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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:31 AM   #881
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Your original table of figures has no verification, and appears to be bollox, as pointed out numerous times, so until you supply a link to the source, you might as well compare it with suicidal chickens, for all the use it is.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:42 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm sorry you are unable to distinguish between someone who murdered and someone who was murdered. The statistics you cited show the latter but you compare it to the former. This is why it's so frustrating trying to carry on a discussion with you as you can't even get basic facts right to present your argument.
Both sets of data are how many people were murdered.

Quote:
You also compare eight year of data with annual data but you need to learn simple definitions before moving on to that.
I showed a one year comparison, 2018 in the USA was 2.1 white males murdered with guns and 2017 in E&W was 1.5 males murdered by any means.

White American males are being murdered at a higher rate just with guns that all E&W males by any means.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:45 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm categorizing statistics by race to show you hate black people.
Which you have failed to do. Your racist agenda is designed to distract from the actual issue, which American police kill at a very high rate and how they get away with claiming self defence, when it was not.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:40 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Please stop embarrassing yourself.


Perhaps you should respond to Nessie's actual points, or admit that you cannot?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 11:38 PM   #885
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Both sets of data are how many people were murdered.
You keep flip-flopping from murder rate to victimization rate and you don't understand the difference between the two. That's why you shouldn't frantically Google things especially when you're up against someone who has combed over the data. (hint: CNN isn't going to publish data showing blacks murder a lot.)
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
showed a one year comparison, 2018 in the USA was 2.1 white males murdered with guns and 2017 in E&W was 1.5 males murdered by any means.
2018 just ended a few days ago so there's no data available yet. An article published in April 2018 isn't going to have data on year end 2018. And the article you cited but didn't read clearly stated the data were from 2008-2016
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
White American males are being murdered at a higher rate just with guns that all E&W males by any means.
Because non-whites murder them. If blacks and Latinos disappeared, which is what you seem to be wishing for, then white Americans would have a murder victimization rate of E&W.

Last edited by Baylor; 4th January 2019 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 4th January 2019, 01:59 AM   #886
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"But when I ramble on endlessly how I hate black behavior....it's not about race...no.....it's....uh.......Americans I don't like....yeah......cause that's acceptable to the religion of skeptics......................"
i hesitate to use the word logic but whatever this runaeay train of tortured protohought is meant to be is truly bizarre.

nobody would argue thst trying to eliminate malaria is racist towards balck people even though it affects black people much more than white.

So how on esrth would tsking action to reduce gun deaths be racist towards black people?

Its literally equivalent to saying black people are more lokely to be unemployed than white people and therefore it would be racist to criticise policy thst costs jobs
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:22 AM   #887
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You keep flip-flopping from murder rate to victimization rate and you don't understand the difference between the two. That's why you shouldn't frantically Google things especially when you're up against someone who has combed over the data. (hint: CNN isn't going to publish data showing blacks murder a lot.)
Both sets of data was for the homicide rate. The CNN article did not ignore that black on black murders are the highest.

Quote:
2018 just ended a few days ago so there's no data available yet. An article published in April 2018 isn't going to have data on year end 2018. And the article you cited but didn't read clearly stated the data were from 2008-2016
I thought the annual figures were for 2017-18, it may be the average of the years 2008 to 2016. The E&W stats also show the rates over those years,

2008 - 1.34
2009 - 1.17
2010 - 1.08
2011 - 1.14
2012 - 0.94
2013 - 0.96
2014 - 0.91
2015 - 0.89
2016 - 0.98

That is ALL homicides, white males will be a smaller subset. The figures show 2/3 of homicides are male. So we can take a third off the overall rate. That rate is about half the homicide rate for white American males.

Quote:
Because non-whites murder them. If blacks and Latinos disappeared, which is what you seem to be wishing for, then white Americans would have a murder victimization rate of E&W.
I have just shown that to be wrong.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:30 AM   #888
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Both sets of data are how many people were murdered.
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Both sets of data was for the homicide rate.
You got to pick one or the either pal, homicide rate or victimization rate. They're not the same thing like you think they are.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:36 AM   #889
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The figures for both are for homicides.

I accept they are not a direct comparison, for a start the two countries do not necessarily record homicide in the same way. I have also accepted one is specifically for firearms and males and the other is the overall rate.

But when the OVERALL rate for one is lower than the rate for the other's rate for just white males with firearms, then the direct equivalence will be even lower.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:37 AM   #890
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As Archie Gemmill said "Its literally equivalent to saying black people are more lokely to be unemployed than white people and therefore it would be racist to criticise policy thst costs jobs"
I wasn't going to comment on how stupid, and yes, racist, this is but since two of you made this dumb analogy you leave me no choice.

