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12th December 2018, 02:07 AM | #561 |
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What I got from this is the complete failure of the officer to manage a difficult situation; it should be a learning opportunity. A minor issue was turned into a major one.
The officer in the second stop was obviously angry, but as a professional he should be calm and in control. What he should not have done is start off shouting then reach in and grab / grope a mother in from of her children. Help was on its way he should have kept her talking. Then he lied, he said he just wanted to talk, she got out to talk then he told her to turn round presumably to 'cuff her. The officer did threaten the children with his taser rather than his gun which was good. The most sensible action was when the family locked themselves in the car away from the angry armed man. That was an opportunity to pause and reconsider and wait for other officers to turn up. Once there were three cars there he should have then calmed down; instead he escalated swearing at the children, and smashing in the window. The officer opening fire on a car with children in was imho criminally dangerous. There was no way opening fire could have improved the situation. Yes the mother behaved badly, but the LEO is the professional, he knows what is happening, he is not a panicked mother with a car full of hysterical children, scared that her or her children will be killed. |
12th December 2018, 03:12 AM | #562 |
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The Brazilian police are even worse than the US police, your tu quo que argument is a fallacy.
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"Nothing is more vexing to foreigners than Americans’ belief that America is a shining city on a hill — a place apart where a better way of life exists, one to which all other peoples should aspire." Slagging off Brazil as a way to ignore your own policing issues is you trying to maintain the idea that the USA is what we should all aspire to. Or will you admit the US police are in a terrible state compared to the rest of the Western World? |
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12th December 2018, 03:37 AM | #563 |
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He needs to be reminded he will not always be a police officer. Will he who now demands compliance no matter what, be willing to submit no matter what when he become a civilian again?
He also needs reminding his mother is a civilian and should she comply no matter what? Will he accept her being shot if she does not sufficiently comply? |
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12th December 2018, 04:52 AM | #564 |
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12th December 2018, 05:14 AM | #565 |
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12th December 2018, 05:19 AM | #566 |
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12th December 2018, 05:35 AM | #567 |
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12th December 2018, 06:01 AM | #568 |
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12th December 2018, 06:10 AM | #569 |
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12th December 2018, 06:33 AM | #570 |
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12th December 2018, 06:34 AM | #571 |
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Exactly this. As I have said elsewhere, the police are the ones with the authority, the power, and the training. If our expectation after providing them all of that is that they can act like an offended teenager then we have failed.
So ******* what if the mother acted badly? That does not in itself justify every forceful reaction; it requires an exercise in restraint (of the self-discipline kind, not the restrain-the-perp kind). Use of force is an escalating scale. Physical threat A requires Physical response B and so on. What we see in videos shown on this thread is that escalation happens when there is an emotional threat instead. |
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12th December 2018, 07:29 AM | #572 |
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I've said before my problem is not that I hate the police, it's that I apparently have too much respect for the police, and consequently my expectations for them are too high. I expect them to behave in a manner to protect and serve, and to do their job well, and when those among them screw up, to do what they can to try to correct the mistakes and prevent more from happening.
That, according to some, appears to be too much to ask. |
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12th December 2018, 07:53 AM | #573 |
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12th December 2018, 07:55 AM | #574 |
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12th December 2018, 09:13 AM | #575 |
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No duty to protect the public stems from a case many years ago where the court determined the responding officers at a home that had been broken into but would not go in to check for criminals in the house had the choice to do that and were not required to. I have no intention of trying to locate that decision but it was published in a newspaper in Florida which means it had to be after 1990 as that was when we moved to Florida.
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12th December 2018, 09:20 AM | #576 |
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Warren v. District of Columbia. The disconnect between the above (if you've never read the facts of the case, peruse the wikipedia entry and feel extremely sick about the whole thing, it really is horrifying) and the fact that LEO's get massive leaway to defend themselves against imagined attacks is abhorrent. |
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12th December 2018, 09:29 AM | #577 |
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Warren V. District of Columbia is one of those cases I'm surprised people aren't more outraged about.
