Coronavirus and faith

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

There used to be a “story” making the rounds about a community that was suffering from a drought so the local minister got the congregation to meet to pray for rain but after everyone was assembled the preacher looked over the crowd and told them to go back home because no one brought an umbrella.


https://deadstate.org/christian-mega...&ICID=ref_fark

O, ye of little faith.

I like the story.



I was shocked when I heard that several American bishops had cancelled mass. As a young Catholic kid, I was told that skipping mass was a mortal sin and a one way ticket to Hell, although of course confession was available to stop that. But what if you got hit by a car on your way to confession after you had skipped mass?

You were allowed to skip if you were sick, so I suppose it isn't exactly rescinding any doctrine. Health was always a reason enough to skip, but I suspect that fifty years ago they would have held mass anyway, and prayed for healing.

I was pleased that intelligent heads prevailed in this case. Faith is all well and good, but it's good to see reality winning in some of the places.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I was pleased that intelligent heads prevailed in this case. Faith is all well and good, but it's good to see reality winning in some of the places.

Seems to me that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services.

[dann]

Originally Posted by ynot

Religious (god) beliefs are insane beliefs, and those that believe them are insane in that regard and to that degree.

(waits for Arth to arrive with his pedantic, sacred cow mental health term rules)

Why wait for Arth? Because you're incapable of grasping the idea that most religious worshippers aren't as stupid as the cherry-picked exceptions presented in this thread?

Why do you still feel the need to ignore the fact that the vast majority of believers either do without religious services altogether or resort to televised or online religious worship when they feel the need to seek comfort in their faith? Why do you have to be such a zealot about it that you have to stay in denial about this fact?
Why is it so important to you to ignore the fact that some people are incredibly careless about exposing themselves as well as others to the virus - without any kind of religious idea in their heads?
I suppose the idea is too pedantic for you to consider - in this situation as in any other. Like any other fundamentalist believer, you take comfort in the one idea that seems to confirm your faith, ignoring anything that shows that you're wrong.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

(I noticed one guy with a cross around his neck! Focus on him, ynot, and repeat after me: Religious (god) beliefs are insane beliefs, and those that believe them are insane in that regard and to that degree. Religious (god) beliefs are insane beliefs, and those that believe them are insane in that regard and to that degree. Religious (god) beliefs are insane beliefs, and those that believe them are insane in that regard and to that degree.
If you keep doing it, you won't notice that these people aren't there to worship any kind of religion - in any regard or to any degree.)

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Seems to me that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services.

I'm sure you've done your utmost in your Google search for religious groups that have gone digital in this situation, right?

[dann]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I was pleased that intelligent heads prevailed in this case. Faith is all well and good, but it's good to see reality winning in some of the places.

But it's weird to see how hard it is for many people in this forum to stop ignoring reality sometimes.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Just went past the Hillsong Church and the carpark was empty. It would seem these Pentecostals don't think their god is going to protect them from coronavirus then. I wonder what's happening in the mega churches elsewhere?

Don’t worry I’m sure they’ll be able to claim for grants from the government for loss of revenue....

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Darat

Don’t worry I’m sure they’ll be able to claim for grants from the government for loss of revenue....

Given that our Prime Minister is a Pentecostal I'm sure you're right there.

[dann]

Why wonder? Religious service at megachurches was always televised. Is there any reason to expect that they'll stop doing that?!

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

Why wonder? Religious service at megachurches was always televised. Is there any reason to expect that they'll stop doing that?!

Oh dear. You seem to have missed the point in a spectacular way dann.

I was talking about the faithful, who may have felt some God given immunity from coronavirus, to allow them to gather together and sing His praises. Those who refrain may not be strong enough in their faith.

Is there some evidence you have stumbled across, suggesting infection via your television is possible, that gives some relevance to the above?

