Coronavirus and faith

[dann]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Now this is a nice gesture.

Ramadan: German church opens doors for Muslim prayers

Quote:

A church in Berlin has opened its doors to Muslim worshippers unable to fit into their mosque under new social distancing rules.
Germany allowed religious services to resume on 4 May but worshippers must maintain a distance of 1.5m (5ft).
As a result the Dar Assalam mosque in the city's Neukölln district could only hold a fraction of its congregation.
But the Martha Lutheran church in Kreuzberg offered to help by hosting Friday prayers at the end of Ramadan.

Appropriate. Kreuzberg is often called Little Istanbul. However, see post above.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yeah, let's open those churches!

What could go wrong?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cdc-c...b6cc6f9b7344eb

Yes indeed Trump is taking on those who would view churches as non essential services while recognising liquor stores and abortion clinics as such. "What this country needs is more prayer not less." He claims.

Is there no limit to this guys stupidity? Ingesting or injecting disinfectant, taking drugs that worsen the effect of COVID-19, it just goes on and on.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yeah, let's open those churches!

What could go wrong?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cdc-c...b6cc6f9b7344eb

I almost Od'd on schadenfreude yesterday as I rode past the empty carpark of the Hillsong Church near where I live. I wonder how successful their tithe collections are these days. The welded smiles on the faces of preachers may be turning into scowls.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I almost Od'd on schadenfreude yesterday as I rode past the empty carpark of the Hillsong Church near where I live. I wonder how successful their tithe collections are these days. The welded smiles on the faces of preachers may be turning into scowls.

They've likely got the members set up with automatic deductions from their bank accounts. And don't have to spend money putting on the show. It's a win-win!

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

I almost Od'd on schadenfreude yesterday as I rode past the empty carpark of the Hillsong Church near where I live. I wonder how successful their tithe collections are these days. The welded smiles on the faces of preachers may be turning into scowls.

There's been a piece or two on that very subject - https://www.economist.com/united-sta...ing-in-america

Quote:

Its income, which comes chiefly from weekly donations, plummeted. Several employees lost their jobs.

Boo ******* hoo.

[dann]

I don't think any Danish churches will have difficulties practicing social distancing now that they are reopening. They wouldn't even have had difficulties practicing social distancing before the outbreak - except, maybe, once a year. I'm surprised to hear that more than one third of the population visite a church on Xmas Eve, and I have a hard time believing it. Outside of the big cities, maybe ...

Quote:

According to the latest inquiry (!) about 2.4% of church members attend services every week, although on Christmas Eve more than a third of the population attend. However, the church is still widely used for traditional family ceremonies including christenings and confirmations. In the year 2017, 32.7% of weddings and 83.3% funerals were performed in the Church of Denmark, and 70% of children in grade 7–8 were confirmed. The level of weekly church attendance is similar to that in Norway and Sweden.
Church of Denmark: Faith and church attendance (Wikipedia)

Quote:

Mange kirker står i dag mere eller mindre tomme Tal viser, at kun to procent af folkekirkens medlemmer regelmæssigt går i kirke, hvilket betyder, at der nogle steder kun sidder to eller tre i kirken ved en almindelig højmesse.
Lad os lukke nogle af de tomme kirker (Nordjyske.dk, Feb. 18, 2007)

Translation:
Nowadays many churches are more or less empty. Numbers show that only two percent of the members of the Church of Denmark visit the church regularly, which means, that in some churches only two or three attend ordinary mass.
Let's close down some of the empty churches

In other words, Danish churches are the place to go if you feel the need to practice social distancing indoors.

[dann]

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's best Christian, about the Evangelical grifters in the pandemic:
May 24, 2020

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Trebuchet]

So (rule of), a few days ago Trump declared religion essential and said he would override any governors who said otherwise. How many governors did he override? How many magachurches* opened up in defiance yesterday? I haven't heard anything about either.

*I first typed that by accident, went back to correct it, and decided to leave it.

