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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 12th October 2016, 02:20 PM   #1361
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
In addition, the 1967 borders were never the official borders of Israel. UNSCR 242 calls for those borders to be negotiated between the belligerent parties, and right now that means Israel and the Palestine National Authority.
Indeed, this is a point that certainly needs to not be forgotten in any honest discussion about the borders themselves. The 1967 borders were never official borders in the first place, with the only arguable exception being the border with Lebanon, and the only reason why those lines existed in the first place was because Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan tried to destroy Israel with war and failed. It's completely nonsensical for SashatheMagnificent to place the emphasis that he does on them.

But then... given the quality and nature of his arguments, I'm somewhat suspecting SashatheMagnificent of actually being a Jew or other pro-Israeli just trying to convince others that the Pro-Palestine position is morally bankrupt, intellectually bankrupt, and pathetically irrational. But, then, it's hard to tell, I suppose. I've never found any real value in scapegoating, but am aware that many people have, and SashatheMagnificent seems to be doing little more than using Israel as a scapegoat and tacking on everyone who doesn't use Israel as a scapegoat onto that as also part of his scapegoat.
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Old 12th October 2016, 05:29 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
But then... given the quality and nature of his arguments, I'm somewhat suspecting SashatheMagnificent of actually being a Jew or other pro-Israeli just trying to convince others that the Pro-Palestine position is morally bankrupt, intellectually bankrupt, and pathetically irrational.
I can't exclude that possibility. The cloddish racism and buffoonish bungling of simple fact seems over the top.
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Old 16th October 2016, 09:02 AM   #1363
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This just in....

Quote:
On Friday I spoke with newly elected UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres. I shared with him the outrage of all Israelis following Thursday's UNESCO decision that once again denied the over 3,000 year old connection between the Jewish people and its holiest site in Jerusalem, the Temple Mount. This was the site of Solomon's Temple described in book of Kings in the Bible. It was the site of the second temple built by Jewish exiles who returned from Babylon some 500 years later. It was this second temple that was refurbished by King Herod and visited by Jesus as recounted in the New Testament. ~
Benjamin Netanyahu
Read the full article here
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Old 16th October 2016, 10:44 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
What if there were a two state solution, and there were Jewish people who became citizens of "Palestine" because they believe it's their religious duty to live in "Samaria", and these Jewish people had the same rights as their Palestinian countrymen just like Arab-Israeli citizens do in Israel?

Would that be so impossible to imagine?
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Old 16th October 2016, 01:43 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What if there were a two state solution, and there were Jewish people who became citizens of "Palestine" because they believe it's their religious duty to live in "Samaria", and these Jewish people had the same rights as their Palestinian countrymen just like Arab-Israeli citizens do in Israel?

Would that be so impossible to imagine?
Hitherto no thing is impossible to imagine and that is not likely to change. But imagining things into reality has to deal with the state of reality now and that requires taking everything into consideration.

Your question strongly implies a brand new way of thinking, to which I encourage in relation to my own opinion regarding the state of the world, and the Middle East conflicts...the human race could do a lot better for itself if it removed race and boarders altogether. A step toward this would be in allowing others all equal rights within boarders and no recognition of differences between cultures which cause conflict.

Easy enough to imagine. Far harder to implement due to the nature of unhealthy attitudes passed down from adult to child - a thing all cultures are guilty of perpetrating...such as is the case, the action works as a scent carried and you are required to have some kind of certain 'smell' about you in relation to your handed down belief systems...those ones specifically which promote conflict seem so much harder to wash off.

Chances of such actually happening though are very slim. It is far too ingrained to simply remove and thus 'what will be will be' even that what once were prophetic utterances are now far more obviously easy to predict outcomes.

Having a religious view regarding living in "Samaria" out of a sense of duty (for the Judaist idea of god) is about being an example to the non Jews regarding the correct life to live, in relation to [His] tenants. Stripe away the cosmetics and this amounts to living peaceably and with equal regard/respect for one another with in mind of a future where all is good for one and all.

In this there is no doubt Israel excells within her own boarders, with her own people...remember the time when they were more dispersed into the world? Their example left much to be desired because they tended to hoard everything and give it to themselves ... and that is a broad generalization but nonetheless - in relation to being a good example, this was not about the rest of the world but about The Jew forced into dispersing into the rest of the world and surviving as a culture.

The investment paid off when the door opened for the return and one simply cannot argue against the legitimacy of that return and thus the world is occupied with not only a Jewish homeland/state, but also with the fruits gained through the dispersion to which ownership (property/investment) is a predominant thing.

Ultimately is such a thing a good example? Taking into account the prison like nature of the planet in relation to the human beings upon it, surviving as a race (Jewish) has been a necessary thing in relation to their beliefs in their idea of God. They are here for the long haul and if it does get down to nukes, they will strike and destroy the enemy as they have always done - when they have had means to do so. That is a promise.

Thus the bullies run the joint at every level of human society in all cases and the weak/poor are simply left to imagine a world without them.

It is what the Abrahamic God (of many names) requires and being that [He] is in the position of overall Warden/Administrator, and requires - in the simplest of terms - The Taming of The Beast - the walls remain, the different cell-blocks represented by Race/Nation with subset hierarchies vying for a piece of the pie within those structures.

Israel is a good example of what can be achieved when enough $ and focused energy can achieve for their section of the prison complex (Planet Earth) instigated by that need to be seen by the rest of the world, to be The Example of how things should be done...

