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13th June 2019, 01:12 PM | #1041 |
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They look a bit dark skinned to me, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain why that's irrelevant.
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13th June 2019, 01:27 PM | #1042 |
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13th June 2019, 02:29 PM | #1043 |
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I haven't watched the full video, but so far I've counted 6 (SIX!!) police officers participating in this nonsense. Are we sure they weren't reported for committing multiple murders?
Seriously, and I say this with absolutely no caveats, I ******* hate the police. We need to come up with a plan to hire European training officers who will over the course of the next 10-20 years (yeah, it'll take a while) train replacements for every police officer currently employed in the United States. |
13th June 2019, 02:43 PM | #1044 |
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I find it significant how many of these things all take place in Maricopa county (where Phoenix lies). Sheriff Arpaio's old stomping grounds.
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13th June 2019, 09:47 PM | #1045 |
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14th June 2019, 02:28 AM | #1046 |
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From the video, Cop to woman in car with child
“Get you’re ******* hands up” “Get out of the ******* car” “I’m gonna put a cap right in your ******* head” “You’re gonna ******* get shot” |
14th June 2019, 04:47 PM | #1047 |
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Daily Mail reports that the couple is now seeking $10 million from the Phoenix police.
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14th June 2019, 05:43 PM | #1048 |
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I hope they get at least a couple, after going through that.
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14th June 2019, 07:58 PM | #1049 |
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A link to a second angle, from the ground. Two things that stand out the most:
The man is handcuffed and thus not entirely on-balance, but already has his legs somewhat separated when one lunatic cop sweeps his leg and starts screaming at him about how he needs to obey. The second nutjob who come running up the side to point his gun at the woman with a baby in her arms, like he's running for cover while confronting a murder suspect. The Dollar store folks didn't even notice the 4 year old girl take the doll, and I doubt the parents did either - kids that young don't really grasp ethics as it applies to ownership, they see a doll in a bin or something and just take it. Some third party saw it, and called in the cops. Yeah, it's another one of those stories. Instead of just saying "Guys, I think your little girl might have pocketed a doll y'all didn't pay for." or just letting it go because it's the freaking Dollar Store, nope, gotta call 911. All those prior incidents like BBQ Becky, Pool Patrol Patty, and the like, that some of y'all probably just cute and harmless? Well, they can go this way, or worse, as well. The only real question is what the 911 caller said to dispatch. It's possible that the caller lied and said they robbed the place or something. But even then, once you see a couple and their children, common sense should kick in. The cops look to be white, but - as I've been saying here for years - black police are if anything even more brutal towards black people than white cops are. Yep. The fish, in this case, rotted from the head. |
14th June 2019, 08:27 PM | #1050 |
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If you watch the first video, right before the leg sweeping incident, the cop leans in as if to say something inaudible, and at that point you can see the man visibly spread his legs as if he was just ordered to do that. My impression is that the cop decided he hadn't spread his legs far enough, so swept his leg and then screamed at him about compliance.
Just every single moment of this incident is 100% out-of-line, from the response itself to the actions of the officers. 6 units and 10 or 11 officers for this. In the link you give, it's alleged that the baby the officer tried to yank out of its mother's arms so he could handcuff her, suffered a dislocation. Not even surprised to hear that it wasn't the store that called in the "theft", but some random prick. |
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16th June 2019, 07:36 AM | #1051 |
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I cannot bring myself to watch any of these videos any more, too distressing.
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16th June 2019, 07:43 AM | #1052 |
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"Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? |
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16th June 2019, 09:23 AM | #1053 |
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16th June 2019, 10:34 AM | #1054 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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16th June 2019, 10:52 AM | #1055 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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16th June 2019, 12:30 PM | #1056 |
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17th June 2019, 03:11 AM | #1057 |
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Why cops still don't belong at pride
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/te...btq/index.html "Authorities in Tennessee are reviewing all pending cases involving a Knox County Sheriff's Office detective after he gave a sermon at his church that called for the government to execute members of the LGBTQ community." |
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17th June 2019, 04:15 AM | #1058 |
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17th June 2019, 04:21 AM | #1059 |
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17th June 2019, 05:23 AM | #1060 |
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Cop kills mentally disabled man, injures both parents at Costco
Watching this story develop might give you whiplash. Original reporting was that a off-duty cop holding his child was attacked, unprovoked, in a California Costco. That cop shot and killed his attacker and went to the hospital for minor injuries.
