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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 8th October 2016, 09:40 PM   #1321
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, you're intent on trying to be a troll, then? As was already said, the actual death count is nothing to be happy about at all, but wildly exaggerating the actual numbers is exceedingly dishonest and is distinctly objectionable, as well. Multiple wrongs don't make a right. Going further than that, if a civilian tries to stab or shoot and kill you and gets killed themselves in the process, they're a combatant, not a non-combatant, which matters notably more than "civilian" or "citizen" when it comes to how it's reasonable to feel about the event. The reporting for Palestinian death count tends to make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants, leaving a notable issue there.
I am not "wildly" exagerating anything
In 2014, during a few months more than 2000
In 2015, in 15 days about 200
Nobody knows for sure how many civilians killed, it is probably >1000 thousands per year
Including children

And you question me for not knowing the exact number of the killed while you put no effort in criticizing the killlers

How hypocrite fro you!

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Old 8th October 2016, 10:37 PM   #1322
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I am not "wildly" exagerating anything
And your backup to this is -

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
In 2014, during a few months more than 2000
Something that's already been accounted for, repeatedly, given that it was a rather major event.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
In 2015, in 15 days about 200
A rather nasty set of events, as well, certainly. One that you yourself gave plenty of reason to think was largely composed of active combatants.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Nobody knows for sure how many civilians killed, it is probably >1000 thousands per year
Including children
And your basis for this claim is wild speculation based on cherry picked time slots, by the look of it? By the actual reports available, the number seems to have been much, much less for most years in the last couple decades. Horrible, to be sure, but not at all supportive of your claim.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
And you question me for not knowing the exact number of the killed while you put no effort in criticizing the killlers

How hypocrite fro you!
Exact numbers? This was never about exact numbers. When your claim seems to be roughly an order of magnitude off, though, that's rather problematic, even before the part where you're trying to treat the deaths as all innocent noncombatants. As for the "hypocrite" accusation (for future reference, "hypocritical" would be the proper form in that sentence), when the information isn't clear enough to say much about where the blame lies, but rather just focuses on the number of people who died, it's thoroughly irresponsible to make blanket condemnations. Palestinian children have notably died in the bombings of 2014, for example. That is horrible through and through, as we can likely both agree. If attacks on Israel were launched from the building that they died in shortly before the response or it was otherwise turned into a military target, though, it was Hamas' responsibility for committing a war crime by turning it into a military target during a state of war, first and foremost. If there isn't such justification, it would be the Israeli military's fault, first and foremost. I have no issue with condemning either, depending on the specific case. Similar applies to pretty much all the rest. There are cases where the Palestinians are at fault for turning themselves or each other into combatants/valid military targets (or even for killing the other Palestinians themselves) and there are cases where innocent Palestinians were murdered. There's nothing about not condemning large groups of people who would be ruled as not guilty in a fair court of law on whichever side by engaging in sweeping generalizations of guilt that would make me a hypocrite, even when you don't like being called out for making fallacious arguments.
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Old 9th October 2016, 12:54 AM   #1323
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The great Abby Martin has been to Palestine for TeleSUR and so far the reporting is cutting through the Hasbara like a hot knife through butter. Enjoy:

Introduction
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Part I from the ground
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

to be continued...
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Old 9th October 2016, 01:41 AM   #1324
SashatheMagnificent
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Read the site IfAmericansKnew.
It is 600 per year + the ones who died of result of medical cures/ blockade
So probably around >1000 per year

Israeli, they are probably at few tens per year

So it is Israel the major killer, not Hamas

At the moment, then in the future things may change for the good or forthe worse

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Old 9th October 2016, 08:39 AM   #1325
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
...
There was a time when the Jews tried to gather money and power in the face of a miserable piopulation
In that time, it did not go very well with them
They should have learned a lesson
...
I see, the Holocaust was a lesson. Now that is special.
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Old 9th October 2016, 10:18 AM   #1326
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Read the site IfAmericansKnew.
It is 600 per year
Depending primarily on a site that itself seems to focus very strongly on the raw numbers as evidence doesn't really address the point about combatants versus non-combatants. Still, I do accept that my stated average estimate when including the major combat causalties was off by a hundred or so. My apologies for the mistake and thank you for the correction.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
+ the ones who died of result of medical cures/ blockade
So probably around >1000 per year
IfAmericansKnew and B'Tselem provides no numbers, by the look of it, for this kind of death, which makes any estimate rather doubtful. That's before the part where the blockade wasn't there originally and it isn't just Israel involved in the blockade. If I were to be quite generous, Hamas shares equal responsibility with Israel and Egypt, because it's a government-level dispute. If I were to be less charitable, Hamas should bear most or all of the responsibility for those deaths, because their policy declarations and actions with regards to Israel pretty much forced Israel to take measures like that or worse against them, and alienated Egypt, too, on top of that. Self-destructive foreign policy is quite the responsibility of the government making and enacting it. The Palestinian leaders are not children, after all, and there's little to no good reason to use very obvious double standards with them compared to leaders of other governments.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israeli, they are probably at few tens per year
Yes, there is a quite notable disparity in the death counts, as is to be expected given the difference in the level of military quality.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So it is Israel the major killer, not Hamas
Your argument holds little water. Overwhelmingly more Palestinians have died, yes. That's never been in dispute, either. Killing is a different concept than murder, though. Especially during times of declared war, combatants killing each other holds little weight, even when the side that declared war takes overwhelmingly more casualties. The death toll certainly can be horribly unbalanced, but that doesn't mean that the side that lost more somehow gains legitimacy or justification from that. Beyond that, if Hamas declares war and lots of Palestinian combatants then die fighting the Israelis, that's very much on Hamas' heads. Similarly, if Hamas incites attacks and the attackers die, that's on Hamas' heads. So no, it's not clear at all that Israel properly should bear most of the responsibility for that Palestinian blood. Please note once more, though, that all this does not excuse Israel at all where it actually does reasonably bear responsibility, but rather simply that a sweeping declaration against Israel or trying to declare that responsibility is divided solely via racial death toll lines is inherently and notably inaccurate and irresponsible.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
At the moment, then in the future things may change for the good or forthe worse
Well, there's a number of ways that that statement can be taken, given the context. With that said, though, it's not looking especially bright there, but we can certainly hope that the stage is getting set for a more lasting and cooperative peace.
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Old 9th October 2016, 04:34 PM   #1327
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Depending primarily on a site that itself seems to focus very strongly on the raw numbers as evidence doesn't really address the point about combatants versus non-combatants. Still, I do accept that my stated average estimate when including the major combat causalties was off by a hundred or so. My apologies for the mistake and thank you for the correction.
If you include deaths occurred by lack of peopret hospitals etc due to the blockade, it may be tens of thousands deaths due to Nazi Jew policies
Avg life span in Palestine is 10 years lower than Israel
So

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
IfAmericansKnew and B'Tselem provides no numbers, by the look of it, for this kind of death, which makes any estimate rather doubtful. That's before the part where the blockade wasn't there originally and it isn't just Israel involved in the blockade.
Its the main culprit