This is where Benjamin Netanyahu is coming from in his complaint against the UN - the superpowers are one thing and the poorer nations are another and those poorer nations altogether are voicing their concerns against the actions of Israel because they do not enjoy the position of underdog and it is easy enough to pick out Israels faults and pack together as a voice of criticism and concern in relation to those faults.

In other words, the poorer nations do not see any good example in the overall manner in which Israel is conducting [Her] affairs and Benjamin Netanyahu takes issue with this and consistently warns the world that to take the side of The Beast is to invite real trouble in the future.

"The Beast' in every sense is the under-disciplined pauper mentality which has been seduced by the dark forces of evil (terrorism/radicalism etc) for purposes of resisting to the death any attempt by Israel and [Her] God to tidy up the world and deal with the rouges who run their particular prison blocks with merciless disregard for the welfare of the people within those blocks/boarders.

I have to say that from an observers position, to make a prison a paradise, even that such would require the abolition of those types of structures which suppress and crush the vitality and potential of the Human Spirit, is far better for all the prisoners than what is presently in vogue - the status quo of the hand-me-down mentality is the main cause of all conflict and the Human Race needs to grow up and discard those things and learn how to tame The Beast that it derives from.

One solution might just be to invest extremely heavily in Israel to help it achieve its best potential on the understanding that the benefits of such investment will be shared out into the rest of the world as a matter of course...if Israel can achieve peace within [her] boarders and equality among [Her] own, then she will also have the blueprint available for all other nations to follow suit and before long the only 'race' would be the 'human' one.

Mission accomplished.
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Old 20th October 2016, 11:36 AM   #1366
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Saudi Arabia seems to be thawing towards Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...esponse-470461

Quote:
Writing last week in the Washington, DC publication The Hill, Salman al-Ansari, founder and president of the Saudi America Public Relations Affairs Committee, invoked history, economics and strategic reasons in support of why the two countries should forge a strong alliance.

The “prevailing political discourse might indicate that it is not only in the interest of both countries to form a collaborative alliance, but in the interest of the greater Middle East and their global allies as well,” he wrote.
So...over time even the hardest of hearts will soften?
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Old 20th October 2016, 02:01 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Saudi Arabia seems to be thawing towards Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...esponse-470461



So...over time even the hardest of hearts will soften?
It depends upon the underlying motivation. Sincere Peace in the Middle East for the sake of all the world and a new impetus based upon less of what is handed down and more of seeing the predicament we face by continued implementation of the old ways.

Hard hearts - hardheartedness - is what has created our present systems...softening/opening hearts is something which all sides have to agree to move with and have the correct agenda toward for long term implementation and growth which excludes no individual apart from those whom might continue excluding themselves.

Building a paradise is the preferential [far more sensible operandi modus to adopt rather than the continued development of building a prison. [over the face of the Earth].

The choice, as usual, is everyone's...however, the choice to build paradise is not exactly one which is touted by those doing the leading...more opportunity toward that initiative is necessary from that sector...[open hearts again]....build it and they will come...more to the point, offer it as an alternative and they will build it themselves.

I think at least most of the worlds population would favor support in building paradise rather than continuing on present course...once they realize that their 'freedoms' under the present system(s) are more the illusion than the actuality...and that they could be offered a way out of that mess with something more practical which their collective leaders could create...a plan on how to transform from the less favorable position to the more favorable...
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Old 20th October 2016, 05:24 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
It depends upon the underlying motivation. Sincere Peace in the Middle East for the sake of all the world and a new impetus based upon less of what is handed down and more of seeing the predicament we face by continued implementation of the old ways.

Hard hearts - hardheartedness - is what has created our present systems...softening/opening hearts is something which all sides have to agree to move with and have the correct agenda toward for long term implementation and growth which excludes no individual apart from those whom might continue excluding themselves.

Building a paradise is the preferential [far more sensible operandi modus to adopt rather than the continued development of building a prison. [over the face of the Earth].

The choice, as usual, is everyone's...however, the choice to build paradise is not exactly one which is touted by those doing the leading...more opportunity toward that initiative is necessary from that sector...[open hearts again]....build it and they will come...more to the point, offer it as an alternative and they will build it themselves.

I think at least most of the worlds population would favor support in building paradise rather than continuing on present course...once they realize that their 'freedoms' under the present system(s) are more the illusion than the actuality...and that they could be offered a way out of that mess with something more practical which their collective leaders could create...a plan on how to transform from the less favorable position to the more favorable...
Sounds good. Problem is, the very serious business of risk/reward calculations conducted on the highest possible stakes over a wide lane of some of the most volatile and violent real estate on the planet. Still sounds good.
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Old 26th October 2016, 11:29 AM   #1369
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...anned-in-gaza/

Quote:
A Palestinian paper interviewed an Israeli minister, and now it could be banned in Gaza
The article was wide-ranging. It covered opinions about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and talk about what Israel might do the next time it comes up against the Islamist militant group Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
But it was not the contents of the rare interview that Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman gave to the Palestinian newspaper al-Quds this week that has drawn the ire of Palestinians. It’s that the article gave voice to one of Israel’s most hawkish, hard-line politicians.
<snip>

In Gaza, press office chief Salama Marouf said Hamas was considering banning the newspaper. He said al-Quds had acted illegally because, according to Palestinian law, “all kinds of normalization with Israel is considered criminal.”
“What the paper did is inexcusable on a professional level and criminal on a national level, especially when it comes to the extremist Lieberman, who is provocative and ignores the rights of Palestinian people,” Marouf said.
Palestinians in Gaza are not even allowed to be exposed to an interview of someone who’s views can dramatically affect their lives because it might “normalize” a relationship with Israel.
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Old 26th October 2016, 03:00 PM   #1370
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I suspect that Syria and Iraq have made peace in Israel/Palestine impossible for the foreseeable future. Why?

