It's All Your Fault You Evil Secularists

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why American Children Stopped Believing in God

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...ieving-in-god/

Quote:

It turns out that religiosity is usually determined very early in life. All the data suggest that, by and large, kids brought up in religious households stay religious and kids who aren’t, don’t. Consequently, childhood religiosity has been, and remains, the most important indicator of America’s religious trajectory. The story of religious decline in America is not the story of adults consciously rejecting the faith of their forefathers: It’s the story of each generation receiving a more secular upbringing than the generation preceding it. What accounts for this secularization of childhood over time? Taxpayer dollars.

[8enotto]

Yup, it works like a charm.

My son just did 1st Communion with no clue as to why mom said it was important. He tried to leave the ceremony early too.

Made me proud. He has rejected religion at age 10.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Why American Children Stopped Believing in God

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...ieving-in-god/

The interesting thing is that the article is acknowledging that the only way you can get people to accept religion is to get to them before they can think for themselves.

As adults, we are able to examine evidence, look at all sides, reason about what we know about the world, and history, and the way people think and behave. As adults, darned near zero people suddenly realize that if they didn't start going to church on Sunday they would end up in Hell.

[The Great Zaganza]

Nonsense.
Kids I know believe in way more Gods than just one (Thor, Loki, Zeus, Poseidon, etc.).
That makes them the most religious ever!

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The interesting thing is that the article is acknowledging that the only way you can get people to accept religion is to get to them before they can think for themselves.

As adults, we are able to examine evidence, look at all sides, reason about what we know about the world, and history, and the way people think and behave. As adults, darned near zero people suddenly realize that if they didn't start going to church on Sunday they would end up in Hell.

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

[Dave Rogers]

Job well done, if you ask me.

Dave

[Craig4]

So the problem is...?

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

you mean those court-ordered to attend 12-step programs?

[8enotto]

Last good stats I heard any 12 step program has about the same real recovery rate as going cold turkey. About 5%, I would assume the religion sticks equally.

[timhau]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

Acquired brain damage.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

They are those for whom "generally speaking" does not apply.

Hans

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

Be interesting if we can see some stats about this. I suspect the number of folk who "find God" later in their lives, would be quite small. I also suspect they may have had some conditioning in childhood, that they suppressed until it welled up in their later years. Such was the case with my brother who "saw the light" when he was 18.

[SteveAitch]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

Intimations of mortality - an excess of imagination, allowing them to see the forthcoming 'event' too clearly?

If you see what I mean.

[dann]

You should read the whole thing, including the moral of the story:

Quote:

The time has come for religious parents to take their children back from the state. It simply will not do anymore for faithful Americans to drop their sons and daughters off at the curbside every morning for the government to collect as if they were taking out the trash.
(...)
But the only real road to religious revival is the one that begins with each parent’s first step out of the public school’s doors.

The lack of religious indoctrination in school is to blame for the secularization, so the solution is religious schools!
Thank God this analysis is completely wrong!
I have a feeling the kids sent to those institutions will hate their parents for it.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Generally speaking, I agree. However, how does that account for people who "find God" later in their lives?

It doesn't, so obviously the previous statement is not 100% true.

My experience of such people is that most of them are "refinding God", as in they grew up Christian but never really believed, or maybe paid lip service to the belief but never gave it much thought. Later in life, usually after some emotional crisis, they latch onto belief in God as a means of getting them out of the crisis.

Of course, some exceptions apply.

[8enotto]

Originally Posted by dann

You should read the whole thing, including the moral of the story:

The lack of religious indoctrination in school is to blame for the secularization, so the solution is religious schools!
Thank God this analysis is completely wrong!
I have a feeling the kids sent to those institutions will hate their parents for it.

You would be quite correct in the kids forced into religious schools hating it.

My 3 younger siblings were not as good at dodging it as I was.

My two sisters kinda faked the church stuff enough to pass and my brother did a fairly straight up refusal to participate. He didn't give a ****.