[dann]

They will have to meet somewhere to pray the virus away, won't they?
I bet Wifi rays interfere with prayer power or something:

Quote:

“If there is a supernatural power, which a lot of us believe, would that power of prayer and divine intervention change the outcomes in a concerted fashion? That was our question.”
He stressed, “It has to be a true supernatural intervention.”
Lakkireddy admitted that even his own wife, a fellow physician, is “skeptical.”
“But it’s not like we’re putting anyone at risk,” he told NPR. “A miracle could happen. There’s always hope, right?
Researchers studying power of prayer in coronavirus patients (NYPost, May 3, 2020)

I think he may risk being sued for copyright infringement. Doesn't it sound an awful lot like Trump's slogans when he advertised for hydroxychloroquine?

I found it here at Anthony Jeselnik's twitter account.

[dann]

The Atlantic (May 29, 2020):
Inside a Drive-In Church

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Ulf Nereng]

Originally Posted by dann

I don't think any Danish churches will have difficulties practicing social distancing now that they are reopening. They wouldn't even have had difficulties practicing social distancing before the outbreak - except, maybe, once a year. I'm surprised to hear that more than one third of the population visite a church on Xmas Eve, and I have a hard time believing it. Outside of the big cities, maybe ...





Translation:
Nowadays many churches are more or less empty. Numbers show that only two percent of the members of the Church of Denmark visit the church regularly, which means, that in some churches only two or three attend ordinary mass.
Let's close down some of the empty churches

In other words, Danish churches are the place to go if you feel the need to practice social distancing indoors.

It's the same here in Norway. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's a family tradition for many. Often it's all the extended family, uncles, parents, grandparents etc celebrating christmas "the same way they always have". I can understand how they see value in doing it like that.

[dann]

"it's a family tradition", that's also how Helen Russell describes it in her book The Year of Living Danishly (GoodReads)

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

"it's a family tradition", that's also how Helen Russell describes it in her book The Year of Living Danishly (GoodReads)

Sounds like a good read:

Quote:

Denmark is officially the happiest nation on Earth. When Helen Russell is forced to move to rural Jutland, can she discover the secrets of their happiness? Or will the long, dark winters and pickled herring take their toll?

Sounds like a good read but I think the partaking of sill matjes or sill dill, washed down with aquavit would only be a good thing.

[dann]

In the meantime, the Finns beat us! (Forbes, March 20, 2020)
10 Happiest Countries in the World, Ranked (Conde Nast Traveller, April 10, 2020)

I guess I'm a bad Dane. Pickled herring is supposed to be healthy, but I never really liked it. I eat it occasionally in the company of others just to make sure that they don't think I'm a member of a sleeper cell.
And of all my bottles of liquor, I don't think I have aquavit in any of them. If I do, I'll consider using it as hand sanitizer. Caraway doesn't smell too bad.

[dann]

Nigeria reopens churches, mosques and hotels amid rising cases of Covid-19 (CNN, June 2, 2020)

If it weren't for the color of the congregants, that could be a photo from a Danish church. The rate of attendance and social distancing is spot on.

[dann]

Tanzania has prayed the virus away!

Quote:

Tanzania’s leader on Monday declared the East African country “COVID-19 free,” local media reported.
President John Magufuli attributed the claimed success over the worldwide pandemic to prayers and fasting that the people of Tanzania have offered to God.
“It gives me joy to be the leader of a country that puts God first, God loves Tanzania,” Jamvi TV in Tanzania reported.
“The works of the devil will always be defeated in Tanzania because Tanzanians love God and that is why even the corona has been defeated by God,” Magufuli told a Catholic congregation in the capital Dodoma.
(aa.com, June 8, 2020)

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dann

Tanzania has prayed the virus away!

I think their president rates in the top ten crazy national leaders at the moment, and probably the current worst in Africa, which isn't an easy feat.

I fail to see what they think will happen by denying it - time will out them.

[dann]

A brand-new BBC video says that neighboring countries are closing their borders to Tanzania:
Coronavirus in Tanzania: Has Covid-19 disappeared? (BBC News, June 12, 2020)
My guess is that it's not because they are atheists ...