- Israeli forces can say "we're better than our neighbours!" with a straight face
- Both sides can say "A one state solution will turn into Syria or Iraq!"
- Israel can just point to Hamas's support for Assad
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Old 26th October 2016, 07:30 PM   #1371
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I think this data is appropriate to the thread topic...

...

Racial identity is a biological nonsense, says Reith lecturer ~ theguardian.com...
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Old 26th October 2016, 10:48 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not opinion, Sasha. Your continued denial of historical fact is quite astounding.
It is

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Most Palestinians aren't in charge. Hamas and their like are. And Hamas is not OK with the 1967 borders.
It is not me who supports Hamas killings
It is you who do support Hamas like killings

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're doing an awfully good impression.
To the misinformed maybe

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You contradict yourself again. Setting aside the fact that Jews were NOT very powerful in 1920's Germany, the problem you refer to is that people didn't fight back against the Nazis when they had the chance to. Israel is fighting back against Hamas and the other Islamic terrorists, and that's precisely what you blame them for. Israel isn't laughing off the Palestinians and Arabs, but you want them to.
They were

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You can't even get your antisemitism to have any internal logical consistency.
I assume if I defended Jews in 1930s you would have called me anti-German
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Old 26th October 2016, 10:49 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I suspect that Syria and Iraq have made peace in Israel/Palestine impossible for the foreseeable future. Why?

- Israeli forces can say "we're better than our neighbours!" with a straight face
- Both sides can say "A one state solution will turn into Syria or Iraq!"
- Israel can just point to Hamas's support for Assad
So what?
When the war will be over then it will be 7 million Jews against 1.6 billion Muslims

If I were a Jew living in Israel I would keep my passport ready on the table just in case
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Old 26th October 2016, 10:50 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Indeed, this is a point that certainly needs to not be forgotten in any honest discussion about the borders themselves. The 1967 borders were never official borders in the first place,
Great
Do not complain then if a revolution in the area will kick out the Jews back to Europe and kill the Israeli apartheid state
After all, there were no borders in first place
Right?
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Old 26th October 2016, 10:53 PM   #1375
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I can't exclude that possibility. The cloddish racism and buffoonish bungling of simple fact seems over the top.
You should not call Aridas as racists and buffoon
This is against the rules
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Old 26th October 2016, 11:26 PM   #1376
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Great
Do not complain then if a revolution in the area will kick out the Jews back to Europe and kill the Israeli apartheid state
After all, there were no borders in first place
Right?
Why would I complain about a revolution in the area or Israel ceasing to be, regardless? I have no vested interest in Israel's existence in the first place, let alone its continued existence, for the latter, for example, any more than I do for, say, Azerbaijan. With that said, though, I can and would quite certainly condemn war crimes, among various other things, and actually don't see things notably improving for the Palestinians, even if they somehow succeeded in driving away the Jews and claiming that land in a revolution. For things to improve notably, it would require very different things to happen than conquering land via war. Either way, there's not much to respect about your opinion, especially when you make responses like the quoted here and

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You should not call Aridas as racists and buffoon
This is against the rules
So, with that said, is there any good reason not to treat you as a Jew trying to undermine any and all legitimate pro-Palestinian arguments with insane, pro-murder, and/or intentionally offensive claims?
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Last edited by Aridas; 26th October 2016 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 27th October 2016, 12:04 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You should not call Aridas as racists and buffoon
This is against the rules
Obviously, I wasn't calling Aridas anything of the sort. I was calling your comments racist and buffoonish... which, of course, they are. In fact, the degree of those qualities displayed in your "arguments" indicates they might be attempts at parody. Probably not, but I can't dismiss the possibility.

But, if you think the MA has been violated, by all means report it. I suppose that if you continue frivolously abusing the report function with nonsense, things will end up taking care of themselves.
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Old 27th October 2016, 03:57 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Obviously, I wasn't calling Aridas anything of the sort.
Oh really

Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
But, if you think the MA has been violated, by all means report it. I suppose that if you continue frivolously abusing the report function with nonsense, things will end up taking care of themselves.
Ah! I will not, do not worry
First as they will not listen to me as you have called me as "nazi", "keyboard coward" and you never got infracted while I called some people as "lazy majority" and got suspended

Heck, I can not even post anything in the member` s section as I am banned there
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Old 27th October 2016, 03:59 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Why would I complain about a revolution in the area or Israel ceasing to be, regardless? I have no vested interest in Israel's existence in the first place, let alone its continued existence, for the latter, for example, any more than I do for, say, Azerbaijan. With that said, though, I can and would quite certainly condemn war crimes, among various other things, and actually don't see things notably improving for the Palestinians, even if they somehow succeeded in driving away the Jews and claiming that land in a revolution. For things to improve notably, it would require very different things to happen than conquering land via war.
At least Gaza would not be under siege

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Either way, there's not much to respect about your opinion, especially when you make responses like the quoted here and
Ah, respect by guys like Trust By Verify you mean?


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, with that said, is there any good reason not to treat you as a Jew trying to undermine any and all legitimate pro-Palestinian arguments with insane, pro-murder, and/or intentionally offensive claims?
Treat me like you wish
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Old 27th October 2016, 05:10 AM   #1380
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
At least Gaza would not be under siege
That would be a good goal, wouldn't it?

Guess what! I have this other method by which that could be accomplished!

Can you guess what it is?
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Old 27th October 2016, 08:13 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Oh really
Clearly.

