Evangelicals and Trump - after the Washington riots

[dann]

Quote:

With the White House in the background, Pastor Paula White leads a prayer Wednesday, Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, at a rally in support of President Donald Trump called the "Save America Rally." (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin) AP
Trump supporters clash with police near White House as they protest election results (MarketWatch, Jan. 6, 2021)

I don't think Paula White is one of the White House staffers who have abandoned Trump after the attack on the Capitol Building, and she condemned the violence only after Trump had told people to go home (and that they were right about the election having been stolen): Paula White-Cain on Twitter

But what will the Evangelicals be doing politically now that Trump has lost all power? Will they stick to him after the riots? After he's out the White House?

An op-ed in WP hopes for this:

Quote:

The collapse of one disastrous form of Christian social engagement should be an opportunity for the emergence of a more faithful one. And here there are plenty of potent, hopeful Christian principles lying around unused by most evangelicals: A consistent and comprehensive concern for the weak and vulnerable in our society, including the poor, immigrants and refugees. A passion for racial reconciliation and criminal justice reform, rooted in the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity. A deep commitment to public and global health, reflecting the priorities of Christ’s healing ministry. An embrace of political civility as a civilizing norm. A commitment to the liberty of other people’s religions, not just our own. An insistence on public honesty and a belief in the transforming power of unarmed truth.
Trump’s evangelicals were complicit in the desecration of our democracy (WP, Jan. 7, 2021)

But that doesn't really seem to be of this world ...

[GDon]

Originally Posted by dann

But what will the Evangelicals be doing politically now that Trump has lost all power? Will they stick to him after the riots? After he's out the White House?

Is there anything to stick to once Trump is out of the White House? They'll wait for the next person who promises them things to come along.

If anything, it's shown that there is still such a thing as 'the Evangelical vote'. Trump was a popularist thug, but an incompetent one. Prepare for someone worse than Trump -- a popularist competent thug -- to exploit the Evangelical vote to come along.

[Skeptic Ginger]

One thing is for sure, expect rationalizations that this was God's plan, they just aren't clear yet what the goal is.

[Trebuchet]

Off to Right Wing Watch now, will report back....

ETA1: Michele Bachmann.

ETA2, from the night before.

[dejudge]

Originally Posted by GDon

Is there anything to stick to once Trump is out of the White House? They'll wait for the next person who promises them things to come along.

If anything, it's shown that there is still such a thing as 'the Evangelical vote'. Trump was a popularist thug, but an incompetent one. Prepare for someone worse than Trump -- a popularist competent thug -- to exploit the Evangelical vote to come along.

The majority of people who voted for the incompetent one were not Evangelicals.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Off to Right Wing Watch now, will report back....

ETA1: Michele Bachmann.

ETA2, from the night before.

Most of those aren't Evangelicals, but ...

Quote:

California pastor Ché Ahn, a leader of the dominionist New Apostolic Reformation, called this week the most important in U.S. history. “I believe that this week we’re going to throw Jezebel out and Jehu’s gonna rise up, and we’re gonna rule and reign through President Trump and under the lordship of Jesus Christ.” (In the Bible, Jehu overthrew the wicked queen Jezebel and slaughtered her family; Pentecostal Christians often refer to the “Jezebel spirit” as a demonic influence in the world.) Ahn said the election was “stolen” from Trump in “the most egregious fraud” in U.S. history. He predicted that Trump would be president for four more years and the U.S. would become a “red” nation “in perpetuity.”

However, the question is what they'll be doing after Trump.
1) What will they do merely for opportunistic reasons?
2) What will be the Biblical interpretation of what they do? Why didn't the Trump-as-a-modern-day-Cyrus interpretation work out the way it was supposed to?

[turingtest]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Off to Right Wing Watch now, will report back....

ETA1: Michele Bachmann.

ETA2, from the night before.

I guess none of those folks got the "heal the divide" memo the GOP is so anxiously passing around as its face (ntm ass)-saving policy going forward. But of course, even if they knew of it, they wouldn't pay any attention, self-righteousness is too potent a high- remember what Barry Goldwater said?

Quote:

Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

[Resume]

There is a photo of a person standing on the gallows platform erected at the Capitol Sunday wearing a sweatshirt that read:

Faith
Family
Freedom.

Family values, I guess.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by dejudge

The majority of people who voted for the incompetent one were not Evangelicals.

Maybe.
But I guarantee most evangelicals voted for Trump.

[dejudge]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Maybe.
But I guarantee most evangelicals voted for Trump.

I can guarantee that most white people voted for Trump.

[RolandRat]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Off to Right Wing Watch now, will report back....

ETA1: Michele Bachmann.

ETA2, from the night before.

