Is the Roman Catholic Church in Freefall? - Page 2

rjh01 · 2nd July 2017, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Well, it's still the largest religious denomination in Australia, so I'm going to say no, it's probably not in freefall.

Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population.

2016 - 22.6%
2011 - 25.3%
2006 - 25.8%
2001 - 26.6%
1996 - 27.0%
Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic.

As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option.

Ref:
http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument

Orphia Nay · 2nd July 2017, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well according to the census results "No Religion" is the largest group now.

Originally Posted by rjh01

Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population.

2016 - 22.6%
2011 - 25.3%
2006 - 25.8%
2001 - 26.6%
1996 - 27.0%
Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic.

As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option.

Ref:
http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument

30% say No Religion (which is still way more than 2% more than Catholicism), and the Catholic Church's antics had a bit to do with that I'd bet.

rjh01 · 2nd July 2017, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

30% say No Religion (which is still way more than 2% more than Catholicism), and the Catholic Church's antics had a bit to do with that I'd bet.

Let us have a look at no religion

2016 - 29.6%
2011 - 21.8%
2006 - 18.7%
2001 - 15.5%
1996 - 16.5% (This seems high. Maybe it should be about 14.2% to fit in the trend line)
1991 - 12.9%
1981 - 10.8%

It is increasing, but I suggest that some of the latest increase is due to the fact that the no religion option is first not last. Plus a campaign for people to put no religion as their answer. The reference below suggests that this trend started in 1971 and has not stopped since.

Ref: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....age/2101.01991 then download the pdf of Census of Population and Housing, Australia in Profile
Gives lots of interesting information about Australia up to 1991.

rjh01 · 2nd July 2017, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population.

2016 - 22.6%
2011 - 25.3%
2006 - 25.8%
2001 - 26.6%
1996 - 27.0%
1991 - 27.3%
1981 - 26.0%
Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic.

As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option.

Ref:
http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument

http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument

I have updated the above with information from the link in my previous post. Looks like Catholics were increasing as a % of the population until 1991 when they started to decrease again. See also figure 2.2 in the pdf which goes back to 1933.

arthwollipot · 2nd July 2017, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well according to the census results "No Religion" is the largest group now.

Not the point. Catholics are still the largest religious denomination.

Originally Posted by rjh01

Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population.

2016 - 22.6%
2011 - 25.3%
2006 - 25.8%
2001 - 26.6%
1996 - 27.0%
Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic.

Looks like a modest steady fall to me, rather than a "freefall".

Let's see what happens with Pell - that may change things.

Craig4 · 2nd July 2017, 07:17 AM

The decline should get bigger and accelerate as the church going population ages and fewer young people take up church going.

Thor 2 · 2nd July 2017, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

.........

Who knows? There are probably many and varied reasons why Australians have been reluctant to enter the priesthood. Celibacy is just one of them.

Well you made the statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by psionl0
AFAIK finding men who were willing to take a vow of celibacy was always a problem in Australia and the priesthood was largely imported as a result. In days gone by, I believe that Ireland was a major source or RCC priests but you will more likely see them originating from Africa or Asia today.

I admit that any attendance figures I have today are mostly anecdotal.

You can't just duck out now.

Thor 2 · 2nd July 2017, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

The decline should get bigger and accelerate as the church going population ages and fewer young people take up church going.

I don't think we can underestimate the impact of black guys in the pulpit either.

psionl0 · 2nd July 2017, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well you made the statement:

You can't just duck out now.

If your inference is that the only reason why Australian men would duck the priesthood is because of the celibacy requirement then I am not required to further engage in your fantasy.

Thor 2 · 2nd July 2017, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If your inference is that the only reason why Australian men would duck the priesthood is because of the celibacy requirement then I am not required to further engage in your fantasy.

I made no inference at all you made it. The dishonesty displayed here is beyond belief.

Orphia Nay · 3rd July 2017, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Let us have a look at no religion

2016 - 29.6%
2011 - 21.8%
2006 - 18.7%
2001 - 15.5%
1996 - 16.5% (This seems high. Maybe it should be about 14.2% to fit in the trend line)
1991 - 12.9%
1981 - 10.8%

It is increasing, but I suggest that some of the latest increase is due to the fact that the no religion option is first not last. Plus a campaign for people to put no religion as their answer. The reference below suggests that this trend started in 1971 and has not stopped since.