Quote:
Ah! I will not, do not worry
Worried? I'm anything but. Please, please report the post.

Quote:
First as they will not listen to me...
They will listen. Then they will laugh.

Quote:
Heck, I can not even post anything in the member` s section as I am banned there
That would be because you repeatedly violate the MA. But you still have every right to report posts you believe are outside the forum rules. I say, go for it!
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Old 27th October 2016, 11:47 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
At least Gaza would not be under siege
Strangely enough, there's a actually rather simple way to end the "siege" on Gaza. It doesn't involve murder. It doesn't involve earning certain backlash from the international community. It doesn't even involve pushing the common folk to martyr themselves.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Ah, respect by guys like Trust By Verify you mean?
If the arguments presented are worthless, no one should respect the arguments.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Treat me like you wish
So, you've got nothing to even suggest otherwise. No surprise there.
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Old 27th October 2016, 03:41 PM   #1383
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Clearly.


Worried? I'm anything but. Please, please report the post.


They will listen. Then they will laugh.


That would be because you repeatedly violate the MA. But you still have every right to report posts you believe are outside the forum rules. I say, go for it!
I can not continue this fascinating conversation with you as we are off-topic and surely the uberlords will come and we know who will be in trouble

Please let` s continue it in the appropriate section I will join after my suyspension is lifter in about one month
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Old 27th October 2016, 03:43 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Strangely enough, there's a actually rather simple way to end the "siege" on Gaza. It doesn't involve murder. It doesn't involve earning certain backlash from the international community. It doesn't even involve pushing the common folk to martyr themselves.
A nuclear bomb dropped on Telaviv?
Hey, I am against the Zio Nazis but I do not support mass murder of them

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If the arguments presented are worthless, no one should respect the arguments.
For TBV the lives or Palestinians seem very much worthless
And not only to him

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Old 27th October 2016, 06:33 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I assume if I defended Jews in 1930s you would have called me anti-German
Exactly. Different actors, same ideology.
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Old 27th October 2016, 06:56 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I can not continue this fascinating conversation with you as we are off-topic and surely the uberlords will come and we know who will be in trouble.
Interesting how your English suddenly improves when you find yourself cornered.
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Old 27th October 2016, 07:04 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Hey, I am against the Zio Nazis...
But pro the real thing. Typical.

Quote:
For TBV the lives or Palestinians seem very much worthless
That's nothing more than projection. The instant Palestinian lives no longer provide political cover for you, your "interest" in their suffering will vanish.
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Old 27th October 2016, 08:25 PM   #1388
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
A nuclear bomb dropped on Telaviv?
Hey, I am against the Zio Nazis but I do not support mass murder of them
Strange, it's almost like you're blatantly trolling, yet again. But naw, that couldn't be the case with a poster like you, could it?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
For TBV the lives or Palestinians seem very much worthless
And not only to him

By what measure? That trustbutverify and others aren't pointedly ignoring numerous relevant facts doesn't mean that the lives of the Palestinians are being treated as worthless by them. Rather, when people make arguments and claims like a number of the ones that you've made, it quite seems like they think that the Palestinians in general should be treated like 2-year olds, not adults, if they actually qualify as people rather than a convenient tool in the first place.
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Old 27th October 2016, 09:01 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
But pro the real thing. Typical.
Talking with you is like talking to a wall
I am not really pro-Hamas but I can imagine the discussion they may had with the Israeli

Hamas "We want freedom, we offer a truce.."
Israel "Do as we order you or we will bomb you again and.."

There is really no point to talk to people like you
I mean, here and in any other place

I do not support Nazis as well

But there were some reasons why they decided to take up the Joos instead of the Italians/Spanish/English/French

If this will ever happen again, hopefully not, do not hope for Stalin saving you in Stalingrad

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Old 27th October 2016, 09:07 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Strange, it's almost like you're blatantly trolling, yet again. But naw, that couldn't be the case with a poster like you, could it?
Why you talk to me, then?

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
By what measure? That trustbutverify and others aren't pointedly ignoring numerous relevant facts doesn't mean that the lives of the Palestinians are being treated as worthless by them. Rather, when people make arguments and claims like a number of the ones that you've made, it quite seems like they think that the Palestinians in general should be treated like 2-year olds, not adults, if they actually qualify as people rather than a convenient tool in the first place.
The way of thinking of you, TBV, Ziggurat, Mycroft and many others do not differ much from that of Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin and their supporters
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Old 28th October 2016, 02:21 AM   #1391
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Talking with you is like talking to a wall
I am not really pro-Hamas but I can imagine the discussion they may had with the Israeli

Hamas "We want freedom, we offer a truce.."
What kind of truce are you talking about, exactly? You seem to want to ignore that Hamas is pointedly and loudly anti-Israel's continued existence, but still wants Israel to treat them as if they were on friendly terms.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Israel "Do as we order you or we will bomb you again and.."
Is it worth reminding you that Israel's part of the 2014 bombing of Gaza was only started after Hamas had been concertedly launching attacks at Israel for a fair while and pointedly ignoring Israel's warnings about what would happen if they failed to stop? Your portrayal is not especially convincing when the evidence doesn't agree with the picture that you're trying to paint.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There is really no point to talk to people like you
I mean, here and in any other place
Depends. Do you want a rational discussion or do you want an echo chamber?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not support Nazis as well

But there were some reasons why they decided to take up the Joos instead of the Italians/Spanish/English/French
Yeah. The foremost of those was fairly certainly the good ole traditional Christian hatred of Jews, as was directly elaborated upon by Hitler, which made them an easy target, rather similar to the other easy targets that were targeted than the Jews. If a new Hitleresque figure arose in Europe at the moment, Muslims would likely be a primary target, for "some reasons."