[dann]

Quote:

En gemensam körsammankomst tros vara startskottet för utbrottet. Denna veckan har ett garage blivit tillfällig provlokal för öborna på Vrångö i Göteborgs södra skärgård. Nu har närmare 100 personer fått symtom – en fjärdedel av öns befolkning.
(...)
– Men mer än hälften som var med vid körsammankomsten har testat positivt sedan tidigare
(...)
Den 24 maj så träffades medlemmar ur tre olika kyrkor i en ekumenisk sammankomst. Några dagar senare så insjuknade de första körmedlemmarna,
Coronautbrott på Vrångö – nu masstestas öboerna (SVT.se, June 12, 2020) [/url]

Translaton:
Choir practice is assumed to have been the start of the outbreak. This week a garage has become a coincidental room for choir practice for the islanders on Vrång Island in the southern archipelago of Göteborg. Now close to 100 persons have symptoms - one quarter of the island's population.
(...)
- More than half of the participant of the choir event have already been tested positive.
(...)
May 24 the members of three different churches had an ecumenical meeting. A few days later, the first members of the choir fell ill.
Corona outbreak at Vrång Island - now the islanders are mass tested

With 25% of islanders showing symptoms, I guess there's reason to assume that almost everybody has been infected.

[Darat]

Atheism protects you from the virus!

But Judaism increases it... can't link direct to the story, you can search for it on the BBC news site.

Jewish people at higher risk in UK

[https://ichef]

Robert Cuffe
BBC head of statistics

Jewish men are twice as likely to die with Covid-19 and Jewish women 20% more likely to die with Covid-19 than Christian men and women, according to analysis from the Office for National Statistics.

[dann]

I am not so sure about your first claim. I know atheists who love to attend gospel practice regularly. Most Danes are pretty fluent in English, but it tends to be easier to ignore the lyrics when they are in your second language.

[dann]

Quote:

(RNS)— When André Gagné heard Stella Immanuel, a Trump-supporting doctor, talk about demon sex and hydroxychloroquine, he knew what she was talking about.
At least the demon part.
“That’s essentially Genesis Chapter 6,” said Gagné, professor of theological studies at Concordia University in Montreal. Or at least one interpretation of the passage.
In that chapter of the Bible, spiritual creatures known as the “sons of God” look down on human women, find them to be good-looking and decide to sleep with them, leading to the birth of a group known as the Nephilim. All of this behavior eventually culminates in the Flood.
Why is Trump supporter Stella Immanuel talking about demon sex and spiritual warfare? A professor explains (Religious News, July 29, 2020)

Trump's New Favorite COVID Doctor Believes in Alien DNA, Demon Sperm and Hydroxychloroquine (DailyBeast, July 28, 2020)

Fire Power Ministries with Dr Stella Immanuel (Facebook)

The story is much better in Pidgin!
Dr Stella Immanuel biography: Doctor in hydroxychloroquine video wey Facebook & Twitter delete bin declare say Covid-19 pandemic na diabolic spiritual battle inside America Frontline Doctors video (BBC Pidgin, July 28, 2020)

[dann]

Jail sentence for Canadian preacher in Myanmar:

Quote:

"If people hold the Bible and Jesus in their hearts, the disease will not come in," he proclaimed in one video to a roomful of faithful.
"The only person who can cure and give peace in this pandemic is Jesus."
Lah tested positive for coronavirus shortly afterwards, and dozens of confirmed cases were traced back to his followers.
The preacher was arrested after recovering from the illness in May and faced up to three years in jail for violating the Natural Disaster and Management Law.
Canadian pastor jailed in Myanmar for defying coronavirus ban (AFP/MSN, Aug. 6, 2020)

[dann]

Nearly 100 people in Ohio got sick after one man infected with the coronavirus attended a church service (BusinessInsider, Aug. 6, 2020)

53 at the service, 18 infected by some of those 53.

[dann]

When I saw this title, my first though was that other African pastors must know what is wise behavior during the pandemic.
This guy isn't one of them:

Viable TV (Aug. 7, 2020):
WOW!! Finally, African Pastors Are Getting Wiser!! Covid-19 Is In the Vaccine, Do Not Take It

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Apparently, African conspiracy nuts are Trump fans, too.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

When I saw this title, my first though was that other African pastors must know what is wise behavior during the pandemic.
This guy isn't one of them:

Viable TV (Aug. 7, 2020):
WOW!! Finally, African Pastors Are Getting Wiser!! Covid-19 Is In the Vaccine, Do Not Take It

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Apparently, African conspiracy nuts are Trump fans, too.