Blacks committing murders are about what blacks do (hence I said black BEHAVIOR, black culture.) Malaria affecting black people and other stupid analogies are about what affects black people.

I have been made highly aware by reading this board that white Europeans cannot grant blacks any degree of agency. The European white supremacists on this board think blacks are the forever abused pets of whites. That is one of the reasons I call you and other white European members of this board white supremacists. And tell that other guy his keyboard is either defective or his hands are misplaced on the keyboard. It's hard to make sense out of what he's trying to say.

Last edited by Baylor; 4th January 2019 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 4th January 2019, 02:41 AM   #891
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You got to pick one or the either pal, homicide rate or victimization rate. They're not the same thing like you think they are.
Homicide rates are, unless otherwise specified, victimization rates amongst the listed population, kid.
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Old 4th January 2019, 08:29 AM   #892
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/pr...EDN-20180222-1

The three Baltic States have rates higher than 2.1. Every other European country has an OVERALL rate of less than 2.1. Some 14 European countries had rates of less than 1 per 100,000, so half the US white male rate of homicide.
And, insofar as I can tell, the Baltic States are pretty much the whitest part of the EU. Virtually no Islamic refugees have wound up there. (there are all of 319 Muslims in all of Latvia according to wiki).
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Old 4th January 2019, 08:49 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
And, insofar as I can tell, the Baltic States are pretty much the whitest part of the EU. Virtually no Islamic refugees have wound up there. (there are all of 319 Muslims in all of Latvia according to wiki).
Demonstration of posts#899-901
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:17 PM   #894
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Homicide rates are, unless otherwise specified, victimization rates amongst the listed population, kid.
And if a population has different races, then a race's homicide rate is going to be different from its victimization rate. I thought that was obvious but you never know with this forum.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:22 PM   #895
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That I criticise the US police for their behaviour does not therefore mean I am a white supremacist. There is a massive disconnect between the two positions.
Not at all. These Europeans afraid of their own shadow who come to these message boards let others know how outraged they are by US gun violence, also want us to think they'd fit right in in a black neighborhood. That's the disconnect. It's funny to think about actually.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:28 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
And, insofar as I can tell, the Baltic States are pretty much the whitest part of the EU. Virtually no Islamic refugees have wound up there. (there are all of 319 Muslims in all of Latvia according to wiki).
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Demonstration of posts#899-901
Follow along please. Frantically Googling Nessie thought the 2.1 was the murder rate with firearms for white male.

It was the victimization rate. A mistake he actually admitted to. Keep up it's not that hard.
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Old 4th January 2019, 07:41 PM   #897
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
And if a population has different races, then a race's homicide rate is going to be different from its victimization rate. I thought that was obvious but you never know with this forum.
No. The homicide rate by default is always the victimization rate amongst the specified population. And you are the only one in this thread that I've seen who has been consistently confused about this concept; as evidenced by the quoted statement.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 4th January 2019 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 4th January 2019, 08:05 PM   #898
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Follow along please. Frantically Googling Nessie thought the 2.1 was the murder rate with firearms for white male.

It was the victimization rate. A mistake he actually admitted to. Keep up it's not that hard.
No, he didn't. What you seem to imagine was Nessie "admitting to his mistake" was actually Nessie correcting your mistakes. (Specifically what a homicide rate is in the first place). And you still haven't figured it out.

Last edited by Shadowdweller; 4th January 2019 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:43 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
No. The homicide rate by default is always the victimization rate amongst the specified population. And you are the only one in this thread that I've seen who has been consistently confused about this concept; as evidenced by the quoted statement.
Maybe CNN can explain it for you.
'Compared with white men, the researchers found that black men experienced 27 more firearm homicides per 100,000 people annually nationwide (29.12 for black men vs. 2.1 for white men). '
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:45 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
No, he didn't. What you seem to imagine was Nessie "admitting to his mistake" was actually Nessie correcting your mistakes. (Specifically what a homicide rate is in the first place). And you still haven't figured it out.
Sure, you probably think that data published last April was for 2018 too.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:59 AM   #901
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Census data is an opinion. You never know what people on this forum will say next.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:59 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
No. The homicide rate by default is always the victimization rate amongst the specified population. And you are the only one in this thread that I've seen who has been consistently confused about this concept; as evidenced by the quoted statement.
Cut to the chase though. The thesis being put forward on this thread on police shootings is that black people are violent and therefore deserve to be shot by the police. They aren't real Americans and don't desrrve the same rights and protections as white folks.