[dann]

Oh dear. Let's look at Thor2's actual idea:

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Yes well Pixel, if people become infected as a result of attending these prayer meetings, the church leaders have a ready answer: Their faith wasn't strong enough. The line has always worked when faith healers don't come up with the goods.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Just went past the Hillsong Church and the carpark was empty. It would seem these Pentecostals don't think their god is going to protect them from coronavirus then. I wonder what's happening in the mega churches elsewhere?

The church leaders appear to have a very different ready answer from what Thor2 would like to make us think: A way to prevent people from becoming infected! They don't need the line that has always worked when they can go online. When God closes a door, he opens Windows ®.

This is why Thor2 along with everybody else shouldn't wonder about "what's happening in the mega churches elsewhere?"
Christians are obviously just like everybody else in this situation: They take precautions to avoid getting infected. So I am grateful for Thor2's observations from the Hillsong Church. They help disprove The Atheist's impression "that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services." There aren't!

I myself would never go as far as The Atheist and start talking about 'sensible religious groups'. Sensible religion is a contradiction in terms. But it's a mistake that's easy to make for people who enjoy portraying believers as stone cold crazies: When reality doesn't live up to their expectations, they have to stay in denial to cope with the cognitive dissonance: How can Christians make obviously sensible decisions like practicing social distancing when they are supposed to be utterly incapable of doing so? Well, pseudo-atheists try to persuade themselves that the vast majority of Christians are still "plain nuts" even when reality shows that, no, apparently they're not. The vast majority of Christians cope with the coronavirus much like everybody else, and many of them are even concerned about the welfare of their fellow human beings and try to help protect them. In addition to this, they also pray, but that's it. That's all that makes them different from non-believers.

Oh ye of too much faith in your distorted pseudo-atheist view of believers ...
The truth about religion is so bloody simple, and yet you manage to get it wrong every time.

[The Atheist]

I was going to post this in the humour thread, but I think it's better in here, even though it is hellishly funny.

The "Only in America" story of a church bloke (and a couple of others) suing the Governor of New Hampshire for restricting his ability to have a full church service.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...irus-measures/

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Millions of equally faithful people died of the black plague and 1918 Flu. The Lord helps them what help themselves.

Leviticus 13 has instructions regarding isolation in the case of infectious diseases.

"45 “Now the leper on whom the sore is, his clothes shall be torn and his head bare; and he shall cover his mustache, and cry, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 He shall be unclean. All the days he has the sore he shall be unclean. He is unclean, and he shall dwell alone; his dwelling shall be outside the camp."

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I was going to post this in the humour thread, but I think it's better in here, even though it is hellishly funny.

The "Only in America" story of a church bloke (and a couple of others) suing the Governor of New Hampshire for restricting his ability to have a full church service.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...irus-measures/

And this is one of the others:

Quote:

Another plaintiff, former Republican State Representative David W. Binford, said the order would prevent him from attending meetings of the Grafton County Republican Committee.

[The Atheist]

Aaand, in Michigan, the rules of no gatherings over 50 people won't be enforced for churches:

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...people-gather/

[dann]

Well, that's one way (not) to learn from South Korea: The 'cult' behind South Korea coronavirus outbreak (BBC News, March 14, 2020)

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

Oh dear. Let's look at Thor2's actual idea:






The church leaders appear to have a very different ready answer from what Thor2 would like to make us think: A way to prevent people from becoming infected! They don't need the line that has always worked when they can go online. When God closes a door, he opens Windows ®.

This is why Thor2 along with everybody else shouldn't wonder about "what's happening in the mega churches elsewhere?"
Christians are obviously just like everybody else in this situation: They take precautions to avoid getting infected. So I am grateful for Thor2's observations from the Hillsong Church. They help disprove The Atheist's impression "that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services." There aren't!