Wow indeed!

That African Paster seems to have his finger firmly on the pulse of the matter.

Didn't mention any sources for his information but then if he got is straight from the Lord I guess he didn't need to.

[dann]

Ukrainian church leader who called Covid-19 'God's punishment' for same-sex marriage tests positive for virus (CNN, Sep. 9, 2020)

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

Ukrainian church leader who called Covid-19 'God's punishment' for same-sex marriage tests positive for virus (CNN, Sep. 9, 2020)

These religious leaders who speak with such authority about God's intentions sure give us a laugh at times. I wonder how he explains to himself and others this turn of events.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

These religious leaders who speak with such authority about God's intentions sure give us a laugh at times. I wonder how he explains to himself and others this turn of events.

There is always the “mysterious ways” card.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by dann

Ukrainian church leader who called Covid-19 'God's punishment' for same-sex marriage tests positive for virus (CNN, Sep. 9, 2020)

That's easy. The imitation of Christ thing, minus the mystical overtones and overlaid with the stigmata theme. He's the sacrifice, much like Jesus himself. All praise be, hallelujah!

[dann]

Counter-faithers:

Quote:

A Mississippi church burned in an apparent act of arson is the same church at the center of a legal battle with the city over safer-at-home orders issued in response to the coronavirus, according to officials.
The First Pentecostal Church of Holly Springs was destroyed in an early morning blaze Wednesday, local station WMC-TV reported. Investigators said they found a menacing message spray-painted on the pavement of the church’s parking lot, leading them to believe the fire was intentionally set.
“Bet you stay home now you hypokrits (sic),” it read, according to the station.
Church burned to ground was suing over safer-at-home order, Mississippi officials say (Miami Herald, May 21, 2020)

[dann]

Coronavirus and faith and the Supreme Court:

Quote:

In the late-night decision, Barrett sided with her conservative colleagues in the dispute, while Chief Justice John Roberts joined the three liberal justices in dissent.
Last spring and summer, before the death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the court split 5-4 on similar cases out of California and Nevada, with Roberts and the liberals in the majority siding against houses of worship. Barrett was confirmed in October to take Ginsburg's seat.
In a 5-4 ruling, Supreme Court sides with religious groups in a dispute over Covid-19 restrictions in New York (CNN, Nov. 26, 2020)

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by dann

Coronavirus and faith and the Supreme Court:

Most disturbing but confusing in that there was reference to religious groups being discriminated against compared to other organisations. What other organisations are they referring to? Others that supply an essential device perhaps? Some church authorities as well Trump have called churches "essential services" before.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

What other organisations are they referring to?

Bicycle repair shops! And liquor stores.

Quote:

Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote his own concurrence -- joined by no other justice -- to explain his vote.
He said that other businesses such as bicycle repair shops, did not have similar restrictions.
"So, at least according to the Governor, it may be unsafe to go to church, but it is always fine to pick up another bottle of wine" or "shop for a new bike," Gorsuch wrote.

He seems to be very much into religion, but doesn't look like the kind of guy who ever took out his bike to ride down and pick up another bottle of wine, so he may be confused about the concept. Maybe he doesn't know how much time you spend in one of those places, congregating with other worshippers of the grape, praising it in song.
And Jesus wept.

[Bikewer]

An obvious solution is to let all the believers into the church of their choice... And lock the doors. They can infect each other to their heart’s content.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dann

Bicycle repair shops! And liquor stores.




He seems to be very much into religion, but doesn't look like the kind of guy who ever took out his bike to ride down and pick up another bottle of wine, so he may be confused about the concept. Maybe he doesn't know how much time you spend in one of those places, congregating with other worshippers of the grape, praising it in song.
And Jesus wept.

Hang on so churches are businesses just like bicycle repair shops?

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Darat

Hang on so churches are businesses just like bicycle repair shops?

Bicycle repair shops pay taxes.

[JayUtah]

Indeed, the gist of the concurring and dissenting opinions hovers around whether houses of worship are more like retail businesses or more like recreation and theater. Theaters are invariably closed, and the minority feels that houses of worship should be treated more like that. Some retail establishments are open -- and indeed some are alleged to allow unrestricted patronage. The new conservative majority feels that houses of worship should be in that category.