All the white folks killed by guns are killed by black folks in his world.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:10 AM   #903
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Maybe CNN can explain it for you.
'Compared with white men, the researchers found that black men experienced 27 more firearm homicides per 100,000 people annually nationwide (29.12 for black men vs. 2.1 for white men). '
Quoting CNN will serve no purpose until such time as you can demonstrate basic understanding of the language used. But congratulations, you just managed to quote a (firearm) homicide rate.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sure, you probably think that data published last April was for 2018 too.
That statement has literally nothing to do with the chain of conversation you are responding to.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:13 AM   #904
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Cut to the chase though. The thesis being put forward on this thread on police shootings is that black people are violent and therefore deserve to be shot by the police. They aren't real Americans and don't desrrve the same rights and protections as white folks.
Perhaps, but what I'm personally responding to in the last few posts is Baylor's misuse of terms, resulting in his inability to form a cohesive argument as well as to address Nessie's arguments; despite delusions to the contrary.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:16 AM   #905
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Not at all. These Europeans afraid of their own shadow who come to these message boards let others know how outraged they are by US gun violence, also want us to think they'd fit right in in a black neighborhood. That's the disconnect. It's funny to think about actually.
You say that as if Americans are fine with the level of gun deaths and that racism is just a fact of life.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:18 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Cut to the chase though. The thesis being put forward on this thread on police shootings is that black people are violent and therefore deserve to be shot by the police. They aren't real Americans and don't desrrve the same rights and protections as white folks.

All the white folks killed by guns are killed by black folks in his world.
That's slightly misrepresenting Baylor's thesis. Some are also killed by Muslims.
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Old 5th January 2019, 02:28 AM   #907
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Maybe CNN can explain it for you.
'Compared with white men, the researchers found that black men experienced 27 more firearm homicides per 100,000 people annually nationwide (29.12 for black men vs. 2.1 for white men). '
The 2.1 is the homicide rate for white men with firearms.

I have compared that to the overall homicide rate (male and female, all races, all types of weapons) for Europe and with the exception of three countries, the overall rate in Europe is lower than that for white male Americans who are shot.

The overall homicide rate in the USA was 5.3 in 2017.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-...-state#nat1970

Compared to 1.21 in 2017 in E&W.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2017

But that includes all the 1989 Hillsborough disaster deaths, which in 2017 were recorded as homicides for the first time. If you exclude those deaths the
overall rate is 1.05.

That is FIVE TIMES lower than the white American male firearms homicide rate.
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Old 5th January 2019, 04:00 AM   #908
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2.1 is the homicide rate for white men with firearms.

I have compared that to the overall homicide rate (male and female, all races, all types of weapons) for Europe and with the exception of three countries, the overall rate in Europe is lower than that for white male Americans who are shot.

The overall homicide rate in the USA was 5.3 in 2017.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-...-state#nat1970

Compared to 1.21 in 2017 in E&W.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...ndingmarch2017

But that includes all the 1989 Hillsborough disaster deaths, which in 2017 were recorded as homicides for the first time. If you exclude those deaths the
overall rate is 1.05.

That is FIVE TIMES lower than the white American male firearms homicide rate.
But those white guys were shot by black people so it doesnt count... or something
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:19 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Cut to the chase though. The thesis being put forward on this thread on police shootings is that black people are violent and therefore deserve to be shot by the police. They aren't real Americans and don't desrrve the same rights and protections as white folks.

All the white folks killed by guns are killed by black folks in his world.
The thesis only put forward by you.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:24 PM   #910
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You say that as if Americans are fine with the level of gun deaths and that racism is just a fact of life.
You say that as if you'd be fine with the level of gun violence in black neighborhoods, would not discriminate or be discriminated against in black neighborhoods, and would not police differently from a neighborhood in Scotland (lol).

Last edited by Baylor; 5th January 2019 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:28 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The overall homicide rate in the USA was 5.3 in 2017.
More than half of those murders were committed by a racial minority. Of the remaining ~half, more than half of those were committed by another racial/"ethnic" minority.

Different racial groups bring a way of life you deem unacceptable. That is why I call you a racist.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The 2.1 is the homicide rate for white men with firearms.
...
But that includes all the 1989 Hillsborough disaster deaths, which in 2017 were recorded as homicides for the first time. If you exclude those deaths the
overall rate is 1.05.