I myself would never go as far as The Atheist and start talking about 'sensible religious groups'. Sensible religion is a contradiction in terms. But it's a mistake that's easy to make for people who enjoy portraying believers as stone cold crazies: When reality doesn't live up to their expectations, they have to stay in denial to cope with the cognitive dissonance: How can Christians make obviously sensible decisions like practicing social distancing when they are supposed to be utterly incapable of doing so? Well, pseudo-atheists try to persuade themselves that the vast majority of Christians are still "plain nuts" even when reality shows that, no, apparently they're not. The vast majority of Christians cope with the coronavirus much like everybody else, and many of them are even concerned about the welfare of their fellow human beings and try to help protect them. In addition to this, they also pray, but that's it. That's all that makes them different from non-believers.

Oh ye of too much faith in your distorted pseudo-atheist view of believers ...
The truth about religion is so bloody simple, and yet you manage to get it wrong every time.

My head is spinning from trying to make some kind go sense out of the above convoluted nonsense.

Am I a "pseudo-atheist" dann? Is that why I "get it wrong every time"? You have to help me here.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Aaand, in Michigan, the rules of no gatherings over 50 people won't be enforced for churches:

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/...people-gather/

Interesting but most disturbing.

Careful you don't call these people nuts however or someone will come after you.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Careful you don't call these people nuts however or someone will come after you.

Mate, I've been threatened by gangs, pseudoscientists and supporters of the paranormal. None of them bothered me, and it's a stone cold certainty no pathetic sky-fairy worshipping theist would ever bother me.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

My head is spinning from trying to make some kind go sense out of the above convoluted nonsense.

That's not a nice feeling, but you should try to make up your mind: Is the problem that it's nonsense or is it that you can't make some kind of sense out of it?

Quote:

Am I a "pseudo-atheist" dann? Is that why I "get it wrong every time"? You have to help me here.

Yes, that is the reason why you get it wrong every time. You should try to take a look at what religious worship actually consists of instead of always trying to force it into your biased view of what it ought to be according to your preconceived notion. It is a little more complicated than that, but not so complicated that it's impossible: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13030861

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

You should try to take a look at what religious worship actually consists of ...

I can help with that - a perfect example of a Pentecostal/Evangelical church in action: 1800 people keeping their distance and not touching each other.

(Do let the video run to see them in action.)

https://www.brproud.com/health/coron...d-19-outbreak/

Quote:

Pastor Tony Spell says the way to handle a pandemic is through the healing hand of Jesus.

That is our command, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

[dann]

I will try a different approach because I may have made a strategic error.
I would like to compliment you for this post:

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Just went past the Hillsong Church and the carpark was empty. It would seem these Pentecostals don't think their god is going to protect them from coronavirus then. I wonder what's happening in the mega churches elsewhere?

Here you take a look at reality and you come up with a piece of truth: these Pentecostals stay away from church when a virus is making the rounds. I enjoyed it so much more because I could use it against The Atheist's hyperbolic thinking.

But then I think that you are the one who makes a strategic error. I assume that we both agree that it is a good idea to practice social distancing in this situation. (It goes without saying that we both agree that staying away from all kinds of prayer meetings is the best option, but that's where we are, that's not where the Pentecostals are.)

My approach to the fact that these Pentecostals do social distancing even though they would obviously have preferred to worship their God if it weren't unsafe is one of praise: 'Yes, Pentecostals! You are doing something right!'

I don't feel the need to mock them for that! I mean, you may mock people when they do something wrong, in particular if they do it on purpose, but that is not the case here. It may even be possible to come to some kind of consensus with them against other denominations (like "the Grafton County Republican Committee") who are more fanatical in this situation. (Plenty of examples have been mentioned by other posters above.)
And I don't need to go any further than that: Pentecostals and I have one thing in common: We don't want to get infected with the coronavirus, and we don't want to infect others like those bloody ... you name it!

And that's it for today. We have bonded in the name of common sense and against a mutual enemy! Hallelujah!

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I can help with that - a perfect example of a Pentecostal/Evangelical church in action: 1800 people keeping their distance and not touching each other.

(Do let the video run to see them in action.)

https://www.brproud.com/health/coron...d-19-outbreak/

So you managed to find a group of Pentecostals who are not as sensible as the ones that Thor 2 saw (or didn't see because they stayed away)? Congratulations! I'm sure you can find more than that.
Do you think that you have now proven your previous impression right?