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If I were to be quite generous, Hamas shares equal responsibility with Israel and Egypt, because it's a government-level dispute. If I were to be less charitable, Hamas should bear most or all of the responsibility for those deaths, because their policy declarations and actions with regards to Israel pretty much forced Israel to take measures like that or worse against them, and alienated Egypt, too, on top of that. Self-destructive foreign policy is quite the responsibility of the government making and enacting it. The Palestinian leaders are not children, after all, and there's little to no good reason to use very obvious double standards with them compared to leaders of other governments.
That` s silly
Hamas is not forcing any blockade in Gaza

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Yes, there is a quite notable disparity in the death counts, as is to be expected given the difference in the level of military quality.
That is is your opinion
We are speaking about numbers

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Your argument holds little water. Overwhelmingly more Palestinians have died, yes. That's never been in dispute, either. Killing is a different concept than murder, though. Especially during times of declared war, combatants killing each other holds little weight, even when the side that declared war takes overwhelmingly more casualties. The death toll certainly can be horribly unbalanced, but that doesn't mean that the side that lost more somehow gains legitimacy or justification from that. Beyond that, if Hamas declares war and lots of Palestinian combatants then die fighting the Israelis, that's very much on Hamas' heads. Similarly, if Hamas incites attacks and the attackers die, that's on Hamas' heads. So no, it's not clear at all that Israel properly should bear most of the responsibility for that Palestinian blood. Please note once more, though, that all this does not excuse Israel at all where it actually does reasonably bear responsibility, but rather simply that a sweeping declaration against Israel or trying to declare that responsibility is divided solely via racial death toll lines is inherently and notably inaccurate and irresponsible.
Israel for sure bears lots of responsibility being the ones who have refused the two states solution based on 1967 borders which was offered to them multiple times
Then we can also talk about Hamas

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Well, there's a number of ways that that statement can be taken, given the context. With that said, though, it's not looking especially bright there, but we can certainly hope that the stage is getting set for a more lasting and cooperative peace.
Everybody wants peace
Hitler wanted peace, Stalin and PolPot wanted peace
You and your friends here want peace
Peace does not mean just peace
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Old 9th October 2016, 06:48 PM   #1328
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel for sure bears lots of responsibility being the ones who have refused the two states solution based on 1967 borders which was offered to them multiple times
Israel had its 1967 borders, in 1967. It wasn't Israel which refused to abide by those borders.
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Old 9th October 2016, 08:34 PM   #1329
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If you include deaths occurred by lack of peopret hospitals etc due to the blockade, it may be tens of thousands deaths due to Nazi Jew policies
Avg life span in Palestine is 10 years lower than Israel
So
And this adds what relevant information?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Its the main culprit
Israel is the more important of Egypt and Israel, yes. So?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
That` s silly
Hamas is not forcing any blockade in Gaza
Only in a very narrow sense is your dismissal true. It's not forcing the blockade specifically, but it did and is forcing action to be taken in response to its actions and policies. It's rather childish to think that there should be no consequences for attacking and provoking neighboring countries, from the start, before getting to the more direct relationship between Israel and Gaza, where Gaza was and is not truly free from Israel's influence and control from the start.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
That is is your opinion
We are speaking about numbers
More specifically, there are a couple things under discussion. The raw numbers is one of them. Your attempt to treat the numbers as composed of only innocent noncombatants is another. Your attempt to claim that responsibility should be divided along the ethnic divide is another. In this case, you brought up the disparity between the deaths along the ethnic divide as if it was evidence of something important going on. How would it actually make the situation any less terrible if as many Israelis died as Palestinians or more Israelis died than Palestinians? Some remarkably misguided concept of "fairness?" The terrible parts of what's happening there have relatively little to directly do with the actual distribution of death. As it stands, the disparity is entirely expectable and understandable given the difference in average combatant quality. The raw numbers don't even remotely tell the whole story of what's going on, though it's understandable that those who have rather little in the way of honest argument to support the conclusion that they want people to reach would rely on such fallacious methods.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel for sure bears lots of responsibility being the ones who have refused the two states solution based on 1967 borders which was offered to them multiple times
Then we can also talk about Hamas
If you want to argue along that line, the Palestinians bear similar, or likely much greater, responsibility for refusing various similar or better for them two state solutions over and over, since long before Israel existed until present and have given plenty of reason to believe that they're not seriously interested in such for actually peaceful reasons, like their failure to even make a serious counter-proposal at Camp David, even when a two state solution based on the 1967 borders was directly what was in discussion there. As for Hamas, when part of their platform specifically opposes anything along those lines, what more really needs said? They've certainly said that they will happily accept the land that would have been a Palestinian country just being given to them, had the Palestinians agreed to things before the multiple aggressive wars were waged against Israel, but have given no reason to believe that that would be the end of any conflict. Instead, they've given plenty of reason to believe that just giving them the land would only really escalate the violence and suffering.

All that is largely irrelevant to the direct points in the section that you quoted as what you were responding to, though. For example, if Government A declares war on Government B, there is no good reason to treat the combatants that Government B kills as completely the Government B's fault and not at all the Government A's fault, regardless of the actual numbers. It's a very simple and should be quite a noncontroversial concept that seems to be rather difficult for you to accept, though, seemingly because it would mean that the Israelis don't bear all the blame and responsibility for all the Palestinian deaths.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Everybody wants peace
Hitler wanted peace, Stalin and PolPot wanted peace
You and your friends here want peace
Peace does not mean just peace
*shrug* This can be addressed rather similarly to how Carl Sagan addressed a slightly different subject.

Quote:
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
Carl Sagan
Your attempt here is nothing new, nothing special, and nothing worth caring about, given how vacuous it is. That many in this thread claim to desire peace, but quite disagree with your assessment of the situation does not mean that they don't actually desire peace. And yes, you can certainly turn that to use on the people who have accused you of not actually desiring peace.
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Old 9th October 2016, 09:51 PM   #1330
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And this adds what relevant information?
Do not play stupid please


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Israel is the more important of Egypt and Israel, yes. So?
Do not play stupid please part II

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Only in a very narrow sense is your dismissal true. It's not forcing the blockade specifically, but it did and is forcing action to be taken in response to its actions and policies. It's rather childish to think that there should be no consequences for attacking and provoking neighboring countries, from the start, before getting to the more direct relationship between Israel and Gaza, where Gaza was and is not truly free from Israel's influence and control from the start.
Israel is forcing a blockade on Gaza. period

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
More specifically, there are a couple things under discussion. The raw numbers is one of them. Your attempt to treat the numbers as composed of only innocent noncombatants is another. Your attempt to claim that responsibility should be divided along the ethnic divide is another. In this case, you brought up the disparity between the deaths along the ethnic divide as if it was evidence of something important going on. How would it actually make the situation any less terrible if as many Israelis died as Palestinians or more Israelis died than Palestinians? Some remarkably misguided concept of "fairness?" The terrible parts of what's happening there have relatively little to directly do with the actual distribution of death.
This is your opinion stemming from the fact that you could not care less about the deaths of the Palestinian side

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As it stands, the disparity is entirely expectable and understandable given the difference in average combatant quality. The raw numbers don't even remotely tell the whole story of what's going on, though it's understandable that those who have rather little in the way of honest argument to support the conclusion that they want people to reach would rely on such fallacious methods.
Ah, the fact that there are thousands of people (mostly Palestinians) dying every year directly or indirectly from Israel policies does not mean much to you
This was already understood