Ref: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....age/2101.01991 then download the pdf of Census of Population and Housing, Australia in Profile
Gives lots of interesting information about Australia up to 1991.

Long may the trend continue! We've had enough bias on the religion question in the past. This makes it unbiased.

Thor 2 · 3rd July 2017, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Long may the trend continue! We've had enough bias on the religion question in the past. This makes it unbiased.

The trend is encouraging and what is needed in our societies, is a drop in the disproportionate influence the religious have in government and law making.

Chanakya · 4th July 2017, 06:31 AM

This Pell character : Why was it, seemingly, left to his discretion, and to the discretion of his boss, that he should face these charges? Why was he not simply hauled by his funny collar and dragged back in handcuffs, to be tried like any other ordinary criminal for the crimes he was accused of?

Is it that the law itself has special provisions for this sort of thing? Perhaps a provision that Church rules, as opposed to regular law, will apply when the offender a priest or clergyman (unless the Church waives off its special status, something like that)?

Does this apply only to pedophiles? If Pell had been accused of robbing a bank, or of peddling drugs, historically or otherwise, would he then still have had this same apparent discretion of “deciding", at his pleasure, and at the Pope’s pleasure, to return and face charges, rather than being dragged back irrespective of what he or his boss felt about it?

The Big Dog · 4th July 2017, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

This Pell character : Why was it, seemingly, left to his discretion, and to the discretion of his boss, that he should face these charges? Why was he not simply hauled by his funny collar and dragged back in handcuffs, to be tried like any other ordinary criminal for the crimes he was accused of?

Is it that the law itself has special provisions for this sort of thing? Perhaps a provision that Church rules, as opposed to regular law, will apply when the offender a priest or clergyman (unless the Church waives off its special status, something like that)?

Does this apply only to pedophiles? If Pell had been accused of robbing a bank, or of peddling drugs, historically or otherwise, would he then still have had this same apparent discretion of “deciding", at his pleasure, and at the Pope’s pleasure, to return and face charges, rather than being dragged back irrespective of what he or his boss felt about it?

did you read the linked article and the attached sidebar?

Chanakya · 4th July 2017, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

did you read the linked article and the attached sidebar?

No actually.

Do you know how this works, whether these guys have separate provisions in law made for them, or is it that they're considered citizens of the Vatican, or what? They do seem to enjoy more latitude than you garden variety criminal.

The Big Dog · 4th July 2017, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

No actually.

Do you know how this works, whether these guys have separate provisions in law made for them, or is it that they're considered citizens of the Vatican, or what? They do seem to enjoy more latitude than you garden variety criminal.

the explanation is in the attached article. In sum, Pell was in another sovereign country and basically waived extradition back to Australia, so not out of the realm of the ordinary at all.

Chanakya · 4th July 2017, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

the explanation is in the attached article. In sum, Pell was in another sovereign country and basically waived extradition back to Australia, so not out of the realm of the ordinary at all.

So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks

Craig4 · 4th July 2017, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks

In fairness, we don't know what would have happened if the Australian Government made a formal extradition request and or issued a Red Notice.

The Big Dog · 4th July 2017, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

In fairness, we don't know what would have happened if the Australian Government made a formal extradition request and or issued a Red Notice.

in fairness?

Thor 2 · 4th July 2017, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks

Yes that is correct. The Vatican is a separate state that has no extradition treaty with Australia so the Pope could have dug his heels in and protected Pell within the walls of the city. There has been much speculation in the Australian press about this for months now.

The Vatican has given protection to some in the past, but the fallout has been extremely damaging, so one must wonder what the conversation between the pope and Pell was really like.

From the article posted in the OP:

Quote:

In a press conference from the Vatican, Pell said he had spoken to Pope Francis about the case and had been granted leave.

"I've kept Pope Francis, the Holy Father, regularly informed during these long months," he said.

"I have spoken to him on a number of occasions in the last week. We talked about my need to take leave to clear my name.

Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that exchange took place. I suspect Francis had Pell in an arm lock, and told him to piss off and not let the door hit him on the arse on the way out.

Chanakya · 5th July 2017, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

in fairness?

“In fairness”, perhaps, to my original line of thought, that child molesters who’re priests might end up getting greater latitude than your regular non-priestly child molesters?

Chanakya · 5th July 2017, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes that is correct. The Vatican is a separate state that has no extradition treaty with Australia so the Pope could have dug his heels in and protected Pell within the walls of the city. There has been much speculation in the Australian press about this for months now.

The Vatican has given protection to some in the past, but the fallout has been extremely damaging, so one must wonder what the conversation between the pope and Pell was really like.

From the article posted in the OP:

Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that exchange took place. I suspect Francis had Pell in an arm lock, and told him to piss off and not let the door hit him on the arse on the way out.

Total comic-book scenario, isn’t it? The arch-villain, all dressed up in a weird dress, lording it over in his toy country, offering refuge to all kinds of scum, and wheeling-dealing away all around the globe. While brainwashed ~~zombies~~ followers kneel and genuflect all around him.

Simply begging for septugenarian “expendable” mercenaries to go pay him a visit! (Strictly within the pages of the comic book!)

Thor 2 · 5th July 2017, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Total comic-book scenario, isn’t it? The arch-villain, all dressed up in a weird dress, lording it over in his toy country, offering refuge to all kinds of scum, and wheeling-dealing away all around the globe. While brainwashed ~~zombies~~ followers kneel and genuflect all around him.

Simply begging for septugenarian “expendable” mercenaries to go pay him a visit! (Strictly within the pages of the comic book!)

An amusing idea Chanakya.

Getting back to Pell however. If some here are not familiar with recent history, he was summoned to appear before the royal commission in Australia some months ago, but ducked that by claiming ill health prevented him from long distance flights. I wouldn't mind betting he has a trick or two more like this up his sleeve.

abaddon · 5th July 2017, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

An amusing idea Chanakya.

Getting back to Pell however. If some here are not familiar with recent history, he was summoned to appear before the royal commission in Australia some months ago, but ducked that by claiming ill health prevented him from long distance flights. I wouldn't mind betting he has a trick or two more like this up his sleeve.

Pell is not the first to seek asylum in the Vatican.

Thor 2 · 5th July 2017, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Pell is not the first to seek asylum in the Vatican.

No indeed as I have made mention of myself a few times. A virtual den of thieves no less.

Oystein · 5th July 2017, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by The Big Dog

Betteridge's law of headlines

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.

As with similar "laws" (e.g., Murphy's law), it is intended as a humorous adage rather than the literal truth.

While Murphy exploits confimation bias acting on random results, Betteridge's law certainly holds true at rates better than random: Often, the reason why a headline is posed as a yes/no question is because the author is not certain the answer is "yes" and wishes to avoid the risk of being caught making a false assertion, or they even know the answer is no, the headline is merely a PR device, and a vehicle to pass a lie without literally being a lie.

Anyway, it hold true in the current case, too: No, the RCC is not in "freefall".
If it is declining at all (certainly is in Europe and some other developed; on the rise in Africa, LA?), it would be better described as "decay" or "corrosion".

Craig4 · 8th July 2017, 06:58 AM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-vat...ancis-backyard

If it was in free fall would senior Vatican officials be holding such wild parties?

acbytesla · 8th July 2017, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

While Murphy exploits confimation bias acting on random results, Betteridge's law certainly holds true at rates better than random: Often, the reason why a headline is posed as a yes/no question is because the author is not certain the answer is "yes" and wishes to avoid the risk of being caught making a false assertion, or they even know the answer is no, the headline is merely a PR device, and a vehicle to pass a lie without literally being a lie.

Anyway, it hold true in the current case, too: No, the RCC is not in "freefall".
If it is declining at all (certainly is in Europe and some other developed; on the rise in Africa, LA?), it would be better described as "decay" or "corrosion".

All religions are in decline in the West with some declining faster than others. The RCC is definitely declining faster than most others. As for poorer nations. They are more susceptible to superstitions and religion. There is direct inverse corollary between the wealth and education levels of a country and it's religiosity.

rjh01 · 8th July 2017, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

All religions are in decline in the West with some declining faster than others. The RCC is definitely declining faster than most others. As for poorer nations. They are more susceptible to superstitions and religion. There is direct inverse corollary between the wealth and education levels of a country and it's religiosity.