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Seems to me that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services.

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump wants churches to be packed for Easter.
That should be an interesting test of faith

[dann]

His or theirs?

[Ulf Nereng]

It's a mixed bag, obviously. Here in Norway all the churches are closed and priests going online. The catholic church, too, as well as the small churches like Methodists etc. There could be some exceptions but I haven't heard of any.

And then there are some fruitcakes out there who think that God will protect them if only they have enough faith. Should we point and laugh? Or just point out that God didn't help during previous plagues?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

I'm sure you can find more than that.

There are already quite a few in the thread.

I don't feel any need to prove a point - everything about churches is pathetically stupid and none of them will get a single point for accepting science when it suits them.

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Trump wants churches to be packed for Easter.
That should be an interesting test of faith

I bet he would suggest that all ministers preach "Thank God for Donald Trump."

[Athyrio]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I bet he would suggest that all ministers preach "Thank God for Donald Trump."

Can’t wait for the day when somebody can honestly preach 1Cor. 15:52, when we’ve seen the “last Trump”.👌

[dann]

Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng

It's a mixed bag, obviously. Here in Norway all the churches are closed and priests going online. The catholic church, too, as well as the small churches like Methodists etc. There could be some exceptions but I haven't heard of any.

It's the same thing in Denmark. I also haven't heard of any congregations insisting on their God-given as well as constitutional right to infect each other.

Quote:

And then there are some fruitcakes out there who think that God will protect them if only they have enough faith. Should we point and laugh? Or just point out that God didn't help during previous plagues?

The latter, I think. I might even go as far as telling them that "God helps those that help themselves" - without revealing to them that the origin of the motto (Wikipedia) is actually heathen!

ETA: Churches are closed, online religious services are a big hit (TV2, March 15, 2020). I didn't succeed in finding one single exception to this in Denmark, Christian or Muslim.

[dann]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

There are already quite a few in the thread.

Yes, there are! Cherry picking is always useful when you're trying to prove a lie.

Quote:

I don't feel any need to prove a point - everything about churches is pathetically stupid and none of them will get a single point for accepting science when it suits them.

No, of course you don't feel any need to prove your point. When it seems to you that it is so, that's gotta be good enough. Nothing beats confirmation bias:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Seems to me that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

Can’t wait for the day when somebody can honestly preach 1Cor. 15:52, when we’ve seen the “last Trump”.👌

Well, Barron is innocent until proven guilty, but he might want to change his last name some day ...

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I like the story.



I was shocked when I heard that several American bishops had cancelled mass. As a young Catholic kid, I was told that skipping mass was a mortal sin and a one way ticket to Hell, although of course confession was available to stop that. But what if you got hit by a car on your way to confession after you had skipped mass?

You were allowed to skip if you were sick, so I suppose it isn't exactly rescinding any doctrine. Health was always a reason enough to skip, but I suspect that fifty years ago they would have held mass anyway, and prayed for healing.

I was pleased that intelligent heads prevailed in this case. Faith is all well and good, but it's good to see reality winning in some of the places.

In 1918 churches and places of worship were closed, along with schools and theatres in most of the USA around September because of the "Spanish" influenza.

On 06OCT1918 one Father William Scholl held morning mass as scheduled at St. Joseph German Catholic Church in Cincinnati and was arrested by police (after stating "he was not interested in the order [of the city health board prohibiting such gatherings]". The priest was condemned by the church hierarchy and other clergy.

In Los Angeles 'Christian Scientists' protested against, and ignored, ordered probibiting services stating that their "services for the dissemination of a universal understanding of omnipotent Divine power, reliance upon which effectually aids in destroying the dread of contagion" were needed. Five were jailed.

In Salt Lake City the Mormon tabernacle, around fifty other LDS churches, and other churches and synagogues were closed.