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If you want to argue along that line, the Palestinians bear similar, or likely much greater, responsibility for refusing various similar or better for them two state solutions over and over, since long before Israel existed until present and have given plenty of reason to believe that they're not seriously interested in such for actually peaceful reasons, like their failure to even make a serious counter-proposal at Camp David, even when a two state solution based on the 1967 borders was directly what was in discussion there.
The two state solution based on 1967 borders has been proposed by the Palestinians and refused by Israel multiple times

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As for Hamas, when part of their platform specifically opposes anything along those lines, what more really needs said? They've certainly said that they will happily accept the land that would have been a Palestinian country just being given to them, had the Palestinians agreed to things before the multiple aggressive wars were waged against Israel, but have given no reason to believe that that would be the end of any conflict. Instead, they've given plenty of reason to believe that just giving them the land would only really escalate the violence and suffering.
It is wars by Palestine against Israel for people biased pro-Israel like you
It is more like wars against Palestine factually based

But this is a moot point, since Israel is the party responsible for refusing the two state solution on 1967 borders

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
All that is largely irrelevant to the direct points in the section that you quoted as what you were responding to, though. For example, if Government A declares war on Government B, there is no good reason to treat the combatants that Government B kills as completely the Government B's fault and not at all the Government A's fault, regardless of the actual numbers. It's a very simple and should be quite a noncontroversial concept that seems to be rather difficult for you to accept, though, seemingly because it would mean that the Israelis don't bear all the blame and responsibility for all the Palestinian deaths.
Maybe not all the blame but most of the blame, along with you and the other pro-Israeli here
PLO never declared any war AFAIK

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Your attempt here is nothing new, nothing special, and nothing worth caring about, given how vacuous it is. That many in this thread claim to desire peace, but quite disagree with your assessment of the situation does not mean that they don't actually desire peace. And yes, you can certainly turn that to use on the people who have accused you of not actually desiring peace.
We have already understood that the deaths of several hundreds of palestinian chuildren by israeli rockets is "vacuous" with you, putting you directly in line with the moral position of gentlemen like Saddam Hussein and Osama who promoted similar policies as your friend Netanyahu.
Do not cry foul, if in the future the table turns, as it happens in history
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Old 9th October 2016, 09:52 PM   #1331
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Israel had its 1967 borders, in 1967. It wasn't Israel which refused to abide by those borders.
Even if true, it is Israel who refuses to abide them now, making her, and people like you who support her, guilty of of the deaths
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Old 10th October 2016, 08:02 PM   #1332
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Kill the victim and then blame him as he did not want peace
How typically American!!
Remember earlier when we were both declaring our desire for peace? This is you going back on that and declaring for perpetual war.

Do you want peace or not? How many people must die before you say enough? You were the one showing tragic pictures of dead children, don't you understand that more war means more death?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
How w
as that: the cow who calls the kettle black
I'm not the one making generalizations about people based on their ethnicity. You did that.
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Old 11th October 2016, 04:36 AM   #1333
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Remember earlier when we were both declaring our desire for peace? This is you going back on that and declaring for perpetual war.
??

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Do you want peace or not? How many people must die before you say enough? You were the one showing tragic pictures of dead children, don't you understand that more war means more death?
The cow who calls the kettle black

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I'm not the one making generalizations about people based on their ethnicity. You did that.
Oh, the cow who calls the kettle black all over here

Oh wait, it is the POT who calls the kettle black
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:32 AM   #1334
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Even if true,
There's no "if" involved. But I can't tell if you're really that ignorant, or if it's just your standard dishonesty. Either explanation is completely plausible.

Quote:
it is Israel who refuses to abide them now
Why should Israel? The 1967 borders failed. They led to all-out war. And Israel wasn't the one to blame. There's nothing sacred about the 1967 borders compared to any other.
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:41 AM   #1335
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's no "if" involved. But I can't tell if you're really that ignorant, or if it's just your standard dishonesty. Either explanation is completely plausible.
Better to be ignorant than to have blood on my hands




Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why should Israel? The 1967 borders failed. They led to all-out war. And Israel wasn't the one to blame. There's nothing sacred about the 1967 borders compared to any other.
Taking land by war is immoral
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Old 11th October 2016, 06:37 AM   #1336
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Better to be ignorant than to have blood on my hands
Not a relevant comparison, since curing your ignorance doesn't require you to kill anyone.

Quote:
Taking land by war is immoral
Of course. And reasons don't matter, context doesn't matter, available alternatives don't matter.

Except, of course, when you're blaming the Jews for terrorism against them. Then any excuse will do.
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Old 11th October 2016, 07:09 AM   #1337
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Not a relevant comparison, since curing your ignorance doesn't require you to kill anyone.
Nor knowing a lot, as you assume you do, requires you to have blood on your hands

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course. And reasons don't matter, context doesn't matter, available alternatives don't matter.
And what would be the good reason for stealing taking land

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

Except, of course, when you're blaming the Jews for terrorism against them. Then any excuse will do.
I am blaming Israeli and their supporters like you for terrorism against Pals
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Old 11th October 2016, 07:24 AM   #1338
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Nor knowing a lot, as you assume you do, requires you to have blood on your hands
I don't have any blood on my hands. And I don't know a lot, just a lot more than you.

Quote:
And what would be the good reason for stealing taking land
To create an incentive to not go to war with Israel again.

Quote:
I am blaming Israeli and their supporters like you for terrorism against Pals
And you also blame Israel for terrorism against Israel. So why should I care about who you blame for anything? Your blame means nothing.
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Old 11th October 2016, 07:27 AM   #1339
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't have any blood on my hands. And I don't know a lot, just a lot more than you.
I beg to disagree
On both accounts

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
To create an incentive to not go to war with Israel again.
You cant accept a life under siege just as you are afraid of war

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And you also blame Israel for terrorism against Israel. So why should I care about who you blame for anything? Your blame means nothing.
Israel is the main culprit here as it is Israel who refused the two state solution on 1967 borders, Israel who forces a blockade, Israel who kills more people and israel who steals land
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Old 11th October 2016, 08:02 AM   #1340
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I beg to disagree
On both accounts
Your disagreement won't change the fact that it's true.

Quote:
You cant accept a life under siege just as you are afraid of war


Quote:
Israel is the main culprit here
Of course it is. It's filled with Jews. That's why even when its neighbors try to destroy it, it's still Israel's fault. Israel made them attack it.

Quote:
as it is Israel who refused the two state solution on 1967 borders
Once again, it wasn't Israel who couldn't accept the 1967 borders. Israel HAD the 1967 borders, and it was Israel's neighbors who refused those borders. Blame them.