This stuff actually seems to be turning off some people on the right, especially the far right. Some comments I've seen are from people happy to own what happened on that day and they're disgusted at the Antifa rhetoric that's being pushed.

How widespread that opinion is /shrug but I find it interesting to see how the "event" is being used.

[Crossbow]

It sure is amazing just how incredibly stupid religious people can be.

After all, these idiots knew right from the start just Trump is just a worthless POS who is using them to get his own way, and yet these people supported that worthless POS Trump all the same.

And now that the Capitol building was attacked, a few people killed, hundreds have been hurt, and millions of dollars in damage incurred, now the religious types are re-evaluating their support of that POS Trump.

[Butter!]

Originally Posted by dann

But what will the Evangelicals be doing politically now that Trump has lost all power? Will they stick to him after the riots? After he's out the White House?

This victory lap may be premature. He hasn't lost all power yet, and he and his deranged attack dogs can still do a great deal of damage. I half-believe we're going to be living in the Handmaid's Tale come the 17th-20th.

That being said, assuming you're correct that it's over (really hope you are!), I imagine the evangelicals will go back to the same para-political bull **** they always do. Harassing young girls outside abortion clinics, for example.

Honestly, we've basically got a theocratic majority on the Supreme Court at this point, though, so I'm pretty worried.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by Resume

There is a photo of a person standing on the gallows platform erected at the Capitol Sunday wearing a sweatshirt that read:

Faith
Family
Freedom.

Family values, I guess.

Christian values.

Since when have evangelicals had a problem with murder when it suited them?

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Christian values.

Since when have evangelicals had a problem with murder when it suited them?

Not for about 2000 years.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Not for about 2000 years.

Evangelicals - as a movement - did not exist until around the 1730s. Prior to that but still a lot less than 2000 years ago there were inquisitions and crusades, which had zero qualms about murdering people whom they thought didn't fit with their ideology. But they were (mostly) Catholics, not evangelicals.

Sorry, minor nitpick. Carry on.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Butter!

This victory lap may be premature. He hasn't lost all power yet, and he and his deranged attack dogs can still do a great deal of damage. I half-believe we're going to be living in the Handmaid's Tale come the 17th-20th.

That being said, assuming you're correct that it's over (really hope you are!), I imagine the evangelicals will go back to the same para-political bull **** they always do. Harassing young girls outside abortion clinics, for example.

Honestly, we've basically got a theocratic majority on the Supreme Court at this point, though, so I'm pretty worried.

I don't know. The Supreme Court has surprised people in the past.

Also as one story points out liberal lawyers will try to bring only strong cases before the federal courts and the conservatives have so far gone with weak ones. Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt case in point. Also the conservative have been sloppy with their paperwork to the point the court had no choice but to throw the thing out (Department of Homeland Security v. Regents of the University of California,)

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Resume

There is a photo of a person standing on the gallows platform erected at the Capitol Sunday wearing a sweatshirt that read:

Faith
Family
Freedom.

Family values, I guess.

Corleone and Soprano family values.

[Lupus]

Quote:

The collapse of one disastrous form of Christian social engagement should be an opportunity for the emergence of a more faithful one. And here there are plenty of potent, hopeful Christian principles lying around unused by most evangelicals: A consistent and comprehensive concern for the weak and vulnerable in our society, including the poor, immigrants and refugees. A passion for racial reconciliation and criminal justice reform, rooted in the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity. A deep commitment to public and global health, reflecting the priorities of Christ’s healing ministry. An embrace of political civility as a civilizing norm. A commitment to the liberty of other people’s religions, not just our own. An insistence on public honesty and a belief in the transforming power of unarmed truth.

That's betamale Christianity. None of those things are said in the bible. It goes full on window-licker mode with saying "racial reconciliation" and "deep commitment to the liberty of other people's religions" are Christian beliefs.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Resume

There is a photo of a person standing on the gallows platform erected at the Capitol Sunday wearing a sweatshirt that read:

Faith
Family
Freedom.

Family values, I guess.

The sweatshirt was very obvious, but there were religious symbols that I was not aware of when I saw them. Shofars, for instance: About the Election Jericho March (Holy Koolaid on Youtube - not a video, Jan. 25, 2021)
However, the media focus has been on QAnon fans and right-wing extremists after the riots.

So far, I haven't seen any Evangelicals argue for a repeat performance of the insurrection, but I also don't see many argue for giving up on Trump.

[JoeMorgue]

//Very minor nitpick, but I'll put context in for why I think it is important.//

Not "Evangelicals" exactly. That's worldwide concept that goes back to the 1700s.

"The Religious Right" a distinct and very hard to explain to anyone outside the country American phenomenon. A loose grouping of various, mostly fundamentalist and evangelical, religious groups and organizations that are unified under a common enemy, that of a vaguely defined evil "secularism" that will destroy the US if it gains a foothold.