The Birmingham Age-Herald carried a piece by one George Stuart, a noted Methodist revivalist preacher stating that "Intelligent Christians" should trust in science rather than trying to "tempt God to perform a miracle in the preservation of our health". And further that "Christians do not discount their faith in the omnipotence of their God by keeping their bodies and homes and streets clean and nongerm producing; by using care in traffic and travel, accepting vaccination, sprays and disinfectants and keeping God’s own laws of health and life".
Failing this "is the fruit of ignorance and false teaching".

However the Baptists blamed sin for the influenza; the Reverend John Quincy Adams Henry claimed that the Christian churches had been "lamentably weak in moral and spiritual leadership and have not yet risen to the august occasion confronting them. Our churches have become conventional, cowardly and worldly. Not only the people, but the churches must repent their sins, and when they do the plagues will cease".

Some clergy, notably Cardinal James Gibbons (the second USAian RCC cardinal, author of The Faith of Our Fathers and who featured in Hochschild’s King Leopold’s Ghost) felt that services would be a reassurance to people during the pandemic.

[dann]

So what is the point of your answer to Meadmaker?
That it's not "good to see reality winning in some of the places"???

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

Yes, there are! Cherry picking is always useful when you're trying to prove a lie.

"Lie"? Srlsy?

We're talking about grown-ups who still believe in fairies - the truth is a fairly subjective subject.

Which is why facts become irrelevant.

When the entire religious world of ~6 billion people all share different versions of the same delusions, do you think it bothers me for a billisecond whether something is mathematically true or not?

Hint: it doesn't.

Originally Posted by dann

Nothing beats confirmation bias:

It's not that - there is no bias - I loathe all forms of bollocks equally: religion, pseudoscience, paranormalia... you name it, I hate them all intensely.

So please, don't expect me to stick to the facts when ******** all over people's sacred cows. A lot of the time I'm hyperbolic about those subjects in a way I try not to be when discussing the real world and not some idiot's fantasy.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Data point:

Louisiana pastor defies coronavirus order, draws over 1K people to services

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...eople-n1168501

"It’s not a concern," Spell told the outlet. "The virus, we believe, is politically motivated. We hold our religious rights dear and we are going to assemble no matter what someone says."

[dann]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

The virus, we believe, is politically motivated.

And the virus is not only politically motivated, it's also blatantly ageist!

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by dann

And the virus is not only politically motivated, it's also blatantly ageist!

Just to be clear. It wasn't me who said that!

Another data point:

Conservative Pastor Claims He 'Healed' Viewers of Coronavirus Through Their TV Screens
https://www.newsweek.com/conservativ...creens-1492044

Kenneth Copeland this time.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

Here you take a look at reality and you come up with a piece of truth: these Pentecostals stay away from church when a virus is making the rounds. I enjoyed it so much more because I could use it against The Atheist's hyperbolic thinking.

I give in dann. The way you consistently miss the point is extraordinary.

I am just pointing out the inconsistencies in theistic belief and action. Some think their faith will give protection and act accordingly, whereas others profess strong faith but do not act as if their faith will help. The former have the "Their faith wasn't strong enough." card they play when things don't work out, and the latter fall back on the "You should not test God." to justify their seemingly faithless approach.

It's a tangled web that I find somewhat amusing. You don't? Well that's tough I suppose.

I will keep an eye open for hyperbole in The Atheist's scribblings. Can't say it's been obvious until now.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I will keep an eye open for hyperbole in The Atheist's scribblings. Can't say it's been obvious until now.

No, I guess you can't say. They've been so inconspicuous until now that a man with your focus and attention to detail can be forgiven for not noticing:

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Seems to me that for every sensible religious group there are 10 which are plain nuts and still holding services.

Originally Posted by The Atheist

So please, don't expect me to stick to the facts when ******** all over people's sacred cows. A lot of the time I'm hyperbolic about those subjects in a way I try not to be when discussing the real world and not some idiot's fantasy.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Just to be clear. It wasn't me who said that!

I know, I know! I should have kept the quotation marks.