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28th December 2018, 03:29 AM | #761 |
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28th December 2018, 03:29 AM | #762 |
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28th December 2018, 03:31 AM | #763 |
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28th December 2018, 03:39 AM | #764 |
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One cherry picked, uncredited copy and paste opinion is not proof I am wrong, especially since I produced evidence from court decisions to show that through out history, there has been, with conditions, a individual right to bear arms.
That you counter me with evidence people had to surrender their guns and could not openly carry them in certain parts of the USA over the years, just shows that basic right came with some conditions. |
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28th December 2018, 03:44 AM | #765 |
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28th December 2018, 03:56 AM | #766 |
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28th December 2018, 04:07 AM | #767 |
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Can I just check that the question being debated here is "Is the gun held in higher esteem in the USA than in the rest of the western world?"
Can I further check that this is even being disputed? Have I got that right? |
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28th December 2018, 01:19 PM | #768 |
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Technically, the gun in America has powerful legal status. We have Great Britain to thank for that.
The Constitution was ratified in 1788 with our revolution fresh in everyone's mind. Rifles and pistols were allowed to be kept by the general public not only because they could put food on the table, and fight off Indians, but because a standing army was expensive, and there was a good change Great Britain might try to assert influence on the continent again. The War of 1812 cemented the 2nd Amendment into place. The skirmishes in Texas with Mexico proved the value of the citizenry owning guns. Guns became part of the fabric of American culture before the Civil War, and the technological advances made with rifles, and pistols between 1960 and 1965 made for more reliable, and more productive/lethal firearms. The muzzle-loaders were out, repeating rifles with brass bullet cartridges were in. Check in any newspaper between 1870 and 1910 from states west of the Mississippi and you'll find guns were out there in the west doing good and bad things: https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/ You will also find that well into the 1980's that guns were sold in hardware stores. They were meant to be a tool just like hammers and saws, and were regarded as such until the Great Depression and the rise of organized crime when guns became a means to an end for the criminal element. From the 1920's to present day America you can track the growing misuse of firearms simply by watching Hollywood movies which glorify shooting the bad guys all the way from the original Scarface in 1932, through the TV series The Untouchables, up to 1995's Heat, and whatever the latest crime thriller coming to a theater near you. I think the issue is your use of the word Esteem is the problem. This implies that gun owners are looked up to in some way because they are gun owners, and that's not always the case. There is a gun culture here. I buy gun magazines yet I don't own a gun. There are also surfing cultures, backpacking cultures, off-road 4-wheel drive cultures, and knitting cultures too, and since there are 327.7 million of us the fact is that guns are less popular than video games. Guns are constitutionally protected. Guns have political influence disproportional to other, even larger, industries. And that's the issue or the problem depending on view point. |
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28th December 2018, 01:47 PM | #769 |
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I stated that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA. Initially I did not make a comparison with any other country, but in showing that the gun is held in high esteem in the USA, I have subsequently made a few comparisons.
Quote:
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28th December 2018, 01:57 PM | #770 |
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Here is the earliest scholarly commentary on the 2nd;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...rly_commentary It is clear that the opinion was that people as individuals and not just militia had the right to bear arms. If you have evidence that there was no individual right to bear arms, please can you show it.
Quote:
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28th December 2018, 01:59 PM | #771 |
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28th December 2018, 02:40 PM | #772 |
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28th December 2018, 02:45 PM | #773 |
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If you mean a law at any level, then there are plenty, and have been plenty in the past (many many more in the past actually, one of my great-uncles did about 10 years hard labor in Texas, yeah Texas, around WW1, for concealed carry).
If you meant just federal law, then you should have left out carry, because we are restricted from carrying in a number of locations federally. |
28th December 2018, 03:43 PM | #774 |
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That's not uncredited (NYMag) nor it is an opinion.
Here's another article this time from the Washington Post proving you wrong Nessie's wrong claims: Proof Nessie is wrong: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.94445b5a4971 |
28th December 2018, 03:52 PM | #775 |
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28th December 2018, 04:19 PM | #776 |
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28th December 2018, 05:29 PM | #777 |
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Bit of selection there, now that you've finally quoted a source. You should have read the rest, including:
"Today’s Second Amendment Anyone wishing for a return to an original meaning of the Second Amendment — where no one was a professional soldier, but everyone would be required to participate in the militia — would find themselves far from the political mainstream." |
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28th December 2018, 05:44 PM | #778 |
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Even though it didn't work well for Nessie, you are still allowed to make a point.
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28th December 2018, 05:48 PM | #779 |
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Your level of comprehension in no way equals your level of condescension.
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28th December 2018, 05:49 PM | #780 |
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Typical crap I expected.
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28th December 2018, 06:14 PM | #781 |
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You are the expert.
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29th December 2018, 03:32 AM | #782 |
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29th December 2018, 03:34 AM | #783 |
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29th December 2018, 03:35 AM | #784 |
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29th December 2018, 03:45 AM | #785 |
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This is the important part;
"This was the first time the Court had ruled that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own a gun" That reads, there had always been an individual right to one extent or another to own a gun. This was the first time a legal decision had guaranteed that right. So, when I said "Interpretations have not altered the basic tenet that it means citizens have the right to firearms and there has been very little compromise on that tenet" I was not wrong, the right has always been there, with certain modifications over the years. That leads on to the point there are many more firearms in the USA and many more people with guns than any other western nation. So, whatever laws there have been, they have not be particularly restrictive on individual possession and ownership. Then, despite huge numbers of mass shootings and gun deaths from other causes, there has been little to no agreement on what to do and action to restrict guns from those who should not have them. Then, to get back on topic, no matter how often the police shoot citizens in circumstances that are not self defence, but the police get to claim self defence, there has been little to no agreement on what to do and action to stop the police from further killings. |
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29th December 2018, 03:55 AM | #786 |
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29th December 2018, 03:56 AM | #787 |
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29th December 2018, 03:57 AM | #788 |
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29th December 2018, 04:00 AM | #789 |
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29th December 2018, 09:37 AM | #790 |
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I thought they may be a point to Baylor, I was wrong about that.
Anyway, Americans have always had the right to possess guns and do so in huge amounts with few restrictions compared to other countries. Police "self defence shootings" and how they often get away with murder, is in part due to the general high esteem guns are held in. |
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29th December 2018, 12:38 PM | #791 |
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29th December 2018, 01:11 PM | #792 |
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29th December 2018, 01:54 PM | #793 |
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You are not going to be able to weasel your way out of this mess that you're in.
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29th December 2018, 02:28 PM | #794 |
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I am not in a mess. This thread is full of evidence that there is a huge problem with police aggression in the USA. One of the reasons why the police are so aggressive is because they feel secure that they can use their guns with a high level of impunity, to the point they can claim almost anything is a threat and they are acting in self defence.
In my opinion, one of the reasons for that is the high regard for and the importance of guns in US culture. Many think that the solution is the gun. But it is actually the problem. |
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29th December 2018, 02:43 PM | #795 |
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That's incredibly racist.
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29th December 2018, 02:44 PM | #796 |
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29th December 2018, 02:46 PM | #797 |
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29th December 2018, 02:50 PM | #798 |
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I was not directing my comments at blacks. I was directing my comments at Americans and I was generalising.
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29th December 2018, 03:32 PM | #799 |
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You've made your disdain for black people very clear.
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29th December 2018, 03:49 PM | #800 |
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Your
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