Further details coming out make for a more suspicious story. The man killed has severe mental disabilities and is largely non-verbal. It is unclear how such a disabled person could start an "argument" resulting in lawful lethal force by the cop. The cop launched a barrage of bullets that killed the disabled man and shot both of the man's parents who are his caretakers. Both parents were critically wounded. The mother is still in a coma and the father has yet to make any statements about the incident. Story here: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...616-story.html Hopefully there is store surveillance cameras that captured the shooting, because I find the cop's narrative to not pass the smell test. |
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17th June 2019, 06:32 AM | #1061 |
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//Note. I speaking generally, not necessarily of this one specific incident or the details specific to it which, obviously, should be judged on its own by the facts as they becomes available. This is a jumping off point, not a direct rebuttal or counter-argument.//
I do think with police shootings we tend to get hung up on things which essentially don't matter, and the demographics of the victims in regard to their... potential threat level outside of any actions they did or did not take is one of them. Disabled people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Tiny, little frail and physically weak people can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Women can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. Older children who are still technically minors can still be a threat that could warrant a deadly response. So I do tend, not hard and fast rule just tend, to bristle at reports that frame police incidents as "Cops do such and such to disabled/woman/child/100 lb person/etc" because that overshadows the actual core of the discussion, was the person a viable threat or could reasonably be seen as one. |
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17th June 2019, 08:18 AM | #1062 |
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I agree with your general point. People do tend to hang on inconsequential details. It's like when people say "police shoot man for (petty crime here)". Any stop can escalate, at no fault to the police, to deadly violence.
What makes this situation, specifically, more suspicious to me is that the police shot three unarmed people. I find it much less likely that three people minding their own business decided to engage in unlawful violence against a stranger that justified using deadly force. I will also note that a mentally disabled adult seems interesting to me because many police often have a very aggressive approach to compliance and conflict deescalation. Like in the case of the severely autistic man who was shot from a safe distance with a rifle for refusing to put down a toy truck, the "comply or die" line of reasoning does not work well with less than rational individuals, such as the mentally deficient. |
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17th June 2019, 08:22 AM | #1063 |
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17th June 2019, 08:34 AM | #1064 |
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I agree with that 100%.
In nearly all of these cases that have any level of procedural ambiguity in them (the ones that aren't just outright daylight executions basically) what astonishes me the most is the total lack of any concept in play of deescalating the situation, as if the police are going into the situations trying to end them in a dead suspect via a "well technically they meet this vague, undefined criteria" instead of seeing it as their duty, or hell even seeing in their own best interest, to at least try to deescalate the situation. |
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17th June 2019, 08:37 AM | #1065 |
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The problem is, there's often footage of the police doing all of the escalation, sometimes shooting before the victim even has any idea what's happening. Levar Jones and Philando Castile, both shot for reaching for their ID after the cop asked for ID. Freddie Grey, taken for a rough ride after running away from police, arrested for nothing. John Crawford III, instantly shot for holding an air gun in the Wal-Mart that he pulled the same air gun off of a shelf in. Sandra Bland, roughed up and arrested for asking if she really needed to put out the cigarrette she was smoking. Eric Garner, choked out for refusing to be arrested for standing outside (he was not selling loose cigarrettes that day, and if he were this would still not be an arrestable offense). Rekia Boyd, shot as a bystander after a cop mistook someone else's cell phone for a gun. Darrien Hunt, killed for cosplaying.