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If this will ever happen again, hopefully not, do not hope for Stalin saving you in Stalingrad
And?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Why you talk to me, then?
Because I felt like it, and, potentially for the lurkers a little bit. Even the responses to trolls can help educate and enlighten lurkers. Of course, being told that I bear more responsibility for Hamas' choices than Hamas does was quite the amusing joke.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The way of thinking of you, TBV, Ziggurat, Mycroft and many others do not differ much from that of Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin and their supporters
You've asserted this, repeatedly, but have yet to back it up in any real way. Thus, there's little reason to take it as anything more than you frantically trying to discredit the points made by trying to discredit the source, rather than the points made, given that you've demonstrated repeatedly that you're unable to validly argue against the points made. While this tactic has some limited use when applied in a reasonable way, namely, where one can actually show that the source is what one claims, you've not even remotely done so on these forums. Rather, what you've done is far more accurately described as buffoonish libel, to borrow from trustbutverify's description.

With that said, even if your claim here had any factual merit in the first place, which you have completely failed to demonstrate, the fallacious use of reductio ad Hitlerum, like the similarly fallacious use of the rest of the names there, will never make an impressive argument. "Hitler liked art, so if you like art, you should be condemned like Hitler is!" is pretty much exactly as meaningful as the quoted.
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Old 28th October 2016, 05:08 AM   #1392
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
A nuclear bomb dropped on Telaviv?
Hey, I am against the Zio Nazis but I do not support mass murder of them
Is people killing people really the only "solution" you can imagine?

As I said before, it's a recipe for perpetual war. Your ideology contains no path to peace.
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Old 28th October 2016, 07:55 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
What kind of truce are you talking about, exactly? You seem to want to ignore that Hamas is pointedly and loudly anti-Israel's continued existence, but still wants Israel to treat them as if they were on friendly terms.
Keeping Hamas as the most or only guilty part in discussion may be a good strategy for convince brainwashed stupid americans but I doubt will work for the Pakistani, the Iranians and the Turks in the region who will soon become the major regional players

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Is it worth reminding you that Israel's part of the 2014 bombing of Gaza was only started after Hamas had been concertedly launching attacks at Israel for a fair while and pointedly ignoring Israel's warnings about what would happen if they failed to stop? Your portrayal is not especially convincing when the evidence doesn't agree with the picture that you're trying to paint.
See above
The constant parrot of the US propaganda media may convince the stupid majority in the US, but the US is getting weaker by the day and Iran, Turkey are getting stronger
I would

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Depends. Do you want a rational discussion or do you want an echo chamber?
I do not think it is possible to have a rational discussion with many people here
With Israeli, the best strategy is , well, you know what I consider the best strategy

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Yeah. The foremost of those was fairly certainly the good ole traditional Christian hatred of Jews, as was directly elaborated upon by Hitler, which made them an easy target, rather similar to the other easy targets that were targeted than the Jews. If a new Hitleresque figure arose in Europe at the moment, Muslims would likely be a primary target, for "some reasons."
I do not think 300 millions Europeans with all their problems have the force and the power to pick up a battle against 1.6 billion Muslims
On the other hand, I see a problem if 7 million Jews want to keep a battle against 1.6 billion Muslims

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And?
If it were not for good old Uncle Stalin (just ironic, TBV..) we would not be talking about Jews and Israel today
Seen that Jews still have to learn to live in peace with their neighbors, if another problem happens in the future, I do not see Putin save their asses again

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Because I felt like it, and, potentially for the lurkers a little bit. Even the responses to trolls can help educate and enlighten lurkers. Of course, being told that I bear more responsibility for Hamas' choices than Hamas does was quite the amusing joke.
You are wasting your time
Most of the people who write here are severely ideologized, braiwashed people from the West
I doubt they can be educated

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
You've asserted this, repeatedly, but have yet to back it up in any real way. Thus, there's little reason to take it as anything more than you frantically trying to discredit the points made by trying to discredit the source, rather than the points made, given that you've demonstrated repeatedly that you're unable to validly argue against the points made. While this tactic has some limited use when applied in a reasonable way, namely, where one can actually show that the source is what one claims, you've not even remotely done so on these forums. Rather, what you've done is far more accurately described as buffoonish libel, to borrow from trustbutverify's description.

With that said, even if your claim here had any factual merit in the first place, which you have completely failed to demonstrate, the fallacious use of reductio ad Hitlerum, like the similarly fallacious use of the rest of the names there, will never make an impressive argument. "Hitler liked art, so if you like art, you should be condemned like Hitler is!" is pretty much exactly as meaningful as the quoted.
If I put the words of a dictionary into a random generating machine program I would get a text with more meaning than this
Really, a salada of words just to look smart

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Old 28th October 2016, 02:12 PM   #1394
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Keeping Hamas as the most or only guilty part in discussion may be a good strategy for convince brainwashed stupid americans...
Many people disagree with your assessment of the degree of responsibility Hamas holds, but as a practical matter, at what point do you set aside your opinion of who carries the most blame and begin to look at how to achieve the best possible outcome?
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Old 28th October 2016, 05:59 PM   #1395
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Many people disagree with your assessment of the degree of responsibility Hamas holds, but as a practical matter, at what point do you set aside your opinion of who carries the most blame and begin to look at how to achieve the best possible outcome?


At no point before Israel ceases to exist?

