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17th November 2019, 11:09 AM | #1561 |
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17th November 2019, 11:11 AM | #1562 |
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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17th November 2019, 11:12 AM | #1563 |
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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17th November 2019, 11:18 AM | #1564 |
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17th November 2019, 04:52 PM | #1565 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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17th November 2019, 05:25 PM | #1566 |
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When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. |
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18th November 2019, 04:52 AM | #1567 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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18th November 2019, 04:55 AM | #1568 |
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18th November 2019, 04:58 AM | #1569 |
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Good then we can get rid of qualified immunity thing where the police are immune from the consequences of breaking the law and violating peoples rights as long as they didn't know the law.
Otherwise things like shooting a non aggressive dog and missing killing a kid might be a problem for the cops. I mean it would be totally outrageous to hold them to anything like the standards of normal people. |
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18th November 2019, 05:07 AM | #1570 |
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18th November 2019, 07:54 AM | #1571 |
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18th November 2019, 08:08 AM | #1572 |
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Qualified immunity is the premise that ignorance of the law is an excuse for a cop. That is a simple statement of fact there.
A police officers use of force is always presumed to be reasonable and above question unless it can be shown that they were knowingly violating the law when they assaulted someone. So tackling the quadrepeligic is of course totally covered even if actually illegal because ignorance of the law is a protection for the police when they violate the law. https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/...edImmunity.pdf You made a statement about ignorance of the law being no excuse, well it is an excuse for a police officer. But of course holding them to the standards of regular people is ridiculous. |
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18th November 2019, 09:10 AM | #1573 |
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18th November 2019, 01:42 PM | #1574 |
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Since this thread seems to be long on slurs and short on actual police perspectives, I thought I'd post a couple here that seem relevant to some recent postings in this thread. Donut Operator is one of several police turned you-tubers. His postings seem more articulate and better researched than some of the others to at least the likes of myself. Advance warning for language and possible opposing political viewpoints.
Traffic stops gone awry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1q_VtUzN3g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS0g...h_sygZ&index=6 Contrary to DO, I suspect that the lady in the second clip may well be sincere; just ignorant. |
18th November 2019, 02:05 PM | #1575 |
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18th November 2019, 02:08 PM | #1576 |
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I doubt he even knows about it. You could always try sending the guy the clip and asking what his opinion is. Or what the opinions of other (former) LEOs might be on, say, one of the many reddit groups devoted to such things. I'd be interested in hearing the answer myself if you get a response.
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18th November 2019, 02:10 PM | #1577 |
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18th November 2019, 03:02 PM | #1578 |
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19th November 2019, 04:09 AM | #1579 |
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Yet you felt the need to take issue with the qualified immunity that police have. The point is that this officer is protected like all police if he violates people rights as long as he didn't know the law. That does shoot holes in the premise that ignorance of the law is no excuse, it is for the police.
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19th November 2019, 07:21 AM | #1580 |
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Yeah, we see that a lot.
"Here are examples of cops knocking around high school kids." "Here's a video of a cop dancing with them. They love him!" OK, I'm sure that kid that got knocked around feels a lot better now, right? It's all just an example of "not all cops are bad." |
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19th November 2019, 07:25 AM | #1581 |
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19th November 2019, 07:27 AM | #1582 |
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Until the "not bad" ones actually take a stand against the bad ones and say stop their union from forcing the department from putting officers fired over killing unarmed men twice in the space of a year, and start driving off their racist and violent coworkers instead of covering for them, they fail to be considered good in my book.
Of course the difference between the bad and not bad cops is often just a matter of timing, I mean the no bad ones know when to turn off their body cameras and make sure no video gets recorded. As we saw in the murder of Botham Shem Jean the cops who responded made sure to make all efforts to not collect too much evidence by turning off their body cameras as soon as they found out the shooter was a cop. Do they still rate as "not bad cops"? I want to know exactly how low the bar is. |
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19th November 2019, 07:30 AM | #1583 |
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20th November 2019, 12:03 PM | #1584 |
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20th November 2019, 12:27 PM | #1585 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th November 2019, 01:35 PM | #1586 |
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20th November 2019, 01:46 PM | #1587 |
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Got any source for how Qualified Immunity would play into that? It would mean that King sued the officers as individuals not just the city, and I can find no evidence of that. It is not relevant to criminal cases.
It means that unlike with say OJ Simpson wrongful death suits are not something a police officer who gets off on the murder charge needs to worry about. They can go back to work and know they are in the clear. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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20th November 2019, 06:59 PM | #1588 |
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21st November 2019, 04:07 AM | #1589 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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3rd December 2019, 08:13 PM | #1590 |
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4th December 2019, 11:41 AM | #1591 |
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Wow something might happen from this, that it truly shocking usually it is just jokes and laughs as the guy dies, as per apparently proper police procedure.