Added to that the fact that "Failure to / Refusing to Assist A Police Officer" or some similar stand alone law or language written into broader "Hindering an investigation" laws or something that operates on that same functional level exists on the Federal and pretty much every state/local level that I can find and you have this wonderfully unfair world where we a citizenry are legally required to assist police officers who aren't legally required to protect us. So we have this weird legal landscape where a cop and me could be walking down the street, come upon a crime in progress, the cop orders me to help him and I'm in the legal wrong if I refuse but the cop isn't in the legal wrong if he just walks past the crime and does nothing. |
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12th December 2018, 09:30 AM | #578 |
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My favorite is the cops who ran and hid while a guy was getting stabbed on the subway and it was up to the victim to subdue the attacker. The cops subsequently were hailed as heroes of course.
"In the spring of 2012, Joseph Lozito, who was brutally stabbed and "grievously wounded, deeply slashed around the head and neck", sued police for negligence in failing to render assistance to him as he was being attacked by Gelman.[21][22][23] Lozito told reporters that he decided to file the lawsuit after allegedly learning from "a grand-jury member" that NYPD officer Terrance Howell testified that he hid from Gelman before and while Lozito was being attacked because Howell thought Gelman had a gun.[24][25] In response to the suit, attorneys for the City of New York argued that police had no duty to protect Lozito or any other person from Gelman.[24] On July 25, 2013, Judge Margaret Chan dismissed Lozito's suit, stating that while Lozito's account of the attack rang true and appeared "highly credible", Chan agreed that police had "no special duty" to protect Lozito.[21][22][26] Lozito later gave an account of the aftermath[27] to Cracked.com and narrated a video, offering his perspective of the event and as a warning to others involved in similar situations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksim..._spree#Victims The basic rule is that cops can do no wrong. |
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12th December 2018, 09:32 AM | #579 |
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12th December 2018, 12:55 PM | #581 |
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12th December 2018, 01:25 PM | #582 |
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Not a tu quoque fallacy. I used Brazilian police to debunk your fallacious argument that Americans "holding the gun in high esteem" and "the 2nd" (amendment?) was the cause of US police violence. I also used the Brazilian police to show you are selected in your outrage, don't care about victims of police violence in any country, are looking for social validation and fall for the emotional manipulation of the media.
Never heard one person say this but whatever it's just to divert from the reaming I'm giving you. Stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously believe some people on this forum have become incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality. Another Scottish guy thought it was perfectly legal in the US to walk into a restaurant and wave a gun. You think in the US, police "shooting them is THE (all caps in original) method of dealing with them?" Other than this forum, I'm not sure where you people are getting these off-the-wall ideas about the US but it's quite telling that you people actually believe them. "Holding the gun in high esteem" isn't even a truth-apt statement but I can point out how stupid it is. In the US, gun rights are divisive and attitudes on gun laws vary widely throughout the country. 25% of Americans own at least one gun and sure you can say a certain segment of the population "holds the gun in high esteem." But to say that's what's causing police violence, well, that's just stupid. I already had a conversation with you about this. We can talk about US police violence all day. But if you say stupid stuff, expect to get called out on it. And you have an ax to grind with the US and you get more social points from your peers if you hold the US to one standard and brown countries to another (it's your white supremacy showing.) |
12th December 2018, 01:50 PM | #583 |
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I did not make that argument. In general, for the whole of the USA, that the gun has a high place in US society is one of the reasons why the USA has such a general gun problem. There are other more specific reasons why there is a problem with the police, such as training, a lack of worry about consequences, over aggression etc.
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It is a tue quo que argument to claim another is even worse, to try and distract from the issues under discussion.
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12th December 2018, 08:58 PM | #584 |
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You need to be aware that anyone can go back and look to see that you did, in fact, make that argument. The forum software even enables one to quote the argument you did make, and hi-lite the pertinent parts.