I agree with you there with one qualification. USA must be either uneducated or poor as it is a religious nation compared with the UK and Australia and many other similar countries.

I think the answer is that something else is making USA more religious than other countries. I am not sure what. Maybe lack of security?

acbytesla · 8th July 2017, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

I agree with you there with one qualification. USA must be either uneducated or poor as it is a religious nation compared with the UK and Australia and many other similar countries.

I think the answer is that something else is making USA more religious than other countries. I am not sure what. Maybe lack of security?

I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg

Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon.

What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents.

Thor 2 · 8th July 2017, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-vat...ancis-backyard

If it was in free fall would senior Vatican officials be holding such wild parties?

An amusing story thanks.

Just a return to the good old days perhaps when The Vatican was like a whore house. I read of this in a book called "Sex In History" by Gordon Rattray Taylor some years ago.

Francis has a lot on his plate these days and must have some doubts about the wisdom of taking on the job. The article mentions the Pell thing also.

rjh01 · 8th July 2017, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg

Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon.

What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents.

You could say that for Australia. Yet the biggest single religion is "no religion" in Australia. One factor that might have held it up is the Vietnam war. While Australia sent troops, USA poured just about everything they had into it. Yet lost. People had to have faith in something. They were suffering too much from the war. They could not have faith in their country. So they kept to their religion. That is my view.

alfaniner · 8th July 2017, 03:40 PM

Vatican outlaws gluten-free bread for Holy Communion

Well, now. This will just be the final straw. Not due to the fact that Catholics will insist on gluten-free hosts, but their realization that "I'm supposed to believe what?" (transubstantiation)

Thor 2 · 8th July 2017, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well.

https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg

Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon.

What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents.

Just watched it and David Voas presents a good case arguing that religion will not stage a comeback in the West.

One reason for the USA phenomena may be there are large numbers of poorly educated within its shores, and when we look at religiosity versus education level within the USA the trend is obvious.

Thor 2 · 8th July 2017, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Vatican outlaws gluten-free bread for Holy Communion

Well, now. This will just be the final straw. Not due to the fact that Catholics will insist on gluten-free hosts, but their realization that "I'm supposed to believe what?" (transubstantiation)

They probably got some of their best minds on the subject, and figured the gluten is needed in the chemical composition, to make good Jesus flesh. Those with intolerance of gluten need not worry, because if the priest does the consecration right there would be none left in its original form.

arthwollipot · 8th July 2017, 04:11 PM

I think there are a lot of factors that contribute to America's religiosity compared with other countries. It was Americans (deriving their theologies from people like Quimby and Kenyon) who first turned the idea that wealth equals morality into a doctrine. Combine that with plutocratic systems of election funding and you essentially get to a place where religion equals wealth equals power.

Of course, it's more complicated than just this - like I said, there are probably many factors that contribute to it.

Thor 2 · 8th July 2017, 04:20 PM

Hot off the press! Pell has been spotted in Singapore and on his way to Australia it is assumed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-0...tralia/8690992

Trebuchet · 8th July 2017, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-vat...ancis-backyard

If it was in free fall would senior Vatican officials be holding such wild parties?

Diddling while Rome falls.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Hot off the press! Pell has been spotted in Singapore and on his way to Australia it is assumed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-0...tralia/8690992

Doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get home, does he?

acbytesla · 8th July 2017, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Diddling while Rome falls.

Doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get home, does he?

Maybe he's thinking about making a stop in Bangkok.

Thor 2 · 8th July 2017, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Diddling while Rome falls.

Doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get home, does he?

Interesting he didn't try that stunt about not being able to fly because of his ill health like he did last time. Maybe Francis told him to stop that crap and get out of here.