Him getting back into a public school his last year was a nasty battle but he won.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Why American Children Stopped Believing in God

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...ieving-in-god/

It's noteworthy that the tone of the presentation is supporting all religious persuasions. This is somewhat contrary to the history we know about the harmony between different religions, even different sects of those religions.

[Beerina]

The fall of religiousity in Europe was tracked as government assumed the role religion had in caring for the sick, orphans, poor, and so on. Some of the very earliest writings on Christianity not in the Bible itself discuss how attractive it was to converts because of the selfless leading by example in those exact things. No concern even for one's own health when caring for the diseased sick.

As such, politics replaces religion in all but name. You do all these things not for Jesus, but for whatever loudmouth demagogue of the week is yabbering at you.

The form remains the same: gather as many followers as possible so you can seize the ring of power. Then you no longer need rely on mere persuasion to get more followers, but can force everybody to your god. Those at the top continue to live the sweet life for waving their hands and chanting pleasing words, and somehow their family coffers mysteriously fill.

Freedom disappears either way. Freedom is still the goal, and we will not fully have it until the last politician is choked with the entrails of the last priest.

We live in a very religious society. It just doesn't mention God anymore. People still rage, as ordered by their priests, to treat the lay people on the other side as hellbound dupes lead by actively evil demons.

[Resume]

Quote:

We live in a very religious society. It just doesn't mention God anymore.

Jesus Christ, how long have I been asleep? When did this happen?

[Norman Alexander]

Every household must, by law, have two nativity scenes set up on their front lawn at Christmas. One for them, and the other for a tragically poor secular family. It will help make it more Christian if they are decorated with thousands of flashing lights, just like it happened in ancient Bethlehem.

[Thor 2]

Excerpt from article kindly linked by Gord_in_Toronto:

Quote:

Stone’s research helps us to understand the decline of religious faith in America over the past 60 years. Secularization is, to be sure, a hugely overdetermined development in American history, and just about everyone has a theory about how it’s happened and why. Religious conservatives would probably cite the loosening of the country’s morals that began in the ’60s and ’70s.

So. The loosening of the countries morals led to the decline in religiosity. Simultaneously, the decline in religious belief led to the loosening of morals. This is the kind of circular reasoning that resonates with the religious.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Excerpt from article kindly linked by Gord_in_Toronto:




So. The loosening of the countries morals led to the decline in religiosity. Simultaneously, the decline in religious belief led to the loosening of morals. This is the kind of circular reasoning that resonates with the religious.

It is a positive feedback loop.
1. Due to a reduction in religious beliefs certain restrictions that exist only to please the religious are removed.
2. When the universe does not collapse due to these changes religious beliefs are reduced.
3. Go to step 1.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Every household must, by law, have two nativity scenes set up on their front lawn at Christmas. One for them, and the other for a tragically poor secular family. It will help make it more Christian if they are decorated with thousands of flashing lights, just like it happened in ancient Bethlehem.

Oh *slaps forehead* the word was "NATIVITY!" I always thought it's supposed to represent how she got pregnant. (Let's just say, google, "splash conception.") As I explained. To quite a number of police officers on my lawn

You'd think they could just send one or two to sort it out, but that's nanny state and tax money at work, folks

[Darat]

I always find it amusing that countries (“western world”) with established churches seem to be the ones that are more non-religious or out and out atheist.

[Pope130]

Originally Posted by Darat

I always find it amusing that countries (“western world”) with established churches seem to be the ones that are more non-religious or out and out atheist.

Perhaps this is an indication that governments are not very good at running religions.

A possible reason for this is that an overly structured state religion can't respond quickly to market trends, resulting in loss of customers.

The US model of free market religion can respond better by modifying beliefs to accommodate sales trends, or launching whole new brands. "Free Range Gods!"

Edit to add: It occurs that it is also possible that state religions are badly run deliberately to encourage secularism, in which case: Good job Europeans!