I understand it's embarrassing but you really did say that. I said you must also believe Brazilians "hold the gun in high esteem" (whatever that means) because Brazilian police "regularly shoots citizens" at a rate 6 times more per capita than the US police. You never clarified whether you did or didn't. You said it was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." And that brings me to my next point. Yet the first post other than the OP in this thread was about a police force that was not the US. You didn't tell zooterkin that his post was a "tu quo que fallacy" and a "distraction." You even posted this image comparing police shootings of different countries. https://theconversation.imgix.net/fi...=format&w=1000 In fact.... Nessie: Also Nessie: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKK Why the inconsistency? Because you weren't expecting someone to call you out on your double standards and it knocked you off your high horse. And like Christopher Reeves, it paralyzed you. I'm not surprised you're taken in by videos of actresses on the Internet. You should be aware that many things you see on the Internet are faked, staged, cherry picked and selectively edited. Things on the Internet are not often accurate representations of reality, nor are the people in videos representatives of their countries of origin. It's sad to see what has happened to the minds of the people on this forum. That's enough with this diversion of yours. And yet you don't have anything meaningful to say about the topic. Being an overnight rent-a-cop at construction facility in Boston for 6 months doesn't give you any insight about gun control. Your posts are nothing more than the predictable recycled and regurgitated nonsense from the BBC and Guardian. The usual hysterics and opinionated nonsense and statements that aren't even truth-apt--statements like "the possession of guns wins over the right to life" (seriously, who talks like this?) Your posts aren't measured responses to complicated issues, they are the usual ramblings that can be substituted for "if everyone had my superior moral fiber they'd be as outraged as I am and these problems would disappear." I hate to tell a seasoned skeptic this but the world does not work that way. |
12th December 2018, 10:12 PM | #585 |
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Ahahahahaha, Baylor is so cute. Oh damn...
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12th December 2018, 11:05 PM | #586 |
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One of the more brainless things I've seen in a while. We've had numerous posters on these very boards who overtly espoused American Exceptionalism. Notwithstanding some notable political organizations...
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12th December 2018, 11:28 PM | #587 |
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12th December 2018, 11:57 PM | #588 |
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Funny, because here you are saying precisely what Nessie claimed you said. Do try following along.
Originally Posted by Baylor
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13th December 2018, 12:02 AM | #589 |
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13th December 2018, 12:23 AM | #590 |
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You might consider trying to (more clearly) differentiate between 1) "I don't personally endorse American Exceptionalism" and 2) "I don't believe American Exceptionalism exists"
...if your intent is to challenge Nessie's claim on the subject. |
13th December 2018, 12:45 AM | #591 |
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13th December 2018, 12:58 AM | #592 |
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Baylor losing again. Always losing.
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13th December 2018, 02:57 AM | #593 |
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What you quoted is not me making the argument that the cause of US Police violence was because the gun and the 2nd Amendment is held in high esteem.
I was saying that the police use self defence as an excuse to shoot. You highlighted the wrong part because you misunderstood.
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It is a tu quo que fallacy to argue against the US Police having an issue with shooting people, by pointing out so does the Brazilian police.
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That Zooterkin posted the UK policing principles in the next post is not a tu quo que. He just added a reference to show how the UK police operate in basic principles. You still clearly do not understand a tu quo que argument.
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Are you fine with the very high rate of police shootings in the USA? |
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13th December 2018, 08:17 AM | #594 |
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‘Appalling’ Video Shows the Police Yanking 1-Year-Old From His Mother’s Arms
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13th December 2018, 09:56 PM | #595 |
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You said police shootings and "the 2nd" (amendment?) "clearly go together." That implies a causal relationship between the two. If someone did misunderstand what you were saying you shouldn't use such lazy and ambiguous verbiage. I still have no idea what you mean by "the 2nd" (amendment?) and police shootings "clearly go[ing] together."