2nd July 2017, 12:26 AM	#41
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,519	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Well, it's still the largest religious denomination in Australia, so I'm going to say no, it's probably not in freefall. Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population. 2016 - 22.6% 2011 - 25.3% 2006 - 25.8% 2001 - 26.6% 1996 - 27.0% Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic. As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option. Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument
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2nd July 2017, 01:55 AM	#42
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 38,745	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well according to the census results "No Religion" is the largest group now. Originally Posted by rjh01 Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population. 2016 - 22.6% 2011 - 25.3% 2006 - 25.8% 2001 - 26.6% 1996 - 27.0% Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic. As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option. Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument 30% say No Religion (which is still way more than 2% more than Catholicism), and the Catholic Church's antics had a bit to do with that I'd bet.
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2nd July 2017, 04:48 AM	#43
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,519	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay 30% say No Religion (which is still way more than 2% more than Catholicism), and the Catholic Church's antics had a bit to do with that I'd bet. Let us have a look at no religion 2016 - 29.6% 2011 - 21.8% 2006 - 18.7% 2001 - 15.5% 1996 - 16.5% (This seems high. Maybe it should be about 14.2% to fit in the trend line) 1991 - 12.9% 1981 - 10.8% It is increasing, but I suggest that some of the latest increase is due to the fact that the no religion option is first not last. Plus a campaign for people to put no religion as their answer. The reference below suggests that this trend started in 1971 and has not stopped since. Ref: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....age/2101.01991 then download the pdf of Census of Population and Housing, Australia in Profile Gives lots of interesting information about Australia up to 1991.
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2nd July 2017, 04:56 AM	#44
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,519	Originally Posted by rjh01 Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population. 2016 - 22.6% 2011 - 25.3% 2006 - 25.8% 2001 - 26.6% 1996 - 27.0% 1991 - 27.3% 1981 - 26.0% Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic. As a side issue it looks like 2% of the population said no religion rather than catholic because no religion was the first option. Ref: http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...0?opendocument http://www.censusdata.abs.gov.au/cen...6?opendocument I have updated the above with information from the link in my previous post. Looks like Catholics were increasing as a % of the population until 1991 when they started to decrease again. See also figure 2.2 in the pdf which goes back to 1933.
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2nd July 2017, 05:31 AM	#45
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,273	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well according to the census results "No Religion" is the largest group now. Not the point. Catholics are still the largest religious denomination. Originally Posted by rjh01 Maybe not in freefall, but decreasing as a % of the population. 2016 - 22.6% 2011 - 25.3% 2006 - 25.8% 2001 - 26.6% 1996 - 27.0% Another 226 years (at 0.5% decrease per 5 years) and hardly anyone (read approximately no-one) will say they are catholic. Looks like a modest steady fall to me, rather than a "freefall". Let's see what happens with Pell - that may change things.
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2nd July 2017, 07:17 AM	#46
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,586	The decline should get bigger and accelerate as the church going population ages and fewer young people take up church going.

2nd July 2017, 02:40 PM	#47
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by psionl0 ......... Who knows? There are probably many and varied reasons why Australians have been reluctant to enter the priesthood. Celibacy is just one of them. Well you made the statement: Quote: Originally Posted by psionl0 AFAIK finding men who were willing to take a vow of celibacy was always a problem in Australia and the priesthood was largely imported as a result. In days gone by, I believe that Ireland was a major source or RCC priests but you will more likely see them originating from Africa or Asia today. I admit that any attendance figures I have today are mostly anecdotal. You can't just duck out now.
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2nd July 2017, 02:42 PM	#48
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by Craig4 The decline should get bigger and accelerate as the church going population ages and fewer young people take up church going. I don't think we can underestimate the impact of black guys in the pulpit either.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

2nd July 2017, 09:53 PM	#49
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,009	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Well you made the statement: You can't just duck out now. If your inference is that the only reason why Australian men would duck the priesthood is because of the celibacy requirement then I am not required to further engage in your fantasy.
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2nd July 2017, 10:25 PM	#50
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by psionl0 If your inference is that the only reason why Australian men would duck the priesthood is because of the celibacy requirement then I am not required to further engage in your fantasy. I made no inference at all you made it. The dishonesty displayed here is beyond belief.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

