshopped too?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...tack-on-israel

Please exp;ain

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Old 7th August 2016, 09:14 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
By the way, still waiting for hearing why the UN is a club of dictators
Have you not looked at the nations who have seats in the General Assembly? There's dicatorships, oligarchies, theocracies... Venezuela has a seat. Iran has a seat. Russia has a seat. Hell, the United States of America has a seat in the General Assembly. Do you think the USA should have a say in world affairs?
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Old 7th August 2016, 09:35 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Have you not looked at the nations who have seats in the General Assembly? There's dicatorships, oligarchies, theocracies... Venezuela has a seat. Iran has a seat. Russia has a seat. Hell, the United States of America has a seat in the General Assembly. Do you think the USA should have a say in world affairs?
Yes.. there are dictatorships in the UN, some of the worst of them supported by the United States
But is it it a stretch to call the UN as a Club of Dictators?
And what the heck has Russia to do with dictatorships?
I mean, the USSR ended up 20 years ago..
And Venezuela?

And Sweden?
India?
Brazil?

I mean, are they all dictatorship?
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Old 7th August 2016, 10:07 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Yes.. there are dictatorships in the UN, some of the worst of them supported by the United States
But is it it a stretch to call the UN as a Club of Dictators?
And what the heck has Russia to do with dictatorships?
I mean, the USSR ended up 20 years ago..
Who said anything about the USSR? Tell us what the Putin regime contributes to the moral authority of the UN General Assembly.

Quote:
And Venezuela?
Yes, please, tell us what the Chavez-Maduro regime contributes to the moral authority of the UN General Assembly.

Quote:
And Sweden? India? Brazil?
What about them?

Quote:
I mean, are they all dictatorship?
Are any of them dictatorships? Are you really trying to defend the moral authority of the UN?

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Old 7th August 2016, 10:42 PM   #542
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And I emphasize cooperation from both sides. Fixating only on what Israel can do is ignoring half the issue and you can’t solve these issues without looking at the other half.
It may just be that - in the light of present circumstance, fixating on what Israel can do is the only real alternative left.

This just in today:

David Keyes
Yesterday at 08:03 · · Politics
"Palestinian President Abbas' party recently posted on Facebook that its number one accomplishment is having murdered 11,000 Israelis. What kind of peace seeking, moderate organization boasts of mass murder? Why does President Abbas erect statues of arch terrorists like Abu Sukar who killed 15 civilians with a refrigerator bomb on a crowded Israeli street? Why doesn't President Abbas fire his advisor Sultan Abu Al Einein who recently called on Palestinians to slit the throat of every Israeli? President Abbas is encouraging Palestinian children to grow up and yearn for death over life. Imagine how much closer we might be to peace if Palestinian leaders bragged about how much they had done to bring Israelis and Palestinians together. Imagine if they named streets after champions of coexistence. Words matter. Those who praise mass murder, encourage mass murder. Spread this message if you want to see more boasting about peace and less about murder."

The 'other half' does not appear to want any resolution short of the extermination of the state of Israel and Israelis.

How would 'the kids' of the Palestinian half respond to this problem based on their more enlightened education in friendship with their Israeli brethren?

Has anyone asked them?

Quote:
With respect, I disagree. I think the intransigence of the Palestinian government is based on more than just jealousy.
This appears to be the case at present. How then to speak more directly to the actual Palestinian people (the actual have nots) and what is the best way for the haves to focus their support directly to the people?

Quote:
That was the thinking back in the 1990’s. A lot of investment was put into building up the Palestinian economy and improving their standards of living, but that approach failed with the failure of the peace talks at Camp David in 2000 and the beginning of the second intifada.
And why was that? What was Israel doing in relation to Her giving which might have upset the Palestinian ruling class? Also, why abandon a perfectly workable idea just because it was made to fail? The idea itself isn't one which should fail of its own accord. It does not have to be discarded altogether...
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:13 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who said anything about the USSR? Tell us what the Putin regime contributes to the moral authority of the UN General Assembly.


Yes, please, tell us what the Chavez-Maduro regime contributes to the moral authority of the UN General Assembly.
Please tell us what the Obama regime contributes to the moral authority of the UN General Assembly.

I do not know whether your comments are more racist or stupid.
Probably both.
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:20 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In order for a democratic society to survive, the citizenry must believe in it, must believe in the fundamental rights of their fellow citizens. And the Palestinians don't.
It is obvious that Israelis are unable to belief in a truly democratic country. I don’t suppose any essential disability. It is the logical conclusion of the “Jewish State”.

Don't blame only Palestinians for violence. The State of Israel was founded and is maintained by violence. If the foundation of the State was violent, their executors and sponsors were and are today the responsible of the subsequent escalation of violence.
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:28 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is a fantasy that this can work.
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
This is the idealist's position.
The same arguments were done a priori to invalidate a multiracial State in South Africa.