Quote:
Israel who kills more people
That would be a clue to anyone sensible that continuing to attack a vastly stronger opponent isn't a good idea. But Hamas isn't interested in sense, and neither are you.
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Old 11th October 2016, 08:10 AM   #1341
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your disagreement won't change the fact that it's true.
Your opinion


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Smoke less

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of course it is. It's filled with Jews. That's why even when its neighbors try to destroy it, it's still Israel's fault. Israel made them attack it.
Israel refusal to go back to 1967 borders is not and can not be because there are mad guys in the ME

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again, it wasn't Israel who couldn't accept the 1967 borders. Israel HAD the 1967 borders, and it was Israel's neighbors who refused those borders. Blame them.
Nobody forces today Israel to keep outposts outside 1967

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That would be a clue to anyone sensible that continuing to attack a vastly stronger opponent isn't a good idea. But Hamas isn't interested in sense, and neither are you.
This is the law of the strongest
People were smiling and laughing in 1923 as the Nazis were just a small group of crazy nuts while the Jews had all the power in Germany
Twenty years later the same people were passing through the chimneys in Aushcwitz and Mathausen
Just be aware of this
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Old 11th October 2016, 08:24 AM   #1342
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel refusal to go back to 1967 borders is not and can not be because there are mad guys in the ME
Israel's neighbors refused the 1967 borders... in 1967! It's because of their refusal, not Israel's, that the border changed. Yet you want to ignore that.

Quote:
Nobody forces today Israel to keep outposts outside 1967
Nobody forced Israel's neighbors to try to destroy it either. And nobody is forcing Palestinians to try to commit suicide attacks against it now.

Quote:
This is the law of the strongest
People were smiling and laughing in 1923 as the Nazis were just a small group of crazy nuts while the Jews had all the power in Germany
The Jews never had all the power in Germany.

Quote:
Twenty years later the same people were passing through the chimneys in Aushcwitz and Mathausen
Just be aware of this
You sound like you're hoping for a repeat. Certainly you side with those who are trying to make it happen.
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:10 AM   #1343
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You sound like you're hoping for a repeat. Certainly you side with those who are trying to make it happen.
Just to teach these stubborn Jews a lesson they failed to learn the first time. It's for their own good.
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:27 AM   #1344
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SashatheMagnificent isn't even trying to hide it, is he/she?
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:39 AM   #1345
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If you include deaths occurred by lack of peopret hospitals etc due to the blockade, it may be tens of thousands deaths due to Nazi Jew policies
Avg life span in Palestine is 10 years lower than Israel
Such Nazi Jews:

http://www.jpost.com/Health-and-Scie...attacks-362269

And according to this, Gazan life expectancy is better than Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, and Brazil. It's comparable to life expectancy in Saudi Arabia. In fact, at #110, it's just a little higher than the midpoint on a list of 224 regions.

http://www.infoplease.com/world/stat...y-country.html

Let’s not forget, maybe there is something Hamas could do to improve Gazan’s standard of living if they were to use their resources differently. Maybe they should prioritize paying their hospital staff above building tunnels and rockets.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
That` s silly
Hamas is not forcing any blockade in Gaza
Yes they are. As long as their policy is eternal war, they suffer the consequences of eternal war. Why are they not responsible for their own policies?
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel for sure bears lots of responsibility being the ones who have refused the two states solution based on 1967 borders which was offered to them multiple times
Then we can also talk about Hamas


What about Arafat not following through on his promises from Oslo? If he had, a new state of Palestine would have been declared back in 1998. Think about that, every Palestinian and Israeli person 18 years old and younger would only know about the war from stories and history books.

We can also list Arafat’s refusal at the 2000 Camp David Summit, Arafat’s rejection of the Clinton Parameters, Hamas’s rejection of Bush’s Roadmap to Peace, Abbas’s “preconditions” to establishing talks then still not coming to the table when those preconditions were met, Abbas’s refusal of the “napkin plan”, and so on.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel is forcing a blockade on Gaza. period
“Period” in this context means you’re not willing to consider why Israel would maintain a blockade and want to pretend they do it just because they’re evil or something.

That’s not conducive to peace. Peace means everyone gets what they need but not necessarily everything they want. Israel needs peace, so do the Palestinians. As long as Hamas is going to wage war, Israel will wage war back.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
PLO never declared any war AFAIK
PLO stands for Palestine Liberation Organization. It was formed in 1964 (Note: three years before 1967) out of pre-existing terrorist organizations.

Here is a question for you from Captain Obvious: What part of “Palestine” did the PLO want to “liberate” back in 1964? Remember, Israel did not control Gaza or the West Bank until 1967.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
We have already understood that the deaths of several hundreds of palestinian chuildren by israeli rockets is "vacuous" with you…
He did not say the deaths themselves were vacuous. He said your arguments using them were. There is a huge difference.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Do not cry foul, if in the future the table turns, as it happens in history
Meaning you would not expect or desire anyone to abide by the same standards against Israel that you would oppose on Israel if the power dynamic were reversed. You know that’s called a “double standard”, right?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
??
What, you don’t understand how rationalizing away the need for Palestinian leadership to participate in peace negotiations to achieve peace is calling for eternal war? It seems self-explanatory to me.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Oh wait, it is the POT who calls the kettle black
Yes, that would be the correct metaphor, but it would only be appropriate if I also were engaging in the same racism as you, which I am not.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Taking land by war is immoral
Was it immoral when Egypt and Jordan took Gaza and the West Bank? Is it immoral now that Palestinians try to win land by war?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Twenty years later the same people were passing through the chimneys in Aushcwitz and Mathausen
Just be aware of this
That sounds like a threat from a mobster. "My condolences on your recent tragedy, it would be a shame if it happened again..."

It's that kind of palpable hatred that illustrates why Israel exists to begin with.
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:35 PM   #1346
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Israel's neighbors refused the 1967 borders... in 1967! It's because of their refusal, not Israel's, that the border changed. Yet you want to ignore that.
Even if true, and you are just parroting the Isreali version, so much time passed from those events

Israel should forget and go back to their borders

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nobody forced Israel's neighbors to try to destroy it either. And nobody is forcing Palestinians to try to commit suicide attacks against it now.
Nothing of what you are saying prevents the state of Israel of doing waht is right

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Jews never had all the power in Germany.
They were at the head of powerful lobbies in a time when the average people were at hunger

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You sound like you're hoping for a repeat. Certainly you side with those who are trying to make it happen.
The only people who are HOPING for a repeat is you and your friends
God help that you will not get what you are looking for
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:37 PM   #1347
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Just to teach these stubborn Jews a lesson they failed to learn the first time. It's for their own good.
The one who does not learn form history..

Who said that cant remember..
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:49 PM   #1348
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Such Nazi Jews:

http://www.jpost.com/Health-and-Scie...attacks-362269

And according to this, Gazan life expectancy is better than Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, and Brazil. It's comparable to life expectancy in Saudi Arabia. In fact, at #110, it's just a little higher than the midpoint on a list of 224 regions.

http://www.infoplease.com/world/stat...y-country.html
Palestine is behind Brazil, Turkey, Jordan ..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ife_expectancy

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Let’s not forget, maybe there is something Hamas could do to improve Gazan’s standard of living if they were to use their resources differently. Maybe they should prioritize paying their hospital staff above building tunnels and rockets.
You are not entitled to tell other countries how to behave.

Look at the big thing in your eye before pointing
How was that

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes they are. As long as their policy is eternal war, they suffer the consequences of eternal war. Why are they not responsible for their own policies?
Because the PLO and at least Palestinians in the West Bank do not have a policy of eternal war.