As has been noticed before by other people religious factions didn't get along enough to be a single demographic until abortion gave them all a handy boogeymen to all "Avengers Assemble" to counter.

[Hlafordlaes]

Originally Posted by Lupus

That's betamale Christianity. None of those things are said in the bible. It goes full on window-licker mode with saying "racial reconciliation" and "deep commitment to the liberty of other people's religions" are Christian beliefs.

If something must be said in the bible for it to be actionable, working out how one should act on the basis of Christian principles becomes impossible. Cell phone etiquette? A non-starter, for example. If it's not in the script, physical and mental immobility must result from any circumstance not providing a perfect word for word match... with the orginal Aramaic or Hebrew, as the case may be. If you're going literal, half-way don't cut it. The parable of the workers in the vineyard... why'd Jesus bother? Hardly anyone works in a vineyard. Silly Jew, sheesh.


BTW, what's alpha male Christianity? Pushy humility? Sounds like a recipe for infinite oxymorons.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

//Very minor nitpick, but I'll put context in for why I think it is important.//

Not "Evangelicals" exactly. That's worldwide concept that goes back to the 1700s.

"The Religious Right" a distinct and very hard to explain to anyone outside the country American phenomenon. A loose grouping of various, mostly fundamentalist and evangelical, religious groups and organizations that are unified under a common enemy, that of a vaguely defined evil "secularism" that will destroy the US if it gains a foothold.

As has been noticed before by other people religious factions didn't get along enough to be a single demographic until abortion gave them all a handy boogeymen to all "Avengers Assemble" to counter.

Except that they never cared about abortion, it was when they had to let those blacks into their schools or lose tax exempt status that they became politically active. You are mistaking them for Catholics as it was Catholics not evangelicals and fundamentalists who viewed abortion as an issue. They just needed to switch to a more broadly palatable issue than keeping their kids free from contamination by blacks.

But hey just continue spouting propaganda for them, why not try the civil war was really about states rights next.

For more on this issue and why it was never about abortion but race mixing see

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

BTW, what's alpha male Christianity? Pushy humility? Sounds like a recipe for infinite oxymorons.

Christianity with out all that socialist cuck crap that "Jesus" was spouting, no on trusts a Mexican like that to hold real Christian values.

[Spektator]

The influence of the Bible is truly astounding on the lives of those Christians who have never read it.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Spektator

The influence of the Bible is truly astounding on the lives of those Christians who have never read it.

Obviously because as Mark Twain said: “The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible.”
―

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Spektator

The influence of the Bible is truly astounding on the lives of those Christians who have never read it.

I'd suggest that if you claim to be a Christian and have never read the Bible, then at best you are merely giving lip service to being one.

[Trebuchet]

Evangelicals DO read the Bible. Over and over. With heavy underlining. Understanding is a different matter, because it's open to any interpretation you wish to come up with.

[Hellbound]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Evangelicals DO read the Bible. Over and over. With heavy underlining. Understanding is a different matter, because it's open to any interpretation you wish to come up with.

It’s not as common as you think.

Most read parts of the Bible, but it’s rare to find many that have read the whole thing (at least among the general congregation). Pastors/ministers usually have read all of it, but even there it’s not always a guarantee.

This is from experience; my Dad was a minister for a fundamentalist church for quite some time. The final straw of my conversion to atheism was the year-long Bible Survey course I had to take at college (Cain school first year); was the first time I’d read the whole thing, including the bits few talk about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Minoosh]

Every once in a while I stumble on a blog post/comment thread where people are earnestly discussing Christian doctrine. It's an eye-opener. People adapt their beliefs to fit their personal preference. If you're a big believer in end times and Armageddon, why wouldn't you want someone like Trump in office? If you've worked you way around to believing he is fulfilling biblical prophecy, that excuses a multitude of sins - it is all God's plan.

There's a Christian left too, pretty sizable, can't say how much political power they've got.

I don't understand people who jettison the Old Testament as an obsolete rulebook when it suits their purposes, then use it as a cudgel to beat people with.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Every once in a while I stumble on a blog post/comment thread where people are earnestly discussing Christian doctrine. It's an eye-opener. People adapt their beliefs to fit their personal preference. If you're a big believer in end times and Armageddon, why wouldn't you want someone like Trump in office? If you've worked you way around to believing he is fulfilling biblical prophecy, that excuses a multitude of sins - it is all God's plan.

There's a Christian left too, pretty sizable, can't say how much political power they've got.

I don't understand people who jettison the Old Testament as an obsolete rulebook when it suits their purposes, then use it as a cudgel to beat people with.

Orwell's concept of Doublethink didn't come out of nowhere, it has been a stable of Christianity for a long time.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

There's a Christian left too, pretty sizable, can't say how much political power they've got.