What it is a fantasy is to think that Israel will withdraw from the West Bank.
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:30 AM   #546
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I nominate Navigator for the following post:
Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
It may just be that - in the light of present circumstance, fixating on what Israel can do is the only real alternative left.

This just in today:

David Keyes
Yesterday at 08:03 · · Politics
[i]"Palestinian President Abbas' party recently posted on Facebook that its number one accomplishment is having murdered 11,000 Israelis. What kind of peace seeking, moderate organization boasts of mass murder?
Let alone that I cant find the Facebook post..
I think Lieberman was one of the guys
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...p-8671919.html

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Why does President Abbas erect statues of arch terrorists like Abu Sukar who killed 15 civilians with a refrigerator bomb on a crowded Israeli street?
Dunno, why Americans still have libraries and aircraft carriers named after former President Reagan, who supported genocide in South America?

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Why doesn't President Abbas fire his advisor Sultan Abu Al Einein who recently called on Palestinians to slit the throat of every Israeli?
Dunno
Why does Mrs. Clinton cosy up with Henry Kissnger, the engineer behind the Operation Menu war crime in Cambodia?
Why do not Israeli fire Netanuahu over his war crimes in 2014?

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
President Abbas is encouraging Palestinian children to grow up and yearn for death over life.
Why Isreael allows children as little as 12 to be jailed?
https://www.mintpressnews.com/israel...jailed/219176/

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Imagine how much closer we might be to peace if Palestinian leaders bragged about how much they had done to bring Israelis and Palestinians together.
Imagine how much closer we might be to peace if Israeli leaders accepted the 2002 resolution peace proposal

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The 'other half' does not appear to want any resolution short of the extermination of the state of Israel and Israelis.
..yawn..
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:47 AM   #547
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Yawn all you want, this is how it appears.
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:55 AM   #548
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Imagine how much closer we might be to peace if Palestinian leaders bragged about how much they had done to bring Israelis and Palestinians together.

as opposed to;

Imagine how much closer we might be to peace if Israeli leaders accepted the 2002 resolution peace proposal

The difference is in that the 2002 resolution peace proposal was not about "Bringing Israelis and Palestinians together."

If the one side continually asks for this while the other side continues to educate the art of hatred of Israel/Israeli's, well... that alone works against peace or the desire for peace.
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Old 8th August 2016, 12:57 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No. That’s a separate point of negotiations. It’s already been agreed between both parties that only a token number of Palestinians would actually return, others can be compensated monetarily or by being granted comparable land in the territories that will become “Palestine”.



No, that doesn’t follow.

Take Syria, for example. Officially “The Syrian Arab Republic”. Calling themselves an “Arab Republic” doesn’t mean that its non-Arab citizens, which includes Circassians, Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, Mandeans and others, are inherently second class citizens. In practice they’ve made their Alawite population their favored population, but they didn’t name themselves “The Syrian Alawite Republic”.

That they’re not much of a republic either goes without saying.



Again, no.

Israel’s foundational documents from the Balfour Declaration, to Israel’s Declaration of Independence, to its basic law all speak of granting equal rights to all of it’s citizens regardless of race or religion.

It’s not true that Israel has any laws forbidding mixed marriages. Israel recognizes all marriages, including gay marriages. What Israel lacks is a civil marriage law that allows marriages not conducted by the religious authorities in Israel.

Right now marriages in Israel are handled by the recognized religious authorities for Jews, Muslims and Christians. Any “discrimination” that happens is equally discriminatory to all it’s citizens who want to have non-religious or mixed religious marriages.

Should this be fixed? Absolutely, but fixing it has nothing to do with whether “Palestine” recognizes Israel as a Jewish state or not, but everything to do with when the Israeli electorate decides to push for it hard enough to get it done.



Who cares?

What Israel is looking for here is assurance that once a two-state solution is finalized that will be the end of the conflict. That the PLO and the PNA won’t redraft their charters and repeated statements repudiating this principle are seen (understandably in my opinion) as indications of insincerity. If the object is peace, why be so stubborn on something that’s purely symbolic? Say it the way they need to hear it and move on.



I don’t understand how and why it’s assumed Israel should return to the 1967 borders. Chain of custody on the West Bank went from the Ottoman Empire, British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, to Israel. How much of it should become part of a future state of “Palestine” is what should be negotiated between Israel and the PNA.



For there to be a solution based on “justice” you have to consider what is justice for both sides. As long as you only consider justice for one side, it will always be a stumbling block. At some point you need to decide that peace is important in and of itself, and make it happen.
I have not time to answer you point by point.

One single detail thing: Israel forbids in the facts the marriages between Israeli ziticens and West Bank people. http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/1917...n-jewish-state and http://www.adalah.org/uploads/oldfil...estyreport.pdf

Other not detail point: anexion and colonization of the occupied lands are forbidden by International Law. They are crimes of war. Then the return to the 1967 borders is a concession of the Palestinians,not a right of the Israelis. 25% of the territory assigned by the UN not seems to be a small concession.