It is you and your friends who have a policy of eternal war. And one day you may well suffer the consequences

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What about Arafat not following through on his promises from Oslo? If he had, a new state of Palestine would have been declared back in 1998. Think about that, every Palestinian and Israeli person 18 years old and younger would only know about the war from stories and history books.
Moot point
Israel never accepted to go back to their 1967 borders
Not now
Not in 1998

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
We can also list Arafat’s refusal at the 2000 Camp David Summit, Arafat’s rejection of the Clinton Parameters, Hamas’s rejection of Bush’s Roadmap to Peace, Abbas’s “preconditions” to establishing talks then still not coming to the table when those preconditions were met, Abbas’s refusal of the “napkin plan”, and so on.
Moot point
Israel never accepted to go back to their 1967 borders
Not now
Not in 1998

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
“Period” in this context means you’re not willing to consider why Israel would maintain a blockade and want to pretend they do it just because they’re evil or something.
Moot point
Israel never accepted to go back to their 1967 borders
Not now
Not in 1998

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That’s not conducive to peace. Peace means everyone gets what they need but not necessarily everything they want. Israel needs peace, so do the Palestinians. As long as Hamas is going to wage war, Israel will wage war back.
Moot point
Israel never accepted to go back to their 1967 borders
Not now
Not in 1998

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
PLO stands for Palestine Liberation Organization. It was formed in 1964 (Note: three years before 1967) out of pre-existing terrorist organizations.

Here is a question for you from Captain Obvious: What part of “Palestine” did the PLO want to “liberate” back in 1964? Remember, Israel did not control Gaza or the West Bank until 1967.
Moot point
Isreal regardeless what happened 50 years ago, could achieve peace by going back to their 1967 borders

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
He did not say the deaths themselves were vacuous. He said your arguments using them were. There is a huge difference.
So he should be willing to achieve peace by asking Israel to go back to their borders

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Meaning you would not expect or desire anyone to abide by the same standards against Israel that you would oppose on Israel if the power dynamic were reversed. You know that’s called a “double standard”, right?
The side who has the biggest military power bears much of the responsibility so Israel has more responsibility

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What, you don’t understand how rationalizing away the need for Palestinian leadership to participate in peace negotiations to achieve peace is calling for eternal war? It seems self-explanatory to me.
It is not calling for anything
As regardless of what all Palestinian leadership says and do, Israel could have accepted the offer of peace and go back to their 1967 borders
If they did not, they are at fault

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes, that would be the correct metaphor, but it would only be appropriate if I also were engaging in the same racism as you, which I am not.
I am not racist, as I am OK with two state solution based on 1967 borders living in peace What abut you

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Was it immoral when Egypt and Jordan took Gaza and the West Bank?
Did this happen in the lat 50 years

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Is it immoral now that Palestinians try to win land by war?
Palestinians are taking land from Israel
?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That sounds like a threat from a mobster. "My condolences on your recent tragedy, it would be a shame if it happened again..."

It's that kind of palpable hatred that illustrates why Israel exists to begin with.
I do not think that asking a country to stay within its borders is a sign of ahaatred
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Old 11th October 2016, 05:50 PM   #1349
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
SashatheMagnificent isn't even trying to hide it, is he/she?
There is no anti-semitism in asking the Israeli to stay within their borders
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Old 11th October 2016, 06:07 PM   #1350
trustbutverify
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The one who does not learn form history..
I learned how to deal with Nazi-types who blame the Holocaust on Jewish greed. How's that?
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Old 11th October 2016, 06:19 PM   #1351
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There is no anti-semitism in asking the Israeli to stay within their borders
There's sure a hell of a lot in
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There was a time when the Jews tried to gather money and power in the face of a miserable piopulation
In that time, it did not go very well with them
They should have learned a lesson
Apparently they did not
though.
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Old 11th October 2016, 07:02 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Even if true, and you are just parroting the Isreali version, so much time passed from those events

Israel should forget and go back to their borders
First off, AGAIN, there's no "if" here. Second, how do you handle the cognitive dissonance? You contradict yourself. If so much time has passed from those events that they no longer matter, then what's the justification for returning to those borders? They're ancient history, according to you.

Quote:
Nothing of what you are saying prevents the state of Israel of doing waht is right
Nothing you have said prevents the Palestinians from doing what is right either. And yet, they don't do what's right. The kicker is that they don't even do what's sensible.

Quote:
They were at the head of powerful lobbies in a time when the average people were at hunger
No, they were not. Pull your head out of your copy of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Quote:
The only people who are HOPING for a repeat is you and your friends
God help that you will not get what you are looking for
Wow. That makes zero sense, even for you.
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:31 PM   #1353
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
There's sure a hell of a lot in though.
The anti-semites are the ones who are putting the Jews living in Israel in danger, and this is not me for sure I believe so please
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:38 PM   #1354
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First off, AGAIN, there's no "if" here.
Your opinion

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Second, how do you handle the cognitive dissonance? You contradict yourself. If so much time has passed from those events that they no longer matter, then what's the justification for returning to those borders? They're ancient history, according to you.
The only cognitive dissonance here is you and your friends who first condemn the Arabs who attacked Israel in 1967 and then whitewash stealing land today

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nothing you have said prevents the Palestinians from doing what is right either. And yet, they don't do what's right. The kicker is that they don't even do what's sensible.
That` s stupid as
1) Most Palestinians are OK with going back to the 1967 borders and having two state solution in peace
2) Israel is the military powerful state here (for how long dunno) and she must bear the highest responsibility

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, they were not. Pull your head out of your copy of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
I do not own any such book

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wow. That makes zero sense, even for you.
Powerful Jews in the 20s were laughing off the Nazis as they thought they were stupid
Ten years later they stopped laughing
Twenty years later you know what happened
You are laughing off the Palestinians and the Arabs today as you have more military and more money
God help tables may not turn tomorrow
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Old 11th October 2016, 09:45 PM   #1355
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The only cognitive dissonance here is you and your friends who first condemn the Arabs who attacked Israel in 1967
The Arabs attacked the 1967 borders in 1967. Shouldn't you condemn the Arabs?
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Old 11th October 2016, 10:47 PM   #1356
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Do not play stupid please
Right back at you. Yes, the quality of life is worse for the Palestinians than the Israelis in many ways. This is not news and it has no real relevance to what was under discussion.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Do not play stupid please part II
Right back at you, again. Is Israel forcing Egypt to blockade Gaza?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel is forcing a blockade on Gaza. period
So, you're completely unable to refute the actual points made, then? Good to know that you think that your neighbors overtly declaring their intent to kill you and take the land that you've been living on for themselves, with no chance of peaceful negotiations, to be unworthy of any reaction at all. Your opinion has been noted and deemed entirely dismissable.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
This is your opinion stemming from the fact that you could not care less about the deaths of the Palestinian side
Hard as it might be for you to comprehend, I really do care about them about as much as I care about the Israeli deaths. Either way, it's a bit sad when my expectation for foolish responses is met. You're accusing me of racism on the basis of me pretty much entirely ignoring race, ethnicity, nationality, and the like as things that actually matter at all when it comes to how one should feel about the deaths. No, I don't see any good reason to treat either the Israelis or the Palestinians as "special" and deserving of being judged any differently than anyone else. No, I don't see anything particularly good about wishing for more people to die. No, I don't see anything actually "fair" about either equal or unequal numbers of people from each side dying in a conflict, and nor do I see either equal or unequal numbers of deaths as saying just about anything at all of value regarding how one should react to any particular death, let alone them collectively. So, I'm curious. Why are you doing or supporting doing these things?