And yes, statistically, we know that race and mental illness play roles. There's a recent story on twitter where a wheelchair-bound woman started having a PTSD episode due to being raped a decade ago, and someone called the cops. End result? Five men shouting threats at her in an attempt to calm her down "Calm down, or we'll make you calm down!" "Calm down, or we'll arrest you and take you to jail!". Guess how well this worked?
Quote:
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17th June 2019, 08:46 AM | #1066 |
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I think I've mentioned it before but that's why I don't like it when the language or metaphor used in the discussion is that cops are "acting like soldiers."
Please. Soldiers would kill (no pun) for this kind of loose, seat of their pants ROE with zero accountability. When I was in Afghanistan I spent... 30% of my waking time in the same building with at least 1 person who would, at the first chance, try and kill me. No ifs, ands, or butts about it. These people were the enemy and had earned that title. We were in open, declared conflict with them. And when they acted up, and boy did they like to act up, we still had to go through a very rigorous deescalation procedure, follow strict rules of engagement, and react to threats proportionality. We couldn't just put two in Mr. Taliban's head everytime he did anything that was "technically" threatening. And that was the right way to handle the situation. I'm no bleeding heart here. When you actually step up and declare your intent to be a problem, you should get put down hard, and have zero tolerance for being a touchguy before you get your pee-pee smacked and being a shriveling poor widdle victim afterwards (or having others do so on your behalf). But expecting a civilian police force to at least treat the civilian populace they are protecting with the same level of responsibility and restraint as soldiers have to give to the actual literal declared enemy hardly seems unreasonable to me. |
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17th June 2019, 10:28 AM | #1067 |
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Yeah, I think American police are trained that they must never ever cede authority or control in a situation lest bad guys just start walking all over them or ignoring them; so "de-escalation" isn't even in the playbook, except of course in the form of capitulation by whomever they're yelling at.
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17th June 2019, 10:40 AM | #1068 |
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Even beyond that "Taking control of the situation" which... fine certainly has it's place isn't the same thing as "Refusing to deescalate the situation."
There's a situation. Cops are called. Once the cops arrive there's some truth to the idea that it's a good thing for them "take control," to let all the parties; aggressors, victims, bystanders, etc, to know that they are running the show. There's certainly a place for that. But you can do that and deescalate the situation. |
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17th June 2019, 10:44 AM | #1069 |
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I think they are generally trained in that, but police culture doesn't encourage it and they face little to no consequence for a bit of unnecessary violence. Add in how often they celebrate violence and encourage it and even if taught it is easy to refuse to practice it and face no consequence.
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17th June 2019, 11:05 AM | #1070 |
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Actually, no, police in most jurisdictions are not trained in de-escalation. There was a thread about this not too long ago, but the gist of it is that most PDs use "compliance" training -- that is, they're taught to escalate escalate use of force to enforce compliance as quickly as possible, rather than to de-escalate a situation. That's why so many ramp up to deadly force so quickly, even when the situation clearly does not call for it. |
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17th June 2019, 05:41 PM | #1071 |
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17th June 2019, 05:43 PM | #1072 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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17th June 2019, 05:49 PM | #1073 |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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18th June 2019, 07:08 AM | #1074 |
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The road to Fascism is paved with people saying, "You're overreacting!". |
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19th June 2019, 12:20 AM | #1075 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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19th June 2019, 12:37 AM | #1076 |
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And being black, of course. White guys just get beat up.
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19th June 2019, 09:08 AM | #1077 |
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Absolutely. Shouting, making threats and generally acting like a lunatic is, as a general rule, rarely the best way to take control of the situation. Being calmly authoritative typically works much better. You've got a police uniform and a gun. Act like you know what the hell you are doing, for God's sake.
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19th June 2019, 11:15 AM | #1078 |
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As an aside, I have met some police officers who had the skills and knew exactly how to calm down any situation, they should be the ones doing training
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19th June 2019, 12:37 PM | #1079 | |||
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Indeed, they should be doing the training. Sadly, far too many are trained by ghouls like the accurately named Dave Grossman:
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19th June 2019, 01:37 PM | #1080 |
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