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Old 28th October 2016, 10:50 PM   #1396
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Keeping Hamas as the most or only guilty part in discussion may be a good strategy for convince brainwashed stupid americans but I doubt will work for the Pakistani, the Iranians and the Turks in the region who will soon become the major regional players



See above
The constant parrot of the US propaganda media may convince the stupid majority in the US, but the US is getting weaker by the day and Iran, Turkey are getting stronger
I would
Empty complaints about how it's wrong to hold Hamas accountable for it's actions and policies, like every other government is being held accountable for theirs in the discussion by the people you're comparing to Hitler, including Israel, does not make a convincing reason to alter one's opinion. Hamas' strong anti-Israel stance is the current biggest obstacle to peace there, by far. It's hardly the only problem, certainly, but it overshadows the rest immensely. Why should any government treat another government that blatantly seeks to destroy them well? If Hamas honestly changed that, then the discussion about what guilt should go where could become notably closer to evenly matched, certainly. As it stands, though, stupidly and emptily antagonizing one's dramatically stronger neighbors is not something worthy of praise or excuse. That's not to say that Israel's blockade of Gaza or many of the various other limitations that Israel's put in place regarding Gaza, for example, is or are "good" things at all, of course, but rather that there is or probably is sufficient cause to make it a legitimate course of action, at least while Hamas is openly anti-Israel. If Hamas changes that or does something radical like letting the PLO, which has been accepted as the *only* legitimate representative for the Palestinian people by numerous countries and the UN, have control of Gaza, if Israel maintains things as they are, then Israel will likely quite deserve much, much more condemnation there.

If we want to discuss things like the blockade on Gaza, of course, Egypt's blockade of Gaza really can't be honestly avoided. Do you understand why Egypt actually blockaded Gaza? Also, with regards to the US' doings with the blockade, are you aware that the US put pressure on Israel to ease the blockade, repeatedly?

As for your fantasizing about the strength and intelligence of the US, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey, what, exactly, would be relevant about that, even if it were true, which is very doubtful? This is before one even starts to compare the current relative strengths and things like, as was noted earlier in this thread, that the US' military spending outweighs the next several countries in line combined.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not think it is possible to have a rational discussion with many people here
Generally true as that statement can be, it's worth pointing out that you could well be a fair portion of the problem there, given the irrationality and unreasonableness of a number of your statements.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
With Israeli, the best strategy is , well, you know what I consider the best strategy
And we can certainly disagree there, but that's hardly something to be surprised about given that we seem to have different considerations in play.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I do not think 300 millions Europeans with all their problems have the force and the power to pick up a battle against 1.6 billion Muslims
Are those 1.6 billion Muslims all in Europe? Rather, the Muslims in danger would be, first and foremost, the roughly 44 million in Europe, especially the rather large number of them that are recent immigrants, immigrants that have apparently increased the crime rates quite notably, no less. Going past that, there would obviously be a whole lot less in whichever particular country the Hitleresque leader arose in that would be the first targets, with very little that the overwhelming majority of Muslims even could start to do about it. Incidentally, Europe's population is more like 740 million, not 300 million.

Your attempt at posturing and denial is fairly pathetic, really, here.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
On the other hand, I see a problem if 7 million Jews want to keep a battle against 1.6 billion Muslims
Yeah... your math here doesn't work, any more than your previous math did.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If it were not for good old Uncle Stalin (just ironic, TBV..) we would not be talking about Jews and Israel today
Seen that Jews still have to learn to live in peace with their neighbors, if another problem happens in the future, I do not see Putin save their asses again
Ehh, Stalingrad was quite the defeat for Germany, yes, but it's rather difficult to claim that Stalin is why Israel and the Jews exist.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You are wasting your time
Most of the people who write here are severely ideologized, braiwashed people from the West
I doubt they can be educated
Perhaps you could make your arguments without invoking fallacy after fallacy, before claiming that a group can't be educated? Bear in mind that repeating empty propaganda isn't particularly convincing?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If I put the words of a dictionary into a random generating machine program I would get a text with more meaning than this
Really, a salada of words just to look smart
A claimed failure to understand isn't particularly concerning, coming from one who's fairly certainly trolling anyways.

With that said, on the off chance that you actually do need things dumbed down a bit, there are three things that you need to answer if you want to give your claim a chance to not be treated as entirely worthless.

1) What, exactly, are you claiming are the similarities in the views of Ziggurat, trustbutverify, Mycroft, and myself with the views of Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin and their supporters? You've yet to make this clear.
2) On what do you base your claims about what the views of Ziggurat, trustbutverify, Mycroft, and myself are? So far, you've seemed to take immerse liberties with your claims about what a poster believes, frequently to the point of being nothing like what they've directly said that their stance is.
3) Do you understand what the association fallacy is and why it's a fallacy? Reductio ad Hitlerum, which you've been invoking, is a subset of that.
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Old 29th October 2016, 12:09 AM   #1397
SashatheMagnificent
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Empty complaints about how it's wrong to hold Hamas accountable for it's actions and policies, like every other government is being held accountable for theirs in the discussion by the people you're comparing to Hitler, including Israel, does not make a convincing reason to alter one's opinion.
Nothing makes a true believed (or believer)) a convincing reason

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Hamas' strong anti-Israel stance is the current biggest obstacle to peace there, by far.
It is not

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
It's hardly the only problem, certainly, but it overshadows the rest immensely.
It does not

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Why should any government treat another government that blatantly seeks to destroy them well?
Do not worry, Israel does not treat Hamas well
Nor the palestinians on the West Bank who did not pledge to destroy anyone