[Lukraak_Sisser]

A lot of state religions in Europe were a result of the wars of religion in the 1600's and were at least partially instated to prevent that bloodshed from occurring again.

Those fanatics that REALLY wanted to be free to kill those that disagreed with them emigrated to the America's.
Sorry guys.

[Pope130]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

A lot of state religions in Europe were a result of the wars of religion in the 1600's and were at least partially instated to prevent that bloodshed from occurring again.

Those fanatics that REALLY wanted to be free to kill those that disagreed with them emigrated to the America's.
Sorry guys.

I'm familiar with that from family history. I'm descended from Susana Martin, one of the last Salem women executed as witches, and related to Sarah Good, one of the first.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

Last good stats I heard any 12 step program has about the same real recovery rate as going cold turkey. About 5%, I would assume the religion sticks equally.

I think an assessment like that requires a little more detail. Do you mean literally "cold turkey" only, or more generally attempting to quit without a program? It seems like "cold turkey" is too specific a method to be the default contrasting statistic to AA. There are other ways to attempt it without AA.

As well, you might get differing results based on how you define recovery. Still sober after a year? Three? Ten? What about someone who's had some relapses but still mostly sober?

Should we include on the "AA" side, other programs that include a relationship with a sponsor (which I consider the true signature element)?

Which is just to say that it may not be easy to paint such a clear picture. It could be the statistics you looked at went into all of that. I'd be interested in reading it.

[8enotto]

Yup, cold turkey as in no program or organization behind the person changing thier lives.

It was on Penn and Teller BS show when they did a part on these AA and similar church run addiction programs.
They had done the research and found the magic percentage off a government study, and not from the programs themselves. Elimination of the bias.

My own life experience reflects thier ideas.

[arthwollipot]

In my understanding, where 12-step programmes work at all, they mainly work with people who already have a highly religious worldview. They're not very good at converting nonbelievers.

[Tassman]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Why American Children Stopped Believing in God

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...ieving-in-god/

I agree with that. We are programmed by genes and social pressures, and take our decisions either deterministically or randomly – but not freely. We are largely what we have been acculturated to be.

[Norman Alexander]

The implication from the story is that "religious education in public schools is good and necessary", and thus the inverse is therefore "bad". And that things used to be "good" before religious education was removed.

As far as I can tell, this is basic simplistic propaganda. I would wonder how much the writer thinks it is true, and who he is preaching to. (He appears young...)

My insta-Google search just now says religious instruction was removed about 1963 as the result of a certain court case. That was nigh on 60 years ago now. And yet somehow the USA has soldiered on reasonably successfully since then.

What this author seems to fail to explain is that US public schools are not religion-free. Students are taught ABOUT religion, in many different ways. And students are free to express their religion as well, within certain bounds of propriety, I gather. So it is not like teachers patrol the grounds and classrooms looking for recalcitrants mumbling the Lord's Prayer into their lockers, or holding secretive prayer meetings under the bleachers.

Instead, the obvious deduction is that increased education in a wider variety of skills, and more exposure to cultures, thoughts and technologies, has acted as a vaccination against the more restrictive religious teachings. People like this author simply cannot allow people to question religious instruction. Not content with holding their own views to themselves, they want to impose them on others. More simply: they want to be the Thought Police.

But this isn't new, by any means.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The implication from the story is that "religious education in public schools is good and necessary", and thus the inverse is therefore "bad". And that things used to be "good" before religious education was removed.

As far as I can tell, this is basic simplistic propaganda. I would wonder how much the writer thinks it is true, and who he is preaching to. (He appears young...)

My insta-Google search just now says religious instruction was removed about 1963 as the result of a certain court case. That was nigh on 60 years ago now. And yet somehow the USA has soldiered on reasonably successfully since then.