3rd July 2017, 01:15 AM	#51
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 38,745	Originally Posted by rjh01 Let us have a look at no religion 2016 - 29.6% 2011 - 21.8% 2006 - 18.7% 2001 - 15.5% 1996 - 16.5% (This seems high. Maybe it should be about 14.2% to fit in the trend line) 1991 - 12.9% 1981 - 10.8% It is increasing, but I suggest that some of the latest increase is due to the fact that the no religion option is first not last. Plus a campaign for people to put no religion as their answer. The reference below suggests that this trend started in 1971 and has not stopped since. Ref: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....age/2101.01991 then download the pdf of Census of Population and Housing, Australia in Profile Gives lots of interesting information about Australia up to 1991. Long may the trend continue! We've had enough bias on the religion question in the past. This makes it unbiased.
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3rd July 2017, 03:28 PM	#52
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Long may the trend continue! We've had enough bias on the religion question in the past. This makes it unbiased. The trend is encouraging and what is needed in our societies, is a drop in the disproportionate influence the religious have in government and law making.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

4th July 2017, 06:31 AM	#53
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601	This Pell character : Why was it, seemingly, left to his discretion, and to the discretion of his boss, that he should face these charges? Why was he not simply hauled by his funny collar and dragged back in handcuffs, to be tried like any other ordinary criminal for the crimes he was accused of? Is it that the law itself has special provisions for this sort of thing? Perhaps a provision that Church rules, as opposed to regular law, will apply when the offender a priest or clergyman (unless the Church waives off its special status, something like that)? Does this apply only to pedophiles? If Pell had been accused of robbing a bank, or of peddling drugs, historically or otherwise, would he then still have had this same apparent discretion of “deciding", at his pleasure, and at the Pope’s pleasure, to return and face charges, rather than being dragged back irrespective of what he or his boss felt about it?
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601

4th July 2017, 07:41 AM	#54
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742	Originally Posted by Chanakya This Pell character : Why was it, seemingly, left to his discretion, and to the discretion of his boss, that he should face these charges? Why was he not simply hauled by his funny collar and dragged back in handcuffs, to be tried like any other ordinary criminal for the crimes he was accused of? Is it that the law itself has special provisions for this sort of thing? Perhaps a provision that Church rules, as opposed to regular law, will apply when the offender a priest or clergyman (unless the Church waives off its special status, something like that)? Does this apply only to pedophiles? If Pell had been accused of robbing a bank, or of peddling drugs, historically or otherwise, would he then still have had this same apparent discretion of “deciding", at his pleasure, and at the Pope’s pleasure, to return and face charges, rather than being dragged back irrespective of what he or his boss felt about it? did you read the linked article and the attached sidebar?
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742

4th July 2017, 07:59 AM	#55
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601	Originally Posted by The Big Dog did you read the linked article and the attached sidebar? No actually. Do you know how this works, whether these guys have separate provisions in law made for them, or is it that they're considered citizens of the Vatican, or what? They do seem to enjoy more latitude than you garden variety criminal.
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601

4th July 2017, 08:08 AM	#56
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742	Originally Posted by Chanakya No actually. Do you know how this works, whether these guys have separate provisions in law made for them, or is it that they're considered citizens of the Vatican, or what? They do seem to enjoy more latitude than you garden variety criminal. the explanation is in the attached article. In sum, Pell was in another sovereign country and basically waived extradition back to Australia, so not out of the realm of the ordinary at all.
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742

4th July 2017, 08:12 AM	#57
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601	Originally Posted by The Big Dog the explanation is in the attached article. In sum, Pell was in another sovereign country and basically waived extradition back to Australia, so not out of the realm of the ordinary at all. So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601

4th July 2017, 08:29 AM	#58
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,586	Originally Posted by Chanakya So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks In fairness, we don't know what would have happened if the Australian Government made a formal extradition request and or issued a Red Notice.

