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Old 16th November 2018, 12:10 PM   #81
baron
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You've been provided with a source for over 3500 neo-nazi attacks, resulting in several hundred injuries, in Germany in 2016 of which 0 appeared in Europol's statistics. As a counter you've been provided with a source for 16 left-wing attacks, resulting in 0 injuries, in Italy in the same year of which 16 appeared in Europol's statistics. That's 0% vs 100%. Europol itself doesn't seem all that shy to state that they don't consider these (ie neo-nazi) attacks to be terrorism so are not included.
In that case they are not terrorism. What's so difficult to understand? Only terrorist incidents are included in terrorist statistics. Incidents which are not terrorist incidents are not recorded. The definition of 'terrorism', which is applied to all groups, might not be yours but that just means yours is wrong. What do you want me to say? Stop being wrong.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And yeah I'm sure that the fact that many neo-nazi attacks originate from within the State forces (another failed one yesterday) has nothing whatsoever to do with Europol's interpretation of what should or should not qualify for inclusion in terrorism statistics.
You're right, nothing whatsoever to do with it.

We have two options.

1)There is a massive intelligence scandal in which Europol and other intelligence agencies have faked the crime statistics to such a staggering degree that they give a diametrically opposed view of terrorism in Europe compared with reality, in order to play down the terror threat of neo-Nazis and the far right.

2) You include any old crime that comes to mind based on what you think should be the definition of 'terrorism', specifically 'hate crimes' committed by the far right (whilst conveniently leaving out hate crimes committed by anybody else).

I'm going with 2).

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Either argue your case for why this discrepancy exists in the statistics or admit that your statistics don't reflect reality.
My statistics. LOL! Perhaps you mean the official statistics that nobody but you disputes.

If you want to debate on an adult level then you need to cite a set of statistics presented by a trustworthy authority. Making stuff up at random doesn't really cut it.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
In that case they are not terrorism.
Define "terrorism" and show that the statistics hold.

Quote:
If you want to debate on an adult level then you need to cite a set of statistics presented by a trustworthy authority.
Why should I if you don't? Oh right, you think your source is trustworthy...LOL!
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:53 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Define "terrorism" and show that the statistics hold.
Why would I waste my time doing that? If you imagine that the foremost authority on European terrorism doesn't know what the word 'terrorism' means then nothing I or anybody can say will correct your thought.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Why should I if you don't? Oh right, you think your source is trustworthy...LOL!
Yes, I think Europol is a trustworthy source for terrorism statistics in Europe. What's your source? Right, you don't have one, you just read about a bunch of crimes and decided Europol are at the centre of an international conspiracy to conceal the truth about a Nazi terrorist uprising. God help us all.
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Old 16th November 2018, 07:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why would I waste my time doing that? If you imagine that the foremost authority on European terrorism doesn't know what the word 'terrorism' means then nothing I or anybody can say will correct your thought.
I already said this but just a "I can't argue my case" would have sufficed.

Quote:
Yes, I think Europol is a trustworthy source for terrorism statistics in Europe.
I don't care what you think, I care about what you can prove - which seems to be exactly nothing other than expressing your pure faith in the accuracy of some dubious statistics.

Quote:
What's your source? Right, you don't have one, you just read about a bunch of crimes and decided Europol are at the centre of an international conspiracy to conceal the truth about a Nazi terrorist uprising. God help us all.


ETA: and just to be clear on this, I'm not claiming any "conspiracy" but just pointing out the obvious biases involved. Just a couple of months ago the head of German domestic intelligence was forced to resign for his sympathy for and defense of violent neo-nazi groups. And that's only a mere 6 years after his predecessor was also forced to resign for the same and even going so far as to destroy documents implicating neo-nazi groups in various terrorist attacks which were then blamed on immigrants. But yeah, obviously we should all have pure faith in these people telling us that there is barely any right-wing terrorism. And again I'm absolutely sure that the fact that many neo-nazi terrorist groups and attacks actually originate from within the State security apparatus has absolutely nothing to do with these curious interpretations of what exactly should or should not be included in the terrorism statistics.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 16th November 2018 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 17th November 2018, 02:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I already said this but just a "I can't argue my case" would have sufficed.
Twist my words as you like, I'd no more take time to contend your premise than I would argue with a flat earther.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I don't care what you think, I care about what you can prove - which seems to be exactly nothing other than expressing your pure faith in the accuracy of some dubious statistics.
Just stop and listen to yourself. You're the one advocating the loony position not adopted by a single authority or expert so it's up to you to provide the evidence. And evidence doesn't consist of you saying there have been loads of crimes you think should be termed terrorist but weren't (selective crimes, of course, all similar crimes by non-Nazis are still not terrorism because bias).