The Christian Left got a LOT of attention around 50 years ago, when they were very active in civil rights and protesting Viet Nam. People didn't approve of it. mostly the same sort of people who are in the religious right now.

[Minoosh]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

The Christian Left got a LOT of attention around 50 years ago, when they were very active in civil rights and protesting Viet Nam. People didn't approve of it. mostly the same sort of people who are in the religious right now.

I don't know. I'm exposed to a lot of Congregationalist culture (United Church of Christ) and they seem pretty left to me. There's at least a small wing of the Catholic Church who are basically communist in outlook (using communist in a neutral way, if that makes sense), and there are also anti-death penalty Catholics (who at the same time may be anti-abortion). Other Catholics are often immigrant-rights activists. There's a denomination that just goes by "Christian" as in "First Christian Church" (Disciples of Christ) and it used to be liberal. I don't know if the same people go on to become what you'd call conservative Christians - they seem like different personality types to me. I grew up in the Church of Christ, very conservative but not what I'd call evangelical. Oh, and also leftish, Episcopalians. So, lots of liberal Christians.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I don't know. I'm exposed to a lot of Congregationalist culture (United Church of Christ) and they seem pretty left to me. There's at least a small wing of the Catholic Church who are basically communist in outlook (using communist in a neutral way, if that makes sense), and there are also anti-death penalty Catholics (who at the same time may be anti-abortion). Other Catholics are often immigrant-rights activists. There's a denomination that just goes by "Christian" as in "First Christian Church" (Disciples of Christ) and it used to be liberal. I don't know if the same people go on to become what you'd call conservative Christians - they seem like different personality types to me. I grew up in the Church of Christ, very conservative but not what I'd call evangelical. Oh, and also leftish, Episcopalians. So, lots of liberal Christians.

Yes, I was also Congregationalist. I didn't mean they'd gone away but they seem much less visible now.

[Carrot Flower King]

There is an old line about the Labour Party over here which had that the party was more Methodist than Marxist, which, being brought up in County Durham pit village Methodism and knowing its links to the early days of what became the National Union of Mineworkers, made a whole heap of sense to me.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Yes, I was also Congregationalist. I didn't mean they'd gone away but they seem much less visible now.

Leftist positions are not as frequently framed in a specifically religious framework.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Hellbound

It’s not as common as you think.

Most read parts of the Bible, but it’s rare to find many that have read the whole thing (at least among the general congregation). Pastors/ministers usually have read all of it, but even there it’s not always a guarantee.

This is from experience; my Dad was a minister for a fundamentalist church for quite some time. The final straw of my conversion to atheism was the year-long Bible Survey course I had to take at college (Cain school first year); was the first time I’d read the whole thing, including the bits few talk about.

I was certainly encouraged to read the whole thing, and many of the church people I spoke to at the time said that they had read the whole thing. I, like they, annotated my bible with different coloured highlighter pens. Which I suppose is an example of cherry-picking only the best bits.

[Hellbound]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I was certainly encouraged to read the whole thing, and many of the church people I spoke to at the time said that they had read the whole thing. I, like they, annotated my bible with different coloured highlighter pens. Which I suppose is an example of cherry-picking only the best bits.

There was a lot of lip service about it, but in my experience reading the whole thing was mostly slogging through without comprehension., when it was done, and mostly the older members. And of course, there’s the pressure to say you’ve read it all whether you have or not .

But then again, my experience was one denomination: there are literally thousands, so it may vary from creed to creed. I reserve the right to be wrong . But on the gripping hand, as you said, most remember the bits that fit with their beliefs, and ignore the rest. And there’s usually little examination or study beyond rote reading (such as comparing the differences between the multiple creation accounts, for example).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dann]

At least some Evangelicals seem to be turning away from politics - and maybe from the Republicans:

Quote:

But if the Trump era taught us anything, those beliefs do not have unidirectional political implications among sincere believers. And some issues – like an effective response to COVID – should never have become partisan issues at all. Sometimes what we need is just good governance!

We should no longer expect our beliefs to sync up perfectly with a temporal political party. If they do, we are likely being discipled by party politics and partisan media more than the counsel of Scripture. As dismaying as a Biden/Harris administration may be to some white brothers and sisters, I actually think it may represent a healthy “wilderness time” for many evangelicals. We might remember more clearly now that our hope is not in American politics. It never has been.
Evangelicals in a Post-Trump World (TheGospelCoalition, Jan. 21, 2021)

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I was certainly encouraged to read the whole thing, and many of the church people I spoke to at the time said that they had read the whole thing. I, like they, annotated my bible with different coloured highlighter pens. Which I suppose is an example of cherry-picking only the best bits.

The idea of writing in and highlighting mine makes me shudder in horror.