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If Hamas honestly changed that, then the discussion about what guilt should go where could become notably closer to evenly matched, certainly. As it stands, though, stupidly and emptily antagonizing one's dramatically stronger neighbors is not something worthy of praise or excuse.
Well, differently from the West Bank, at least Hamas can claim that in Gaza Isreal was not able to steal land

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
That's not to say that Israel's blockade of Gaza or many of the various other limitations that Israel's put in place regarding Gaza, for example, is or are "good" things at all, of course,
Of course

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
but rather that there is or probably is sufficient cause to make it a legitimate course of action, at least while Hamas is openly anti-Israel.
There is not

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If Hamas changes that or does something radical like letting the PLO, which has been accepted as the *only* legitimate representative for the Palestinian people by numerous countries and the UN, have control of Gaza, if Israel maintains things as they are, then Israel will likely quite deserve much, much more condemnation there.
So that Israel will be able to steal land in the West Bank AND Gaza?

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
If we want to discuss things like the blockade on Gaza, of course, Egypt's blockade of Gaza really can't be honestly avoided. Do you understand why Egypt actually blockaded Gaza?
Egypt is governed by a bloody dictator last time I checked

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Also, with regards to the US' doings with the blockade, are you aware that the US put pressure on Israel to ease the blockade, repeatedly?
Words are words

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As for your fantasizing about the strength and intelligence of the US, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey, what, exactly, would be relevant about that, even if it were true, which is very doubtful? This is before one even starts to compare the current relative strengths and things like, as was noted earlier in this thread, that the US' military spending outweighs the next several countries in line combined.
North Vietnam was able to kick US arse even with a military budget around 1/100 of that
Pakistan and soon Iran will be have nukes

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Generally true as that statement can be, it's worth pointing out that you could well be a fair portion of the problem there, given the irrationality and unreasonableness of a number of your statements.
Your opinion

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
And we can certainly disagree there, but that's hardly something to be surprised about given that we seem to have different considerations in play.
..

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Are those 1.6 billion Muslims all in Europe? Rather, the Muslims in danger would be, first and foremost, the roughly 44 million in Europe, especially the rather large number of them that are recent immigrants, immigrants that have apparently increased the crime rates quite notably, no less. Going past that, there would obviously be a whole lot less in whichever particular country the Hitleresque leader arose in that would be the first targets, with very little that the overwhelming majority of Muslims even could start to do about it. Incidentally, Europe's population is more like 740 million, not 300 million.
Ah you mean Europe in total, not just Western Europe
In this case, population is ~700 million, but I do not see any uprising against Muslims in European Turkey or Ukraine, for example
And there are still 1.6 billion muslims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Your attempt at posturing and denial is fairly pathetic, really, here.
..

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Yeah... your math here doesn't work, any more than your previous math did.
..


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ehh, Stalingrad was quite the defeat for Germany, yes, but it's rather difficult to claim that Stalin is why Israel and the Jews exist.
If Stalin did not defeat Hitler in Stalingrad there would have been no defeat of Nazi Germany

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Perhaps you could make your arguments without invoking fallacy after fallacy, before claiming that a group can't be educated? Bear in mind that repeating empty propaganda isn't particularly convincing?
Feel free to ignore me

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
A claimed failure to understand isn't particularly concerning, coming from one who's fairly certainly trolling anyways.
Call me troll once again adn it will be me ignoring you

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
With that said, on the off chance that you actually do need things dumbed down a bit, there are three things that you need to answer if you want your claim to not be treated as entirely worthless.

1) What, exactly, are you claiming are the similarities in the views of Ziggurat, trustbutverify, Mycroft, and myself with the views of Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Stalin and their supporters? You've yet to make this clear.
They support war crimes against Palestinians

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
2) On what do you base your claims about what the views of Ziggurat, trustbutverify, Mycroft, and myself are? So far, you've seemed to take immerse liberties with your claims about what a poster believes, frequently to the point of being nothing like what they've directly said that their stance is.
Your comments here

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
3) Do you understand what the association fallacy is and why it's a fallacy? Reductio ad Hitlerum, which you've been invoking, is a subset of that.
You know very little about fallacies
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Old 29th October 2016, 01:55 PM   #1398
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Nothing makes a true believed (or believer)) a convincing reason
Perhaps. Yet, you're not dealing with true believers here. Rather, you're simply dealing with people who don't accept empty assertion, fallacies, and libel as if it was profound truth.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
It is not
Make a real argument for that, instead of empty assertion, then? My position, for example, comes from applying the same standards to Hamas' and Israel's foreign policy as would be reasonable to apply to every other government.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
It does not
Make a real argument for that, instead of empty assertion, then? When a particular factor removes any real discussion from the table from the start, it counts as overshadowing the rest.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Do not worry, Israel does not treat Hamas well
Quite obviously. Rather, why are you trying to claim that they should?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Nor the palestinians on the West Bank who did not pledge to destroy anyone
Which is notably more of a problem, yes, much as your claim here seems to forget that Hamas is still one of the two major political parties over there, too, and Fatah isn't especially more friendly than Hamas towards Israel, either. That the West Bank isn't a separate state now is because, among other things, some that are Palestinian-based, some that are Israeli-based, that they don't want to leave Gaza behind, and the West Bank and Gaza are very much not united, politically.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Well, differently from the West Bank, at least Hamas can claim that in Gaza Isreal was not able to steal land
Hmm? Yet Hamas does effectively make the claim that their land is being stolen, even in Gaza. Israel did a quite condemnation-worthy thing with the wall they built, after all, at last check. Namely, they built the wall right at the border that they had set for what they granted to the Palestinians of Gaza and declared that the Palestinians were not allowed to come a certain distance, which included a notable amount of land on the Palestinian side of the border.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
There is not
Yet, it would be sufficient to ensure the legitimacy of the action for any other country. Do you have good reason for Israel and Gaza to be treated as special?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
So that Israel will be able to steal land in the West Bank AND Gaza?
An answer fit for a troll. Rather, the real effects would be more along the lines of 1) removing a significant portion of Israeli justification for many of the nastier ways that they've been lowering the quality of life of many Palestinians and 2) helping to make a two state solution much more viable in reality, which, if it became reality, would dramatically improve the Palestinians' position and ability to prevent Israel from "stealing land." When it comes to "stealing land," it's not like they have much trouble now, regardless.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Egypt is governed by a bloody dictator last time I checked
You have no idea, then, in other words? That's quite the hole in your understanding of the situation.