"At least four New York City correction officers failed to act for seven minutes as an 18-year-old detainee tried to hang himself at the Rikers Island jail complex, with some of them watching the suicide attempt before intervening, according to four people with knowledge of the matter." https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/03/n...e-suicide.html |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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4th December 2019, 12:02 PM | #1592 |
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A suicide attempt sounds like he didn't succeed. They managed to restore a heartbeat, but there's no brain activity. But hey, as long as he has a heartbeat, they can't be charged with his death.
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4th December 2019, 12:03 PM | #1593 |
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And yet they're still being treated like anomalies, instead of as evidence of a deeper and more pervasive, systematic cultural problem. The front-line officers might (might) see significant penalties, but how much do you want to bet that the command structure that condoned, actively or tacitly, their behaviour -- or at best failed to provide sufficient oversight -- will get off without so much as an official reprimand.
Quote:
Emphasis added. |
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4th December 2019, 02:06 PM | #1594 |
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I'll say it again: Riker's should be shut down entirely. I'm not a prison abolitionist, and I don't even necessarily agree that every nonviolent offender shouldn't be in prison - pension raiding and other serious financial crimes, repeated DUIs when all else has failed, even if nobody else is hurt, and the like qualify. But we do need to rethink use of solitary, strongly consider closing plainly out of control facilities like Riker's, and simply reform what's illegal to begin with.
(Ah, also, a complete ban on private prisons - to folks outside of the US, do y'all even have any private prisons? I've never heard of it in any other country, but just want to check.) |
4th December 2019, 02:52 PM | #1595 |
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4th December 2019, 02:52 PM | #1596 |
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I watched a number of his videos. Some do make fair points. He does however err on the side of what cops may legally be allowed to do as opposed to what is wise. There is one video of a woman being dragged out of her car by her hair who apparently had panicked and 'fled the scene' for two blocks before stopping. There seemed to be no attempt at asking her to vacate the car or defuse the situation. Legal may be, but certainly not use of minimal force.
There is also his review of a case mentioned above of an arrest of parents of a four year old child who 'stole' a barbie doll. Even DO had to admit there were some anger management issues. However he did reference that the father was accused of shoplifting in addition - a charge he was subsequently not convicted of. (So is innocent of.) In any case he failed to comment on the fact that it seemed particularly dangerous to be pointing a gun at a woman carrying her child (and unnecessary - what was she going to do with arms full of child?). It would be better if he could come out and say this is poor policing. Policing should not just be about what is legally justifiable but the least use of force. |
6th December 2019, 11:51 AM | #1597 |
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Reporting on this is being understandably eclipsed by the Pensacola mass shooting today; however, yesterday afternoon elsewhere in the same state, police pursued two armed suspects who had robbed a jewelry store and then hijacked a UPS truck to make their getaway when police converged, taking the delivery driver with them as a hostage.
Helicopter video of the incident shows police chased them until the truck became trapped on a thoroughfare in stopped rush hour traffic, surrounded by civilian cars, at which point police quickly surrounded the vehicle on foot and a shootout commenced. The officers fired on the truck from all angles, while taking cover behind the occupied civilian vehicles. The hostage UPS driver was killed in the gunfire, as was a driver of one of the nearby cars. Both of the robbers were also killed. Police afterward held a press conference at which they reassured the public that no police officers had been harmed during the incident. |
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6th December 2019, 01:22 PM | #1598 |
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I don't know about you, but this seems unnecessarily excessive to me:
https://youtu.be/-hVSbnK4wuQ (It's a 2 minute video of the chase mentioned in the post above.) The grisly end of the chase can be seen about 14 minutes in to this video: https://www.facebook.com/WPLGLocal10...3197724435794/ It doesn't exactly look like a textbook example of well-trained police taking down a perp with clinical precision. |
7th December 2019, 12:45 AM | #1599 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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9th December 2019, 06:56 AM | #1600 |
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Based on the helicopter footage, it is almost certain that the hostage UPS driver was killed by police bullets.
This whole thing is monstrously incompetent. The police engaged in an intense shootout in standstill traffic, bystanders and the hostage be damned. It's a minor miracle that only one bystander was killed, the street was crowded with people trapped in the crossfire. I can't see any way for the UPS driver to survive this, they fired a massive volume of fire at the cab of the truck. The helicopter footage shows him trying to crawl out of the truck through a hail of police bullets, he had no chance. My bet is that the robbers did not kill or even injure anyone in the shootout, and that all fatalities and injuries were caused by police gunfire. The cynical side of my strongly suspects that there will be no criminal consequences for this reckless use of lethal force. |
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