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ETA: and just to be clear on this, I'm not claiming any "conspiracy"
Then you don't even understand your own argument (for want of a better word). For Europol to publish this information year-on-year and for member states to accept the data without any protest then we're talking not just of a conspiracy, but of an international conspiracy of vast proportions.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
but just pointing out the obvious biases involved. Just a couple of months ago the head of German domestic intelligence was forced to resign for his sympathy for and defense of violent neo-nazi groups. And that's only a mere 6 years after his predecessor was also forced to resign for the same and even going so far as to destroy documents implicating neo-nazi groups in various terrorist attacks which were then blamed on immigrants.
You do realise that Europol is not just one bloke in an office, right?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
But yeah, obviously we should all have pure faith in these people telling us that there is barely any right-wing terrorism. And again I'm absolutely sure that the fact that many neo-nazi terrorist groups and attacks actually originate from within the State security apparatus has absolutely nothing to do with these curious interpretations of what exactly should or should not be included in the terrorism statistics.
Maybe start a thread in CT where, thankfully, I don't visit.
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Old 17th November 2018, 05:53 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
{...}
You refused to argue your case - or more likely are unable to and hence resort to empty blustering, your statistics have been shown to have serious discrepancies (almost-identical attacks get included or excluded based on who committed them), ergo your statistics have been rejected and uke2se's contention is upheld that right-wing terrorism far outweighs any other sort in Europe.
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:08 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
ergo your statistics have been rejected and uke2se's contention is upheld
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No need for self-portraits, like I said multiple times now just a "I can't argue my case" would have sufficed.
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Old 17th November 2018, 08:10 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In Europe in the 70's and early 80's Left wing violence of the Baader Meinhoff/Red Brigade variety was easily the most dangerous.

The most dangerous for whom? What do you you base that idea on? Nothing?
Oktoberfest bombing
Bologna massacre
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Old 17th November 2018, 10:33 AM   #90
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So, dudalb, at this point I think that it is time for you to come clean. You like to present yourself as a centrist, and for this purpose it seems to be very important to you to always point out that "Left wing violence (...) easily (is) the most dangerous."

And you are so biased that you seem to stick to this fantasy of yours even when it is documented that you are wrong, wrong and wrong!

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Did you actually buy into that obvious lie?!! Karl Marx wouldn't dream of saying a stupid thing like that. (And by the way, his best and most loyal friend was a capitalist!
Quote investigator: "The Capitalists Will Sell Us the Rope with Which We Will Hang Them"


Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
How come you're so anxious to kill people?
It's an old Marxist custom....

No, it isn't, and it never was.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am also getting amused by a poster here who constanly tries to explain why Karl Marx did not really mean what Karl Marx said.
How interesting! Who is it?

That would be me, I guess, but dudalb's got it all wrong, of course. I was merely pointing out that an obviously fake quotation attributed to Marx was actually made up by an anti-communist. No wonder dudalb's offended by a post like that! He would have preferred to believe that it was written by Marx, and I bet that when he sees it in the future, he'll be the last person to point out the lie. Even now, he insists that the lie isn't a lie: "... why Karl Marx did not really mean what Karl Marx said." It should have been: "... why Karl Marx did not mean what some anti-communist made up and presented as a Lenin (!) quotation."
Liars gonna lie ...

What offended him in this thread, however, was probably Venomís post #145 pointing out that some people watch the Venezuelan tragedy with glee because they don't see what's behind it, the fluctuations of the price of oil (always the Achilles' heel of the Venezuelan economy) and how it is affecting Venezuelans now, but instead consider it to be the proof that socialism - and with socialism even "socialist or social democratic advances in Western democracies" - doesn't work.

But dudalb is probably even more offended because I pointed out some of the lies that Fox Business News host Trish Regan presented in a recent segment comparing Venezuela to Denmark. That the Danish ambassador in the USA instead compared Denmark to the USA in a fact sheet probably didn't make dudalb happier ...