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Ah, the fact that there are thousands of people (mostly Palestinians) dying every year directly or indirectly from Israel policies does not mean much to you
This was already understood
And that the Israeli policies are in place because of Hamas' policies and actions seems to mean nothing to you, it seems. This was already understood, though, as well, given your poor attempt at apologetics. A government tends to be responsible for how their actions affect the people they govern, especially when their actions have obvious and predictable reactions. Trying to push all the blame elsewhere is worthy of little more than ridicule, honestly.



Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The two state solution based on 1967 borders has been proposed by the Palestinians and refused by Israel multiple times
Which doesn't address the counterpoint I made, at all. Beyond that, should I be especially sympathetic here? They've refused similar and better borders for them, over and over, in favor of trying to conquer it all, then lost. There's nothing especially special, really, about the 1967 border proposals, except that it's a convenient marker from before the surrounding countries ganged up and tried to destroy Israel, yet again. It's a good starting point for discussion, certainly, but why even should Israel agree to such while they have ample reason to believe that agreeing would just lead to more war and blood at the first opportunity the Palestinians think that they have? And of course, the Palestinians have refused when the Israelis try to include provisions to prevent such from happening.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
It is more like wars against Palestine factually based
Clarify your intended nuance, would you? Are you saying that Israel is making war against Palestine or the surrounding Arab countries were making war on Palestine?

The former would be a bit nonsensical, given that Palestine has yet to exist as a country in the first place, in large part because the Palestinians refused to accept the various real opportunities they've had, before getting to the rest of that discussion. The latter could be considered partially true, though, at least. Not especially meaningful, but more true than the former.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
But this is a moot point, since Israel is the party responsible for refusing the two state solution on 1967 borders
And Israel is hardly the only side that has refused a proposal. Your insistence on treating a specific proposal as if it's somehow the only one that's ever mattered or could be accepted is evidence enough of either your lack of objectivity on the matter and/or your lack of willingness to discuss the topic fairly. I'll leave it to you to determine which is or are the case.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Maybe not all the blame but most of the blame, along with you and the other pro-Israeli here
I may as well directly clarify my position again, then. I am not pro-Israeli. I am pro-valid arguments. I am pro-consistent application of valid logic and principles. I do frequently end up "defending" Israel, yes, but that's only because the arguments against it are terrible as arguments in the first place much more frequently. You've certainly not been showing otherwise, which is sad, because there's lots of valid criticisms that can be reasonably made against Israel. Operation Brother's Keeper, for example, is a really, really easy thing to find criticisms about, as one of the specific things.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
PLO never declared any war AFAIK
When the point was made that the bulk of 2014's deaths were combatants in the war that Hamas declared, though, and you pointedly refused to acknowledge that and persist with trying to portray them all as innocent non-combatants that we should hate Israel for killing, the PLO's actions are somewhat irrelevant. With that said, though, recall the Intifadas? The PLO was one of the primary organizations that was involved in organizing and supporting the violence, at last check. While that's not an official declaration of war, that certainly involved turning people into combatants.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
We have already understood that the deaths of several hundreds of palestinian chuildren by israeli rockets is "vacuous" with you, putting you directly in line with the moral position of gentlemen like Saddam Hussein and Osama who promoted similar policies as your friend Netanyahu.
Do not cry foul, if in the future the table turns, as it happens in history
Ahh, well. You're just keeping it clear that you've got no real arguments to support your foolishness here. I, at least, am completely unimpressed by your false accusations and inability to address what was said.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Because the PLO and at least Palestinians in the West Bank do not have a policy of eternal war.
Which matters... how? Hamas was in question there, not the PLO or West Bank. And the Abbas-Hamas conflict is something separate, but noteworthy, as well, when it comes to how viable Israel arbitrarily returning to the 1967 borders would be when it comes to actually obtaining peace, rather than notably more bloodshed.
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Old 12th October 2016, 02:47 AM   #1357
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Right back at you. Yes, the quality of life is worse for the Palestinians than the Israelis in many ways. This is not news and it has no real relevance to what was under discussion.
And has extreme relevance to the discussion as it is partly due to Israel blockade this

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Right back at you, again. Is Israel forcing Egypt to blockade Gaza?
No, but who is proposing a bloody dictatorship as example of human rights

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, you're completely unable to refute the actual points made, then? Good to know that you think that your neighbors overtly declaring their intent to kill you and take the land that you've been living on for themselves, with no chance of peaceful negotiations, to be unworthy of any reaction at all. Your opinion has been noted and deemed entirely dismissable.
Irrelevant to the point as Israel has been proposed a peace plan and ISrael refuted it
Regardless of what Israel neigjhbors do, Isreal could accept the peace plan
If she doesnt she is guilty as you are

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Hard as it might be for you to comprehend, I really do care about them about as much as I care about the Israeli deaths.
You do not for sure. It is guaranteed

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Either way, it's a bit sad when my expectation for foolish responses is met. You're accusing me of racism on the basis of me pretty much entirely ignoring race, ethnicity, nationality, and the like as things that actually matter at all when it comes to how one should feel about the deaths. No, I don't see any good reason to treat either the Israelis or the Palestinians as "special" and deserving of being judged any differently than anyone else. No, I don't see anything particularly good about wishing for more people to die. No, I don't see anything actually "fair" about either equal or unequal numbers of people from each side dying in a conflict, and nor do I see either equal or unequal numbers of deaths as saying just about anything at all of value regarding how one should react to any particular death, let alone them collectively. So, I'm curious. Why are you doing or supporting doing these things?
You do not care about whose nationality are the deaths as they are miostly Palestinians and you and your friends could not care less about them

You hypocrite

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And that the Israeli policies are in place because of Hamas' policies and actions seems to mean nothing to you, it seems.
Liar.

The fact that Israel does not accept the two state solution on 1967 borders has nothing to do with Hamas

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
This was already understood, though, as well, given your poor attempt at apologetics. A government tends to be responsible for how their actions affect the people they govern, especially when their actions have obvious and predictable reactions. Trying to push all the blame elsewhere is worthy of little more than ridicule, honestly.
And this is only valid for Hamas, not for Israel, you hypcrite

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Which doesn't address the counterpoint I made, at all. Beyond that, should I be especially sympathetic here? They've refused similar and better borders for them, over and over, in favor of trying to conquer it all, then lost.
They have never been proposed a two state solution on 1967 borders

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
There's nothing especially special, really, about the 1967 border proposals, except that it's a convenient marker from before the surrounding countries ganged up and tried to destroy Israel, yet again.
Liar
They have been proposed a final peace in 2002

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It's a good starting point for discussion, certainly, but why even should Israel agree to such while they have ample reason to believe that agreeing would just lead to more war and blood at the first opportunity the Palestinians think that they have?
Israel could go back to 1967 borders nonetheless
If then some Palestinians attack Israel it would be mostly their faults
Now, it is mostly your fault and Israel fault
Got it

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And of course, the Palestinians have refused when the Israelis try to include provisions to prevent such from happening.
Moot point
As Israel refused to go back to 1967 b

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Clarify your intended nuance, would you? Are you saying that Israel is making war against Palestine or the surrounding Arab countries were making war on Palestine?