Indeed, all over the country -- not just in New York -- what makes a business "essential" has been the subject of heated debate. One person's essentials are another person's frivolous conveniences. (I would argue that an atheist's desire to be comforted by a single-malt scotch while hunkering down for the long, lonely winter is at least as important as sitting in a pew singing songs to Jeebus, and just as worthy of the protection of the law.) Moreover, since American politicians are increasingly beholden to business interests, whether local or global, there's the fear that such designations are not based entirely upon health expert recommendations.

Justice Sotomayor -- as usual -- offers the best insight into the majority's flawed reasoning: churches are more like theaters not because of the content of the experience, or in disregard of the Constitution, but because of the circumstances of patronage. My transaction to obtain a decent Glenfiddich requires all of five minutes' proximity to others, and requires saying practically nothing. This is quite different than a worship service that lasts for an hour or more, with people speaking and singing all in the same room. That's more like a theater, concert hall, or cinema. Just because the word "religion" comes up in some governmental order doesn't mean the First Amendment applies the sledgehammer of strict scrutiny every time.

Governor Cuomo's order was the perfect example of paying attention solely to the circumstances of disease transmission and disregarding whether the activity thus enjoined had a secular or religious purpose. The majority instead just waved its finger and declared religious activities to be categorically on par with some forms of retail, based on glittering, abstract appeals to the Constitution and no discussion of the evidence or circumstances.

[Pooneil]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Governor Cuomo's order was the perfect example of paying attention solely to the circumstances of disease transmission and disregarding whether the activity thus enjoined had a secular or religious purpose. The majority instead just waved its finger and declared religious activities to be categorically on par with some forms of retail, based on glittering, abstract appeals to the Constitution and no discussion of the evidence or circumstances.

I wouldn't say "solely" as it didn't take into account that houses of worship can be vastly different in important ways from one another, as can practices within them. So it has strict scrutiny problems.

It seems to me to be the time to become more circumspect on emergency declarations and to call for more rational support for mandates that vasty affect people's lives.

However, I agree that the Court was "very thin" on its support of the opinion.

Time to move to round three of the legal questions. Where we may get some more clarifications from both parties.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Pooneil

I wouldn't say "solely" as it didn't take into account that houses of worship can be vastly different in important ways from one another, as can practices within them. So it has strict scrutiny problems.

Good point. Thanks for bringing that up. The majority opinion actually has some constructive suggestions for more narrowly tailoring the restrictions to what might be available in each venue.

Justice Sotomayor argues that strict scrutiny shouldn't automatically apply simply because the order mentions religious institutions specifically. I'm on the bubble about that one. Executive Order 202.68 mentions that "houses of worship" have to limit occupancy. And it does occur in the context of who else has to cease in-person service or gatherings. There's some teeth to her argument that religious institutions are singled out in this list specifically to treat them more leniently than everything else on the list. But the Order only alludes to the difference between essential and non-essential services, and doesn't mention any essential business by name or category. So the argument of "singled out for special leniency" in the Order sidesteps a distinction that I think the plaintiffs want emphasized.

Quote:

It seems to me to be the time to become more circumspect on emergency declarations and to call for more rational support for mandates that vasty affect people's lives.

Both mandates and the lack of mandates affect people's lives. When extraordinary circumstances prevail, people's lives will be vastly affected either way. Contracting a preventable, life-threatening illness would qualify, I think, as a vast effect. Denial of the right to worship is also a vast effect. We grant government the role to arbitrate between rights and responsibilities as they affect groups of people. That has always included the mitigation of communicable diseases. Thankfully that only occasionally requires more tolerance than usual from the public. Normally another's exercise of the right to worship doesn't affect me in the least. Now it's conflated with the preservation of life. We can say it's an apples-and-oranges argument without diminishing the importance of either apples or oranges.

Quote:

Time to move to round three of the legal questions. Where we may get some more clarifications from both parties.

The debate will and should continue. Gov. Cuomo remains somewhat defiant. We'll see if this is just posturing, and whether he can work with the religious leaders in question to fashion a set of restrictions that satisfies all the concerns. I gather he still believes he's already done that.