For example, though,

Quote:
Egypt maintained that it could not fully open its side of the border since completely opening the border would represent Egyptian recognition of the Hamas control of Gaza, undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian National Authority and consecrate the split between Gaza and the West Bank.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Words are words
Indeed. Is there supposed to be something profound there?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
North Vietnam was able to kick US arse even with a military budget around 1/100 of that
Pakistan and soon Iran will be have nukes
Indeed, it's possible to defeat the US' military moves, under certain conditions. That doesn't make it something to rely on. Iran, for example, had been under heavy economic sanctions for quite a long time, which have weakened it very significantly. Of course it's getting stronger each day, now that the economic sanctions were lifted with the US' involvement, despite much Israeli opposition. That doesn't mean that it's actually all that strong, even if it did gain nukes in violation of the treaty. All this is a distraction, though. Once more, of what real relevance do you think that the strength of US, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey is to either of the subjects that you raised them as a response to? Was it indeed just you hiding in a fantasy world where you being unable to make a rational and relevant response is solved by making empty threats that would be entirely misdirected anyways? After all, once again, I have no real vested interest in either Israel's existence or continued existence.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Your opinion
Repeatedly demonstrated fact.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Ah you mean Europe in total, not just Western Europe
In this case, population is ~700 million, but I do not see any uprising against Muslims in European Turkey or Ukraine, for example
And there are still 1.6 billion muslims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
Indeed, Turkey and Ukraine are unlikely to join in. Again, though, why, exactly, do you think that there being 1.6 billion muslims would matter especially much when it comes to whether a Hitleresque leader targeted a fairly small Muslim minority in their country, especially if it was just an expansion of the backlash against a quite large number of very badly behaving Muslim refugees that were allowed to immigrate there for humanitarian reasons?


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
If Stalin did not defeat Hitler in Stalingrad there would have been no defeat of Nazi Germany
While possible, it's very far from necessarily the case, especially given that the US did manage to make nukes not especially long after and Stalingrad was far from the last bastion of defense.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Feel free to ignore me
I do feel free to do so. And?

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Call me troll once again adn it will be me ignoring you
If you'd stop acting like exactly one, you wouldn't get called such. As it stands, I've limited suggestions of troll to places where it's clearly and firmly indicated.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
They support war crimes against Palestinians


Your comments here


You know very little about fallacies
And none of those answers give any reason to treat your claim as anything other than vacuous. Generally speaking, those you listed do not support war crimes, in general, whether it's regarding the Palestinians or others. That *you* want to call something a war crime doesn't actually make it a war crime, after all, and war crimes occurring wouldn't really have any real effect on things that are rather irrelevant to them, anyways. As for fallacies, well, your response to that is not a real refutation, at all.
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Last edited by Aridas; 29th October 2016 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 29th October 2016, 04:28 PM   #1399
webfusion
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Change of gears

OK, how about a change of gears, and a slight veer into the topic of BDS?
(the Boycott Divestment Sanctions "call to action" by Palestinian Civil Society groups)

Here are two examples that caught my eye in the past day or so.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...871587,00.html
1. American Express has declined to become involved as a sponsor of Roger Waters' upcoming tour due to his views on Israel.
"The company was asked to pay $4-million in expenses for the tour, but changed its mind because it did not want to be part of his anti-Israel discourse." -- Amex spokesperson

Now, Citibank has stepped in and picked up that bill.

I have returned my citibank credit card to them cut in pieces, with a note explaining why.

What's in MY wallet now? American Express!


and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...srael-protest/
2. In London, Palestinian 'activists' caused a student meeting to be cancelled due to their disruption. Police were called.

"From the River to the Sea -- Palestine will be Free" -- this chant clearly indicates their desire to see Israel destroyed. Nothing in that chant leaves room for living together with the Jews and building peaceful and prosperous regional alliances (with neighbors Israel, Jordan and Egypt).

Anyway, this type of thuggery on campuses is becoming more and more common.
And Jewish students are uncertain about their safety, with Palestinians becoming more and more brazen in their confrontations.

At some point, I believe, some Palestinian students will go from chants to physically attacking their fellow students.
Is this what the Palestinians are hoping will draw more support to their side?
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Old 29th October 2016, 04:36 PM   #1400
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Quote from the Magnificent --"If I were a Jew living in Israel I would keep my passport ready on the table just in case..."

As a Jew living in Israel, the LAST thing I would EVER do is abandon my country in times of war. I'd simply report to my base in uniform, and pick up a weapon.

And I would trust that ALL weapons in our arsenal would be deployed as needed.
(When I say "all" I mean "all")

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