What this author seems to fail to explain is that US public schools are not religion-free. Students are taught ABOUT religion, in many different ways. And students are free to express their religion as well, within certain bounds of propriety, I gather. So it is not like teachers patrol the grounds and classrooms looking for recalcitrants mumbling the Lord's Prayer into their lockers, or holding secretive prayer meetings under the bleachers.

Instead, the obvious deduction is that increased education in a wider variety of skills, and more exposure to cultures, thoughts and technologies, has acted as a vaccination against the more restrictive religious teachings. People like this author simply cannot allow people to question religious instruction. Not content with holding their own views to themselves, they want to impose them on others. More simply: they want to be the Thought Police.

But this isn't new, by any means.

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

That's why the whole "Oh but you see all religions are trying to say the same thing but are just looking at it differently..." stuff ticks me off so much. It's not just pandering rationalization, it's hilariously false and dangerous.

Penn Jillette said, and I agree, that intellectually he respects fundamentalist more than wishy-washy "Oh we all make our own path" people.

He said something to the effect of "If you say 'I think the world works this way' and I say 'No you are wrong the world works this way' that is how we get to truth. 'Oh you see nobody is wrong, everybody is just going their own way' is how you speak to a child, and I bristle at that."

[Galaxie]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

Agreed. I went to a Lutheran school from Kindergarten to 8th grade. All I was ever told is that Martin Luther was right, and everyone that came before or after was wrong. So right there, I was like, "Wait, why are there still Catholics then? And what about these Mormons who come to my door?"

Then I went to a public high school and the first history class had a unit on religions. Oops! Imagine my surprise to find out Christianity isn't anything special.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

From personal experience as a child -- at least on step on the road to "losing" your religion is learning that there are other religions.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

That's why the whole "Oh but you see all religions are trying to say the same thing but are just looking at it differently..." stuff ticks me off so much. It's not just pandering rationalization, it's hilariously false and dangerous.

Penn Jillette said, and I agree, that intellectually he respects fundamentalist more than wishy-washy "Oh we all make our own path" people.

He said something to the effect of "If you say 'I think the world works this way' and I say 'No you are wrong the world works this way' that is how we get to truth. 'Oh you see nobody is wrong, everybody is just going their own way' is how you speak to a child, and I bristle at that."

Yes and yes.

I am continually stunned by the way the religious just will not address this issue. There are different religions and the one you are stuck with, happens to be depends on where you were born. Those who try to blend the religions and make them somehow complimentary, are pathetic. Jesus is the only way ........ but ??

[8enotto]

There is a program on our version of the pbs channels that once a week does a respectful, if theology neutral show of a different church type in Mexico.

The have done Scientology, deep fundy types, a gay Catholic type church and others over the last year.

The more off the wall loose types had no qualms about editing the same bible all the christian types use to casually not mention stuff that others know is sinful. Happy clappy gay catholics in a church with a rainbow on the wall in place of a crucifix. Saying all the same basic things as the fundy types except they are going to hell for a mortal sin.

And the other saying they are without doubt.

Nobody wants to be wrong, but if they can get a person to become religious they probably can fill his head with ideas to become their version of the one true church.
But the minds closed to religious belief at all are useless to them.

In this it makes sense to get the mark to open to the idea of any religious belief then convince them yours is the best version.

Its how my dad tried to pull us from perceived catholic to his fundy beliefs as teens.
But both parents telling the kids the other is dead wrong, and neither able to evidence how theirs was so right made 3 of us lazy atheists, one a mix of Lutheran and Jewish, and the oldest stayed catholic.

For some its important work to save souls. For others its a pain in the backside to have to deal with them at all.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

There is a program on our version of the pbs channels that once a week does a respectful, if theology neutral show of a different church type in Mexico.

The have done Scientology, deep fundy types, a gay Catholic type church and others over the last year.

The more off the wall loose types had no qualms about editing the same bible all the christian types use to casually not mention stuff that others know is sinful. Happy clappy gay catholics in a church with a rainbow on the wall in place of a crucifix. Saying all the same basic things as the fundy types except they are going to hell for a mortal sin.