You know, it's a little like when Cubans try to emigrate to the USA: It's proof positive that socialism doesn't work! When other Latin Americans try to do the same thing, however, it's because they are rapists and drug smugglers ...

Why is that so, dudalb? Are you ever going to stop lying about left-wing violence?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th November 2018, 10:52 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So, dudalb, at this point I think that it is time for you to come clean. You like to present yourself as a centrist, and for this purpose it seems to be very important to you to always point out that "Left wing violence (...) easily (is) the most dangerous."

And you are so biased that you seem to stick to this fantasy of yours even when it is documented that you are wrong, wrong and wrong!







Why is that so, dudalb? Are you ever going to stop lying about left-wing violence?
Do you have figures to back up your assertion? You know, something like this:

Quote:
Leftist extremists were responsible for three-fourths of the officially
designated acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s. From an international perspective,
of the 13,858 people who died between 1988 and 1998 in attacks committed by the 10
most active terrorist groups in the world, 74 percent were killed by leftist organizations.
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Old 17th November 2018, 11:17 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you have figures to back up your assertion? You know, something like this:

Yes, I have figures, links and documentation in place. It's all contained in my post, links included.
I don't know why you think that a reference to a report about "acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s" is relevant when dudalb's claim was about alleged left-wing violence in Europe.

Take a look at this - and notice the color coding: Terrorism in Europe: Deadliest attacks (Wikipedia).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th November 2018, 12:51 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I have figures, links and documentation in place. It's all contained in my post, links included.
I don't know why you think that a reference to a report about "acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s" is relevant when dudalb's claim was about alleged left-wing violence in Europe.
Do you know what the word 'international' means? Hint: it doesn't mean 'in America'.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Take a look at this - and notice the color coding: Terrorism in Europe: Deadliest attacks (Wikipedia).
So what? A selection of a few dozen attacks from many thousands. The number of terrorist attacks by ETA alone is in the hundreds and they killed 829 people. A small selection of about 180 attacks is listed here.
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Old 17th November 2018, 02:03 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you know what the word 'international' means? Hint: it doesn't mean 'in America'.

Yes, I know what international means, but you don't seem to know what Europe means:

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In Europe in the 70's and early 80's Left wing violence of the Baader Meinhoff/Red Brigade variety was easily the most dangerous.

Originally Posted by baron View Post
So what? A selection of a few dozen attacks from many thousands. The number of terrorist attacks by ETA alone is in the hundreds and they killed 829 people. A small selection of about 180 attacks is listed here.

You can find many of the ETA attacks listed in my link to the Wikipedia page: Terrorism in Europe: Deadliest attacks. They are color coded yellow for Nationalism/Seperatism.
So what's the point you're trying to make?!

I think that you should go back to post 89 and start again.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 17th November 2018, 04:02 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No need for self-portraits, like I said multiple times now just a "I can't argue my case" would have sufficed.
Why would you say this? This isn't funny at all.
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Old 17th November 2018, 04:03 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I have figures, links and documentation in place. It's all contained in my post, links included.
I don't know why you think that a reference to a report about "acts of terrorism in America in the 1980s" is relevant when dudalb's claim was about alleged left-wing violence in Europe.

Take a look at this - and notice the color coding: Terrorism in Europe: Deadliest attacks (Wikipedia).
The list linked is not the least bit exhaustive. Here's a recent example of a "leftist" terrorist attack in Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sb-arkhangelsk
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:20 AM   #97
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Yes, you have a link to news about a terrorist attack in Europe.
And so what? What is it that you don't understand about "deadliest attacks"?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th November 2018, 06:50 AM   #98
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Since when has Russia been in Europe?
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Old 18th November 2018, 08:01 AM   #99
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I don't know for how long, but maybe since Pangea!
Archangel, the site of Baylor's alleged ""leftist" terrorist attack" is in the European part of Russia.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th November 2018, 08:17 AM   #100
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From a continental point of view, a bit of it maybe in Europe.

You'd have to ask Vlad if he thinks it's European.
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Old 18th November 2018, 08:18 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
From a continental point of view, a bit of it maybe in Europe.