4th July 2017, 12:58 PM	#59
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742	Originally Posted by Craig4 In fairness, we don't know what would have happened if the Australian Government made a formal extradition request and or issued a Red Notice. in fairness?
The Big Dog Guest Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 29,742

4th July 2017, 03:03 PM	#60
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by Chanakya So, different country and extradition is what this is about. Not separate laws for pedophiles and clergy. Right, thanks Yes that is correct. The Vatican is a separate state that has no extradition treaty with Australia so the Pope could have dug his heels in and protected Pell within the walls of the city. There has been much speculation in the Australian press about this for months now. The Vatican has given protection to some in the past, but the fallout has been extremely damaging, so one must wonder what the conversation between the pope and Pell was really like. From the article posted in the OP: Quote: In a press conference from the Vatican, Pell said he had spoken to Pope Francis about the case and had been granted leave. "I've kept Pope Francis, the Holy Father, regularly informed during these long months," he said. "I have spoken to him on a number of occasions in the last week. We talked about my need to take leave to clear my name. Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that exchange took place. I suspect Francis had Pell in an arm lock, and told him to piss off and not let the door hit him on the arse on the way out.
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5th July 2017, 06:12 AM	#61
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601	Originally Posted by The Big Dog in fairness? “In fairness”, perhaps, to my original line of thought, that child molesters who’re priests might end up getting greater latitude than your regular non-priestly child molesters?
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601

5th July 2017, 06:21 AM	#62
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Yes that is correct. The Vatican is a separate state that has no extradition treaty with Australia so the Pope could have dug his heels in and protected Pell within the walls of the city. There has been much speculation in the Australian press about this for months now. The Vatican has given protection to some in the past, but the fallout has been extremely damaging, so one must wonder what the conversation between the pope and Pell was really like. From the article posted in the OP: Would love to have been a fly on the wall when that exchange took place. I suspect Francis had Pell in an arm lock, and told him to piss off and not let the door hit him on the arse on the way out. Total comic-book scenario, isn’t it? The arch-villain, all dressed up in a weird dress, lording it over in his toy country, offering refuge to all kinds of scum, and wheeling-dealing away all around the globe. While brainwashed ~~zombies~~ followers kneel and genuflect all around him. Simply begging for septugenarian “expendable” mercenaries to go pay him a visit! (Strictly within the pages of the comic book!)
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 2,601

5th July 2017, 02:57 PM	#63
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by Chanakya Total comic-book scenario, isn’t it? The arch-villain, all dressed up in a weird dress, lording it over in his toy country, offering refuge to all kinds of scum, and wheeling-dealing away all around the globe. While brainwashed ~~zombies~~ followers kneel and genuflect all around him. Simply begging for septugenarian “expendable” mercenaries to go pay him a visit! (Strictly within the pages of the comic book!) An amusing idea Chanakya. Getting back to Pell however. If some here are not familiar with recent history, he was summoned to appear before the royal commission in Australia some months ago, but ducked that by claiming ill health prevented him from long distance flights. I wouldn't mind betting he has a trick or two more like this up his sleeve.
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5th July 2017, 02:59 PM	#64
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 21,306	Originally Posted by Thor 2 An amusing idea Chanakya. Getting back to Pell however. If some here are not familiar with recent history, he was summoned to appear before the royal commission in Australia some months ago, but ducked that by claiming ill health prevented him from long distance flights. I wouldn't mind betting he has a trick or two more like this up his sleeve. Pell is not the first to seek asylum in the Vatican.
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5th July 2017, 03:08 PM	#65
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by abaddon Pell is not the first to seek asylum in the Vatican. No indeed as I have made mention of myself a few times. A virtual den of thieves no less.
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5th July 2017, 03:20 PM	#66
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,001	Originally Posted by The Big Dog Betteridge's law of headlines Originally Posted by acbytesla Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no. As with similar "laws" (e.g., Murphy's law), it is intended as a humorous adage rather than the literal truth. While Murphy exploits confimation bias acting on random results, Betteridge's law certainly holds true at rates better than random: Often, the reason why a headline is posed as a yes/no question is because the author is not certain the answer is "yes" and wishes to avoid the risk of being caught making a false assertion, or they even know the answer is no, the headline is merely a PR device, and a vehicle to pass a lie without literally being a lie. Anyway, it hold true in the current case, too: No, the RCC is not in "freefall". If it is declining at all (certainly is in Europe and some other developed; on the rise in Africa, LA?), it would be better described as "decay" or "corrosion".
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8th July 2017, 06:58 AM	#67
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,586	http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-vat...ancis-backyard If it was in free fall would senior Vatican officials be holding such wild parties?