And the other saying they are without doubt.

As an evil secularist, I can never understand the minds of the faithful. The faithful who stand condemned by scripture, and yet try to mould the religion, that clearly has them plummeting to damnation, into a modified form that embraces them. It sure beats me.

Happy clappy gay Catholics? Jesus Christ in a tutu perhaps? I wonder about Francis's take on this. No not Francis so much I suppose, but his more conservative frocked entourage.

Quote:

Nobody wants to be wrong, but if they can get a person to become religious they probably can fill his head with ideas to become their version of the one true church.
But the minds closed to religious belief at all are useless to them.

In this it makes sense to get the mark to open to the idea of any religious belief then convince them yours is the best version.

So you think if faith is there in some form, the person is more susceptible to be converted to another faith, in line with that of the converter?

Quote:

Its how my dad tried to pull us from perceived catholic to his fundy beliefs as teens.
But both parents telling the kids the other is dead wrong, and neither able to evidence how theirs was so right made 3 of us lazy atheists, one a mix of Lutheran and Jewish, and the oldest stayed catholic.

For some its important work to save souls. For others its a pain in the backside to have to deal with them at all.

Thanks for your interesting glimpses, into your religiously mixed up family 8enotto. I can imagine some chaotic scenes.

[8enotto]

The mind of the faithful seems to need guidance where the secular mind finds solutions in the real world. No magic or almighty forces required.
I was told by a deeply rooted fundy guy that those solutions are deception by the devil and we must pray for guidance to be on a true path.

I didn't continue the conversation from there for just knowing it dead ended. He knew THE TRUTH and that was it.

My dad was converted to six exclusive apocolyptic churches over time and the key thing to him was that but a small number of faithful would get to heaven. Always under 10,000, after all god must like only the most true to him, not those that came close.
He lived an austere life and spent his days in bible study after he retired. At least he wasn't a hypocrite.
If anyone would know how to slide from one set of details to another without upsetting his core faith it was him. He had no shame is applying the tactics to anyone that would listen to him talk.


Chaotic moments to epic battles of agreements made decades ago being violated or being unfair. Depending on your side.
Most of the time an uneasy peace with everyone avoiding certian topics at any cost.
Twenty odd years of that ended in a divorce that gave everyone but my younger siblings freedom. They had to fight three more years to get freedom from religion.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

The mind of the faithful seems to need guidance where the secular mind finds solutions in the real world. No magic or almighty forces required.

As well as that perhaps the faithful seem to crave purpose, where as the secularist is comfortable in the absence of such. I have discussed this with my late brother, who was incredulous at my lack of need to want to know why.

Quote:

I was told by a deeply rooted fundy guy that those solutions are deception by the devil and we must pray for guidance to be on a true path.

I didn't continue the conversation from there for just knowing it dead ended. He knew THE TRUTH and that was it.

The smug certainty of these guys, that they are indeed being guided on the true path and not deceived by the Devil, is impossible to dent. They just know is the answer and the veracity of their certainty cannot be measured by any means.

Quote:

My dad was converted to six exclusive apocolyptic churches over time and the key thing to him was that but a small number of faithful would get to heaven. Always under 10,000, after all god must like only the most true to him, not those that came close.
He lived an austere life and spent his days in bible study after he retired. At least he wasn't a hypocrite.
If anyone would know how to slide from one set of details to another without upsetting his core faith it was him. He had no shame is applying the tactics to anyone that would listen to him talk.


Chaotic moments to epic battles of agreements made decades ago being violated or being unfair. Depending on your side.
Most of the time an uneasy peace with everyone avoiding certian topics at any cost.
Twenty odd years of that ended in a divorce that gave everyone but my younger siblings freedom. They had to fight three more years to get freedom from religion.

There may be some truth to the belief that marrying outside your faith is not a good idea.