Brazil and the US have a lot in common. Both large countries with diverse populations. Both are medium to low trust societies. Both have large racial and ethnic minorities and both border dysfunctional and corrupt 3rd world countries. You can't apply what works in an all white country of 5 million to the United States or Brazil. The same people who laugh at Fox News for comparing Venezuela to Denmark go off and compare the US to Norway. My concern for members' losing their grip on reality continues. I never argued for "American Exceptionalism," or to "maintain the idea that the USA is what [you] should all aspire to," or "against the US police having an issue with shooting people." These are all things you have imagined. It is very frustrating trying to have a discussion with people who cannot distinguish from their own delusions and reality. I see few if any members here defending police. I see them trying to calm you down from your hysterics. When you start off a discussion by trying to make it a competition to see who is the most outraged, people are going to be put off by this. There are innumerable injustices everyday throughout the world, people are suspicious of your obsession with the US police, and your chest thumping how great police are in all-white countries. They might think you have an animus towards Americans or black and Hispanic people. I know it isn't, and neither was my reference to Brazilian police. We are discussing police across the world, and the Brazilian police is a better comparison to the US than the Netherlands (lol). You want us to know you are outraged by police shootings so it makes sense you should be up in arms about Brazil's police (don't get me started on Mexcio's.) Asking why you haven't expressed outraged over the Brazilian police is a legitimate question for your chosen topic of discussion. A tu quo que fallacy would be me saying you have no place to talk because UK is the acid attack capital of the world. This is very poor argumentation. Someone with 11,000+ posts should strive for better. Try for quality not quantity. Please be aware this is the second time in this post you asked this question. |
14th December 2018, 03:57 AM | #596 |
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I did not say what you suggest I did.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12530584 You have mashed bits of what I said together and misunderstood me. I was very specific that I regard claims of self defence as a major cause of police shootings. I then referenced the USA in general and the high esteem it has for guns, as exemplified by the 2nd. I then said that the high esteem for guns helps to enables the police to get away with claiming self defence.
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That I have not criticised the Brazilian police in a thread about the US Police does not therefore mean I am being hypocritical and ignoring the clear faults in Brazil. You have introduced the Brazilian Police to try and make out it is somehow wrong to criticise the US Police, which it is not.
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14th December 2018, 02:03 PM | #597 | ||
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Game over Nessie. You can stop with this charade of yours.
YOUR chosen topic of discussion was "the behavior of US police officers." YOU are the one who used infographics to compare US police shootings to different countries'. YOU are the one who compared US police to police in other countries no fewer than 10 times. Anyone can go back and see you did in fact use an infographic to compare US police shooting to those of different countries. Then, when someone compares US to Brazil, anyone can see that you are saying this: You then try to dig yourself out of this hole by saying this: Anyone can go back and see that I never said this. This happened only in your own mind. I know you invested a lot of time playing Moral Orel but you really should abandon it now that you've been exposed as just another person feigning outrage over the Internet. You've been checkmated and you have no one to blame but yourself. Strange non-sequitur
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14th December 2018, 04:50 PM | #598 |
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Guess it depends what you aspire to...
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14th December 2018, 04:55 PM | #599 |
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Why bother? |
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14th December 2018, 07:22 PM | #600 |
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Some facts missing from this thread:
There are 50 states. Each state has it's own, independent standards for law enforcement officers. Some states have minimum, state-wide standards for training, and others do not. Law enforcement is divided into sub-entities: State Police, City Police, County/Parish Sheriff's Departments, and a few states have constables.(This does not count the many Federal agencies) Every police department has its own unique internal culture. Every police department is subject to an applied budget. Cops are expensive. Under U.S. and State liability laws it is simply cheaper to kill a suspect than to wound that suspect. Police officers have a powerful union with sharp lawyers. There are between 750,000 and 850,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the U.S. In 2017 police shot and killed 1,000 people in a country with a population of 325.7 million. (39,000 civilians shot and killed each other in the same time frame) (46 law enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty in 2017). ****** Where I live there are 9 different police departments within a 25 square mile zone, and there is also the California Highway Patrol. Some departments are staffed by great officers, and others have a reputation for being jerks. In California we have the Police Officer Standards & Training program wherein all officers must receive the same minimum training. The theory is that a cop in Fresno should perform at the same level as cops in Sacramento, and San Diego. For most part, POST has worked. (San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the CHP have their own academies). Only two of these local police departments have had officer-involved shootings in the past decade, and all were justified. |
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