Justice is Justice. There is not a Justice for Israelis and Justice for Palestinians.
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Old 8th August 2016, 01:14 AM   #550
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The UN partition was a spoil of the half of the Palestinian house to give it for a stranger without permission of the inhabitants. What would be your response if someone takes half of your house to give it to other?

It cannot exist "understanding" under an occupation. This is sheer... what is the word in English? Effrontery, Cynism...? Sorry, my English is not very good.
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Old 8th August 2016, 01:22 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The UN partition was a spoil of the half of the Palestinian house to give it for a stranger without permission of the inhabitants. What would be your response if someone takes half of your house to give it to other?

It cannot exist "understanding" under an occupation. This is sheer... what is the word in English? Effrontery, Cynism...? Sorry, my English is not very good.
Americans have two sets of morality
One for the others and one for themselves

Well, some Americans (and some other country too)

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Old 8th August 2016, 01:30 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
The difference is in that the 2002 resolution peace proposal was not about "Bringing Israelis and Palestinians together."
In return the Arab states will do the following: (a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region; (b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace.[16]

What else does Israel want
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Old 8th August 2016, 02:10 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
It is obvious that Israelis are unable to belief in a truly democratic country. I don’t suppose any essential disability. It is the logical conclusion of the “Jewish State”.

Don't blame only Palestinians for violence. The State of Israel was founded and is maintained by violence. If the foundation of the State was violent, their executors and sponsors were and are today the responsible of the subsequent escalation of violence.
So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948, the jews should have just rolled over and died?

And here's a fun fact: every state is founded and maintained by violence (Monopoly of force). And it's easy to live comfortably in the first world and insist that Israelis totally give in to genocidal maniacs while bordering Syria and Iraq. And also, the UN partition plan was never realised as the Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started.
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Old 8th August 2016, 02:37 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948, the jews should have just rolled over and died?
Arab armies with Nazi propaganda??????
Last time I checked Nazi Germany was in Germany, not in the Middle East.
Please enlighten us.
What is the history book that showed you that Arab armies are hopped up on Nazi Propaganda?

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
And also, the UN partition plan was never realised as the Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started.
Palestinian listened to a SS recruiting sergeant?
??????????????
What is this, a comic version of World War 2?

I mean, is this post ironic or you REALLY mean this nonsense??
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Old 8th August 2016, 02:59 AM   #555
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Hajj Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, helped Hitler field Muslim regiments of the Waffen-SS.
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:12 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Hajj Amin Al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, helped Hitler field Muslim regiments of the Waffen-SS.
?
Pope Pius XII has been accused to have collaborated with Adolf Hitler and ignored the Holocaust during the war.
Please go and support the bombing or Rome, then

Where is the evidence of "So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948"
And how this would possibly support the eviction of Palestinians living in the West Bank today?
Where is the evidence that "Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started."?

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Old 8th August 2016, 03:17 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
?
Pope Pius XII has been accused to have collaborated with Adolf Hitler and ignored the Holocaust during the war.
Please go and support the bombing or Rome, then

Where is the evidence of "So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948"
And how this would possibly support the eviction of Palestinians living in the West Bank today?
Pope Pius had his hands tied and was so scared of Hitler that he even had an abdication letter written in the event the Germans arrested him. Mufti OTOH went out of his way to court hitler and actively recruited for the SS
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:28 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948, the jews should have just rolled over and died?
Comics no, please.

Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
And here's a fun fact: every state is founded and maintained by violence (Monopoly of force). And it's easy to live comfortably in the first world and insist that Israelis totally give in to genocidal maniacs while bordering Syria and Iraq. And also, the UN partition plan was never realised as the Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started.
This doesn't seem "fun" in any sense. Unfortunately, this was the rule of the past, when international laws didn't exist and a Nation could be created by war, robbery and ethnic cleansing. This was the law of the colonisation also. It is strange to see a contemporary State, claiming to be democratic, and also claiming for the same jungle law.

You are right. Modern States claim for the monopoly of the violence... according to the law. In totalitarian States the laws are totalitarian, in racist States the laws are racists, in colonial States the laws are the laws for the settlers; in democratic States the laws are laws for all the people without race, genre or ethnical distinctions. The Israeli State is not a democratic State, then it falls under the other cathegories. You can choose. I prefer the cathegory of colonialism.
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:28 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Pope Pius had his hands tied and was so scared of Hitler that he even had an abdication letter written in the event the Germans arrested him. Mufti OTOH went out of his way to court hitler and actively recruited for the SS
So when Christians do it is as they have their hands tied when Muslims do it it is as they go out their way



The usual hypocrisy of the Americans and friends

And where is the evidence "So when the Arab armies, hopped up on Nazi Propaganda marched on Israel in 1948," and "Palestinians decided to listen to an SS recruiting sergeant and try to finish what Hitler started."?

Still waiting..
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:32 AM   #560
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So..........
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