8th July 2017, 08:44 AM	#68
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,299	Originally Posted by Oystein While Murphy exploits confimation bias acting on random results, Betteridge's law certainly holds true at rates better than random: Often, the reason why a headline is posed as a yes/no question is because the author is not certain the answer is "yes" and wishes to avoid the risk of being caught making a false assertion, or they even know the answer is no, the headline is merely a PR device, and a vehicle to pass a lie without literally being a lie. Anyway, it hold true in the current case, too: No, the RCC is not in "freefall". If it is declining at all (certainly is in Europe and some other developed; on the rise in Africa, LA?), it would be better described as "decay" or "corrosion". All religions are in decline in the West with some declining faster than others. The RCC is definitely declining faster than most others. As for poorer nations. They are more susceptible to superstitions and religion. There is direct inverse corollary between the wealth and education levels of a country and it's religiosity.
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8th July 2017, 02:49 PM	#69
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,519	Originally Posted by acbytesla All religions are in decline in the West with some declining faster than others. The RCC is definitely declining faster than most others. As for poorer nations. They are more susceptible to superstitions and religion. There is direct inverse corollary between the wealth and education levels of a country and it's religiosity. I agree with you there with one qualification. USA must be either uneducated or poor as it is a religious nation compared with the UK and Australia and many other similar countries. I think the answer is that something else is making USA more religious than other countries. I am not sure what. Maybe lack of security?
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8th July 2017, 03:07 PM	#70
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,299	Originally Posted by rjh01 I agree with you there with one qualification. USA must be either uneducated or poor as it is a religious nation compared with the UK and Australia and many other similar countries. I think the answer is that something else is making USA more religious than other countries. I am not sure what. Maybe lack of security? I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well. https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon. What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

8th July 2017, 03:22 PM	#71
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by Craig4 http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-vat...ancis-backyard If it was in free fall would senior Vatican officials be holding such wild parties? An amusing story thanks. Just a return to the good old days perhaps when The Vatican was like a whore house. I read of this in a book called "Sex In History" by Gordon Rattray Taylor some years ago. Francis has a lot on his plate these days and must have some doubts about the wisdom of taking on the job. The article mentions the Pell thing also.
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8th July 2017, 03:24 PM	#72
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 26,519	Originally Posted by acbytesla I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well. https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon. What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents. You could say that for Australia. Yet the biggest single religion is "no religion" in Australia. One factor that might have held it up is the Vietnam war. While Australia sent troops, USA poured just about everything they had into it. Yet lost. People had to have faith in something. They were suffering too much from the war. They could not have faith in their country. So they kept to their religion. That is my view.
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8th July 2017, 03:40 PM	#73
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,891	Vatican outlaws gluten-free bread for Holy Communion Well, now. This will just be the final straw. Not due to the fact that Catholics will insist on gluten-free hosts, but their realization that "I'm supposed to believe what?" (transubstantiation)
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8th July 2017, 03:54 PM	#74
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by acbytesla I watched a Ted Talk by a demographer on this 2 days ago. Religion is very much on the decline in the US as well. https://youtu.be/YtAR_OGzlcg Yes, it is higher than other Western nations. One of the arguments I've read for that is that unlike other Western nations the US has never had a State religion. It has always been a free for all. Another was the level of immigration was higher for a longer time. I'm not sure these are the actual reasons for this phenomenon. What seems to be clear is that religion is waning generationally. Children are growing up to be less religious than their parents. Just watched it and David Voas presents a good case arguing that religion will not stage a comeback in the West. One reason for the USA phenomena may be there are large numbers of poorly educated within its shores, and when we look at religiosity versus education level within the USA the trend is obvious.
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8th July 2017, 04:07 PM	#75
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,609	Originally Posted by alfaniner Vatican outlaws gluten-free bread for Holy Communion Well, now. This will just be the final straw. Not due to the fact that Catholics will insist on gluten-free hosts, but their realization that "I'm supposed to believe what?" (transubstantiation) They probably got some of their best minds on the subject, and figured the gluten is needed in the chemical composition, to make good Jesus flesh. Those with intolerance of gluten need not worry, because if the priest does the consecration right there would be none left in its original form.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard. Last edited by Thor 2; 8th July 2017 at 04:10 PM.