You'd have to ask Vlad if he thinks it's European.
He doesn't get to decide.
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Old 18th November 2018, 01:19 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Since when has Russia been in Europe?
Since at least 1582.
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Old 19th November 2018, 02:04 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, you have a link to news about a terrorist attack in Europe.
And so what? What is it that you don't understand about "deadliest attacks"?
So leftists are incompetent. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered a threat. They clearly are. Like that brainwashed English guy who tried to assassinate presidential candidate Donald Trump. His mental health suffered from reading leftist rags and pseudointellectual reddit threads.
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Old 24th November 2018, 11:49 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So leftists are incompetent. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered a threat. They clearly are. Like that brainwashed English guy who tried to assassinate presidential candidate Donald Trump. His mental health suffered from reading leftist rags and pseudointellectual reddit threads.
This thread is about right-wing terrorism.

If you want to discuss left-wing terrorism, start a thread for that, comrade.
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Old 24th November 2018, 11:53 PM   #105
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Baylor enters thread on the Tour de France: "Hey guys, why aren't we talking about the Superbowl? We really should be talking about the Superbowl! Guys?"
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Old 25th November 2018, 02:00 AM   #106
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Try asking him a simple question. That always makes dudalb disappear.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th November 2018, 02:43 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Baylor enters thread on the Tour de France: "Hey guys, why aren't we talking about the Superbowl? We really should be talking about the Superbowl! Guys?"
Yeah, kind of like when I cauterised the thread with facts in Post 3 and then people started talking about everything but the topic. I didn't see you protest then.
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Old 25th November 2018, 06:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yeah, kind of like when I cauterised the thread with facts in Post 3 and then people started talking about everything but the topic. I didn't see you protest then.
Your "facts" were based on dubious statistics, you've been asked to support your statistics and explain the large discrepancies and you've been unable to do so. Your "facts" are hence rejected.
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Old 25th November 2018, 07:49 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Your "facts" were based on dubious statistics, you've been asked to support your statistics and explain the large discrepancies and you've been unable to do so. Your "facts" are hence rejected.
No, the facts are not rejected by any authority whatsoever. Only a few conspiracy theorists on a forum dispute them and they can be safely discounted.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:44 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, the facts are not rejected by any authority whatsoever. Only a few conspiracy theorists on a forum dispute them and they can be safely discounted.
Just because your dubious "facts" are not rejected by your equally dubious "authorities" doesn't mean anything. You've failed to account for the glaring discrepancies in your data and that's the end of your so-called "facts."

ETA: These authorities who decide on which acts constitute terrorism are the interior ministries, specifically domestic intelligence services. These services have long-term links with extreme-right terrorist groups (see Operation Gladio for example) and are known to cover for them such as destroying evidence showing the involvement of extreme-right groups in terrorist attacks so as to blame immigrants. This appeal to authority is about as valid as appealing to the authority of the KKK to support the "fact" that the KKK has never done anything wrong.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 25th November 2018 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 25th November 2018, 09:49 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Just because your dubious "facts" are not rejected by your equally dubious "authorities" doesn't mean anything. You've failed to account for the glaring discrepancies in your data and that's the end of your so-called "facts."
Riiiight.
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Old 25th November 2018, 10:17 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Riiiight.
Yes, right. Heck even the European Parliament has adopted a resolution deploring "neo-fascist groups have taken the lives of thousands of people of all kinds" and the "collusion between political leaders, political parties and law enforcement with neo-fascists and neo-Nazis" and "impunity with which neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups operate."

But yeah I'm sure that this collusion in no way extends to letting them off the hook for terrorism. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that the organizations actually involved in such collusion (domestic intelligence services) are also the ones which determine which attacks constitute terrorism (and hence end up in those statistics you keep flaunting around) and which don't.
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"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 25th November 2018 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 25th November 2018, 11:01 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes, right. Heck even the European Parliament has adopted a resolution deploring "neo-fascist groups have taken the lives of thousands of people of all kinds" and the "collusion between political leaders, political parties and law enforcement with neo-fascists and neo-Nazis" and "impunity with which neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups operate."

But yeah I'm sure that this collusion in no way extends to letting them off the hook for terrorism. I'm sure it's entirely coincidental that the organizations actually involved in such collusion (domestic intelligence services) are also the ones which determine which attacks constitute terrorism (and hence end up in those statistics you keep flaunting around) and which don't.
You appear to have missed out where the European Parliament accuse its own law enforcement agency of wholesale fabrication of the terrorism figures or even states anything remotely pertinent to your wild accusation. Try again.
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