That is FIVE TIMES lower than the white American male firearms homicide rate.
2.1 per 100,000 is 5 TIMES 1.05 PER 100,000

Last edited by Baylor; 5th January 2019 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 5th January 2019, 07:34 PM   #912
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But how is one supposed to rule by fear if one cannot clearly separate out a group to be feared?
Guess that Ariana Grande concert bombing that killed a bunch of kids was mythical too.
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Old 6th January 2019, 12:55 AM   #913
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
2.1 per 100,000 is 5 TIMES 1.05 PER 100,000
No, 1.05 is about a fifth of 5.30. I'm not sure if it works to say 1.05 is 5 times lower than 5.3. It's one way to put it. 5.25 is 5 times higher than 1.05, so maybe you could say 1.05 is 5 times lower than 5.25.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:28 AM   #914
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You say that as if you'd be fine with the level of gun violence in black neighborhoods,
If anything like that level of violence happens in Scotland, it is dealt with. That is something the USA is unable to or uninterested in doing.

Quote:
would not discriminate or be discriminated against in black neighborhoods, and would not police differently from a neighborhood in Scotland (lol).
Policing in the USA is different in Maine or Colorado to LA or NY.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:37 AM   #915
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
More than half of those murders were committed by a racial minority. Of the remaining ~half, more than half of those were committed by another racial/"ethnic" minority.

Different racial groups bring a way of life you deem unacceptable. That is why I call you a racist.
Murder is wrong. That black people murder more than whites does not mean that when I condemn the murders, I also condemn black people.

My attitude is that the way black people have been treated in the USA is terrible and racist. Many have been disadvantaged and marginalised. A gang culture has become prevalent in a drugs and crime economy, which is ruled by violence and not the rule of law. Add in the easy access to guns and of course there is a very high homicide rate.

You are the racist as you try and make out black people are not really Americans, so it is wrong for me to say the murders is an American problem.

Quote:
2.1 per 100,000 is 5 TIMES 1.05 PER 100,000
Sorry, when I said "That is FIVE TIMES lower than the white American male firearms homicide rate", that should have been a reference to overall rates.
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Old 6th January 2019, 01:50 AM   #916
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Murder is wrong. That black people murder more than whites does not mean that when I condemn the murders, I also condemn black people.

My attitude is that the way black people have been treated in the USA is terrible and racist. Many have been disadvantaged and marginalised. A gang culture has become prevalent in a drugs and crime economy, which is ruled by violence and not the rule of law. Add in the easy access to guns and of course there is a very high homicide rate.
This is not something those on the US streets have the luxury of pontificating on.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are the racist as you try and make out black people are not really Americans, so it is wrong for me to say the murders is an American problem
I never said blacks aren't Americans. I said blacks are Americans you don't like. It is racist for you to say it is simply an American problem because it denies blacks their unique identity, culture, way of life.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:03 AM   #917
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is not something those on the US streets have the luxury of pontificating on.

I never said blacks aren't Americans. I said blacks are Americans you don't like. It is racist for you to say it is simply an American problem because it denies blacks their unique identity, culture, way of life.
The Americans I do not like are those who murder, whether they are black, white or police officers. The topic of this thread is police officers who are murdering, but getting away with it by claiming self defence.

You have tried to deflect from the issue of US police dodgy self defence claims by being offensive towards me and accusing me of being racist.

It is an American problem. Part of that problem is the high levels of racism in America whereby racists like you make out the high levels of homicides amongst blacks is part of "their unique identity, culture, way of life".
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:10 AM   #918
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The Americans I do not like are those who murder, whether they are black, white or police officers. The topic of this thread is police officers who are murdering, but getting away with it by claiming self defence.

You have tried to deflect from the issue of US police dodgy self defence claims by being offensive towards me and accusing me of being racist.

It is an American problem. Part of that problem is the high levels of racism in America whereby racists like you make out the high levels of homicides amongst blacks is part of "their unique identity, culture, way of life".
Whereas it's more plausibly explained by poverty and prejudice, leading for example to a justifiable lack of trust in many police forces by blacks.
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:18 AM   #919
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You have tried to deflect from the issue of US police dodgy self defence claims by being offensive towards me and accusing me of being racist.
When in fact I've addressed this several times. Guess I have to do it again. When a racial minority murders at a rate of 10 times the racial majority, the bar of self defense will be lower than what it is in a small lily white country like Scotland. This is just another not-so-subtle "look how great things are when it's only white people!" argument
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Old 6th January 2019, 02:28 AM   #920
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Whereas it's more plausibly explained by poverty and prejudice, leading for example to a justifiable lack of trust in many police forces by blacks.
Blacks murder less when they're surrounded by whites. You guys really need to start thinking things through.
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