The former would be a bit nonsensical, given that Palestine has yet to exist as a country in the first place,
Liar
Palestine is a state under the UN

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
in large part because the Palestinians refused to accept the various real opportunities they've had, before getting to the rest of that discussion.
Moot point
As they have never been proposed a two state solution on 1967

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The latter could be considered partially true, though, at least. Not especially meaningful, but more true than the former.

And Israel is hardly the only side that has refused a proposal.
Still the major side
Which makes you and Israel wrong

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Your insistence on treating a specific proposal as if it's somehow the only one that's ever mattered or could be accepted is evidence enough of either your lack of objectivity on the matter and/or your lack of willingness to discuss the topic fairly. I'll leave it to you to determine which is or are the case.
Only one or not, this was the just proposal, most Palestinians accepted it, Israel refused it
Israel is guilty
And you are guilty as well

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I may as well directly clarify my position again, then. I am not pro-Israeli.
You are

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I am pro-valid arguments. I am pro-consistent application of valid logic and principles. I do frequently end up "defending" Israel, yes, but that's only because the arguments against it are terrible as arguments in the first place much more frequently. You've certainly not been showing otherwise, which is sad, because there's lots of valid criticisms that can be reasonably made against Israel. Operation Brother's Keeper, for example, is a really, really easy thing to find criticisms about, as one of the specific things.
Irrelevant

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
When the point was made that the bulk of 2014's deaths were combatants in the war that Hamas declared, though, and you pointedly refused to acknowledge that and persist with trying to portray them all as innocent non-combatants that we should hate Israel for killing, the PLO's actions are somewhat irrelevant.
I never said they were all innocents
I have said that Israel, and you, Ziggurat, TBV, and all your friends are guilty of the deaths of 500 children
Hamas also guilty, probably, but you even more
So I do not believe when you say you are compassionate about the victims of the Shoah as I believe you do not care about them at all
There is no such thing as one-sided compassion

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
With that said, though, recall the Intifadas? The PLO was one of the primary organizations that was involved in organizing and supporting the violence, at last check. While that's not an official declaration of war, that certainly involved turning people into combatants.
If some Palestinians are wrong, you and Israel are even more wrong

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ahh, well. You're just keeping it clear that you've got no real arguments to support your foolishness here. I, at least, am completely unimpressed by your false accusations and inability to address what was said.
You do not want to hear and you do not want to see as you do not care about the blood you have on your hands

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Which matters... how? Hamas was in question there, not the PLO or West Bank. And the Abbas-Hamas conflict is something separate, but noteworthy, as well, when it comes to how viable Israel arbitrarily returning to the 1967 borders would be when it comes to actually obtaining peace, rather than notably more bloodshed.
There is no reason to believe that returning to 1967 borders would lead to more war.
There is no excuse
You just stick to your point as you, TBV, Ziggurat, Mycroft and the other nonsensical pro-Israel fanatics do not want to see that you are wrong.

I have no more time to spend as I a sure, if Israel started to bomb Gaza tomorrow for no reason whatsoever, you would still blame Palestinians

Better to invest my time to help the victims than discuss with fanatics who do not care about lives and do now want to hear

As all exploitative systems in the world have come down, the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians and the Arabs will come down as well.
Maybe in a pacific way
Maybe in a non - pacific way
But it will come down for sure
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Old 12th October 2016, 03:54 AM   #1358
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Your opinion
It's not opinion, Sasha. Your continued denial of historical fact is quite astounding.

Quote:
That` s stupid as
1) Most Palestinians are OK with going back to the 1967 borders and having two state solution in peace
Most Palestinians aren't in charge. Hamas and their like are. And Hamas is not OK with the 1967 borders.

Quote:
I do not own any such book
You're doing an awfully good impression.

Quote:
Powerful Jews in the 20s were laughing off the Nazis as they thought they were stupid
Ten years later they stopped laughing
Twenty years later you know what happened
You are laughing off the Palestinians and the Arabs today as you have more military and more money
God help tables may not turn tomorrow
You contradict yourself again. Setting aside the fact that Jews were NOT very powerful in 1920's Germany, the problem you refer to is that people didn't fight back against the Nazis when they had the chance to. Israel is fighting back against Hamas and the other Islamic terrorists, and that's precisely what you blame them for. Israel isn't laughing off the Palestinians and Arabs, but you want them to.

You can't even get your antisemitism to have any internal logical consistency.
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Old 12th October 2016, 11:10 AM   #1359
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
And has extreme relevance to the discussion as it is partly due to Israel blockade this
It is partially due to the blockade, yes. That doesn't mean that it's relevant, though. Rather, it's more like you've been trying to grasp at straws for reasons to try to blame everything on Israel and nothing on any Palestinians, including Hamas.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
No, but who is proposing a bloody dictatorship as example of human rights
Perhaps you could take a step back? I've proposed no one as an "example of human rights" and such would be entirely irrelevant to the line of discussion in this part anyways.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Irrelevant to the point as Israel has been proposed a peace plan and ISrael refuted it
Regardless of what Israel neigjhbors do, Isreal could accept the peace plan
And if Israel has no good reason to believe that peace would actually result from the "peace plan" that you speak of and excellent reason to believe that the opposite would happen?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If she doesnt she is guilty as you are
Your assessment of guilt is as nonsensical as ever.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You do not for sure. It is guaranteed
Based on?


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You do not care about whose nationality are the deaths as they are miostly Palestinians and you and your friends could not care less about them

You hypocrite
So, are these false accusations made to try to comfort yourself? Is it really that hard to believe that people can have notably different and less biased perspectives than you?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Liar.

The fact that Israel does not accept the two state solution on 1967 borders has nothing to do with Hamas
Which is a different issue than the blockade that was in question, first of all, and is a half-truth, at best, beyond that. It's rare that I've seen someone try to move the goalposts as quickly and furiously as you've been doing.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
And this is only valid for Hamas, not for Israel, you hypcrite
Hardly.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
They have never been proposed a two state solution on 1967 borders
Camp David doesn't count?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Liar
They have been proposed a final peace in 2002
And that's what makes it special? That's not really particularly of note, then.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel could go back to 1967 borders nonetheless
If then some Palestinians attack Israel it would be mostly their faults
So, you want to directly invite war and lots more dead Palestinians. Gotcha.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Now, it is mostly your fault
I'm wondering how, exactly, you're justifying this nonsense in your head? There's pretty much no sane way that it even can work.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Moot point
As Israel refused to go back to 1967 b
And your insistence on this as if it was somehow a trump card for your position is still quite unimpressive.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Liar
Palestine is a state under the UN
Even if we grant that as true, blatantly and emptily political as that move of the UN GA was, Palestine does not have land or borders to its name and was not in existence during the wars that could reasonably have been referenced in the first place. Your claim is of little to no value to the discussion.



Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Moot point
As they have never been proposed a two state solution on 1967
You don't even pay attention to what you're saying or reading most of the time, do you?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Still the major side
Which makes you and Israel wrong
Major based on what? When it comes to actually making an agreement, both sides are equally important. Israel has a great advantage, over all, in many ways, but cannot make an agreement unilaterally, anymore than anyone else can.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Only one or not, this was the just proposal, most Palestinians accepted it, Israel refused it
Israel is guilty
And you are guilty as wel
Your blatantly irrational double standards are apparently all that matters when it comes to your assessments.



Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You are

Irrelevant
My, such an incredible refutation. I'm like, sooooo convinced that my position isn't what I said it is by that.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I never said they were all innocents
I have said that Israel, and you, Ziggurat, TBV, and all your friends are guilty of the deaths of 500 children
And your justification for that is?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Hamas also guilty, probably, but you even more
And your justification for that is?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So I do not believe when you say you are compassionate about the victims of the Shoah as I believe you do not care about them at all
To be more specific, I claimed to care about the dead Palestinians equally as much as I care about the dead Israelis. There's not much point in arguing about exactly how much I actually care about them, though, here.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There is no such thing as one-sided compassion
Given the words you chose, this looks a bit nonsensical as a statement. Moving on.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If some Palestinians are wrong, you and Israel are even more wrong
Based on?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You do not want to hear and you do not want to see as you do not care about the blood you have on your hands
First, can you make a case that's not utterly insane for why the blood would be on my hands?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There is no reason to believe that returning to 1967 borders would lead to more war.
Sure. If you pointedly ignore all the reasons why a unilateral return to that would lead to that, you can claim that. Most of the rest of us seem to be uninterested in ignoring things of relevance, though.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I have no more time to spend as I a sure, if Israel started to bomb Gaza tomorrow for no reason whatsoever, you would still blame Palestinians
If it was largely unjustified, I quite would be blaming the Israelis, as I have for many things so far. I even pointedly just gave a really easy example of something I blamed Israel as in the wrong for, which you seem to have pointedly ignored because it didn't fit your entirely made up narrative of me being a pro-Israeli and anti-Arab extremist murderer.
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Old 12th October 2016, 01:38 PM   #1360
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Palestine is behind Brazil, Turkey, Jordan ..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ife_expectancy
That site has five different lists, only one of which includes Gaza. On the list that includes Gaza, the CIA Factbook list, the rankings are:

#29 Jordan, 80.05 years.
#83 Brazil, 75.35 years
#107 Gaza, 73.42 years
#120 Egypt, 72.12 years
#122 Turkey, 71.96 years
#142 Russia, 70.3 years.

So by that list in terms of life expectancy, Gaza is indeed worse off than Jordan and Brazil, but is still ahead of Egypt, Turkey and Russia. Gaza is ahead of a lot of Europe, though mostly Eastern Europe. So my takeaway is a different source still supports my point.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You are not entitled to tell other countries how to behave.
Lol! But you are?!!

If the citizens of Gaza are Happy that Hamas prioritizes war over paying their hospital staff, is okay with Hamas using children to dig their tunnels, is happy with about 25% of Hamas rockets falling short and landing in Gaza so they actually kill more Gazans than Israelis, if they're okay that Hamas favors it’s own supporters in distributing aid, money and jobs, are happy with Hamas telling people not to evacuate areas targeted by the IDF and are happy with eternal war, then they should definitely vote for Hamas. Well, if they ever get a chance to vote again.

However, if the topic is making peace and improving the lives of Gazans, then the behavior of Hamas is very relevant, and you can’t have a rational discussion without looking at what Hamas is doing and what it could do differently. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and their choices very much control the wellbeing of Gaza citizens.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Because the PLO and at least Palestinians in the West Bank do not have a policy of eternal war.
Don’t they? Don’t you?

Why is Hamas building more tunnels and rockets? Why is Fatah doing everything it can to achieve independence except making peace with Israel?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
It is you and your friends who have a policy of eternal war. And one day you may well suffer the consequences
This is like the fourth time you’ve made that threat. If I were to make a similar threat, that someday Israel may get tired of the needle-pricks from Palestinian terrorists and Palestinians would “suffer the consequences”, what would you think of it?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Moot point
Israel never accepted to go back to their 1967 borders…X4
The negotiations you hand-wave away are all pretty close to that. Tell me, is it your opinion that Palestinians should wage war unless Israel cedes every last square inch of land gained in 1967? Is there any room for negotiation in your mind? Are land swaps agreeable to you?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Moot point
Isreal regardeless what happened 50 years ago, could achieve peace by going back to their 1967 borders
How come one thing that happened 50 years ago is irrelevant but another thing that happened 50 years ago isn’t? Why the double standard?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So he should be willing to achieve peace by asking Israel to go back to their borders
At least that would be negotiation.

If he asked Israel to go back to the 1967 borders and Israel said, ”Sure, okay, but what if we traded these lands here for those other land there?” Would if be okay with you if Abbas negotiated a little?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The side who has the biggest military power bears much of the responsibility so Israel has more responsibility
Uh-huh, but you said, ” Do not cry foul, if in the future the table turns, as it happens in history” which implies that if the situation were reversed and it were the Palestinians who had more power, you would not apply the same standard.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
It is not calling for anything
As regardless of what all Palestinian leadership says and do, Israel could have accepted the offer of peace and go back to their 1967 borders
If they did not, they are at fault
When you excuse Palestinian leadership from any and all responsibility for creating peace, then define the parameters of peace very narrowly, the implication is you’re okay with eternal war. For there to be peace, both sides will have to cooperate to make it happen, and both sides will need to compromise.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I am not racist, as I am OK with two state solution based on 1967 borders living in peace What abut you
You’re a racist for blaming Jews for the Holocaust claiming they haven’t learned their lesson. You’re also a racist for repeatedly suggesting they would have it coming if another Holocaust happened. These things alone make you a racist regardless of your opinion on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I also support a two state solution. I believe the two sides should get together as soon as possible to work out the details.

I doubt your sincerity on this because you have previously told me that I shouldn’t be allowed to tell Hamas what to do when I suggested they use their resources for the betterment of their people rather than to wage war, and when I suggested encouraging Abbas to negotiate with Israel for peace you responded saying, ” Kill the victim and then blame him as he did not want peace. How typically American!!” (post #1318)

I don’t see how you can claim to want peace between Israel and Palestinians when you object to any and all Palestinian participation in the peace process.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Did this happen in the lat 50 years
Is 50 years your statute of limitations? So by that standard, all we need do is wait another couple years and Palestinians will no longer have claim to anything outside of Gaza and Areas A and B?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Palestinians are taking land from Israel?
No they are not, but they certainly are trying. What do you think Hamas is doing with all those rockets? Or the knife attacks?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not think that asking a country to stay within its borders is a sign of ahaatred
Blaming Jews for the Holocaust, claiming they haven’t learned their lesson and threatening that another Holocaust could happen certainly are signs of hatred.

In addition, the 1967 borders were never the official borders of Israel. UNSCR 242 calls for those borders to be negotiated between the belligerent parties, and right now that means Israel and the Palestine National Authority.

Last edited by Mycroft; 12th October 2016 at 01:49 PM.
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