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Old 20th February 2020, 11:14 AM   #201
ajelehtija
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And now the Scots consider joining us!
Skotland vil hellere være en del af Skandinavien
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I AGREE
IIRC Estonia has lobbied to be considered one of the Nordic countries since the 90s with little results in popular perception so I don't think Nordic countries are something one can just join. Though they might eventually as one of the reasons why there is such a concept as 'Nordic countries' is because Finland so closely aligned itself with Scandinavia after gaining independence that although it wasn't Scandinavian it warranted lumping them all together.
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Old 20th February 2020, 05:28 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You know, just for the halibut I'm going to point out that Vikings weren't a society. Their society were the Norse. Vikings were the sailors and warriors of the Norse. It's like calling kinda like calling all Americans "Marines."
*sigh* You are technically correct, which as we all know is the best kind of correct.
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Old 21st February 2020, 10:48 AM   #203
dann
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Originally Posted by ajelehtija View Post
IIRC Estonia has lobbied to be considered one of the Nordic countries since the 90s with little results in popular perception so I don't think Nordic countries are something one can just join. Though they might eventually as one of the reasons why there is such a concept as 'Nordic countries' is because Finland so closely aligned itself with Scandinavia after gaining independence that although it wasn't Scandinavian it warranted lumping them all together.

The reservations of the Nordic countries to this idea are probably due to their fear of Russia. It was a little different back in the day when they intended to provoke the Soviet Union. Finland was always careful about stepping lightly in order to avoid angering the powerful neighbor.

Quote:
The Swedish ambassador to Estonia, Mr. Anders Ljunggren, has claimed in 2015 that Estonia would have been considered a Nordic country by the other Nordic countries, "had the history been different...The differences between Estonia and Sweden have become less year by year, owing to the fact that the two countries have gotten to know each other more each year".

Criticism[edit]
The Tuglas foundation has claimed that the Nordic definition that Estonia is moving towards does not exist anymore, being a relic of past times.
Per Högselius wrote an opinion piece about the topic in 2003, looking at the idea as fringe, but concluding that "in time the Estonians might be able to persuade us".

Historic contacts with the Nordic Council[edit]
The Nordic Council had historically been a strong supporter of Estonian independence from the Soviet Union. The Nordic Council of Ministers' Office in Estonia was opened in spring 1991.
Nordic identity in Estonia: Modern political narrative (Wikipedia)

The Scots will probably have to step lightly, too.
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Last edited by dann; 21st February 2020 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 21st February 2020, 01:12 PM   #204
ajelehtija
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The reservations of the Nordic countries to this idea are probably due to their fear of Russia. It was a little different back in the day when they intended to provoke the Soviet Union. Finland was always careful about stepping lightly in order to avoid angering the powerful neighbor.
I don't think being "Nordic" is meaningful in that sense, ie that becoming or being perceived as Nordic would be a kin to joining NATO or something. Nordics are countries that are close enough to eachother and Finland qualifies because Finland was an integral part of Sweden for 600 years and as part of the Russian Empire was allowed to retain the old laws and broad autonomy to follow political developments in Scandinavia. Estonia was more Germanic in character as no matter who was the overlord in the Baltics the rulers there were always primarily the Baltic German aristocracy who held the locals in serfdom.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 06:04 AM   #205
dann
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Well, Estonia was Danish from 1219 to 1346, Swedish from 1561 to 1710 when it was occupied by Russia. And it became a part of the USSR towards the end of WW2. But that as well as the Germanic serfdom was a long time ago.
Portraying itself as a Nordic country is a way of stressing its independence from Russia without appearing to be an intolerably aggressive threat to the big neighbor.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd February 2020, 10:14 AM   #206
ajelehtija
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, Estonia was Danish from 1219 to 1346, Swedish from 1561 to 1710 when it was occupied by Russia. And it became a part of the USSR towards the end of WW2. But that as well as the Germanic serfdom was a long time ago.
Portraying itself as a Nordic country is a way of stressing its independence from Russia without appearing to be an intolerably aggressive threat to the big neighbor.
Yes, the Baltic German aristocracy swore fealty alternatively to Denmark, Sweden and Russia, who had the upper hand in the region, in exchange for protection of their priviliges and status. I'd say Estonia and the other Baltics affirming their independence is more connected to their NATO membership, while Estonia wanting to be seen as Nordic has more to do with image. But of course it's not something that's set in stone and there's no hard definition of 'Nordic' so that the most important part of being Nordic is that you're perceived to be as such.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 07:17 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, Estonia was Danish from 1219 to 1346, Swedish from 1561 to 1710 when it was occupied by Russia. And it became a part of the USSR towards the end of WW2. But that as well as the Germanic serfdom was a long time ago.
Portraying itself as a Nordic country is a way of stressing its independence from Russia without appearing to be an intolerably aggressive threat to the big neighbor.
It would be inaccurate to describe it as being Swedish. A more accurate description is that it was ruled by Sweden, or more specifically ruled by the Swedish monarch. Although ethnic Swedes settled in what would become Estonia, the area kept its existing laws, customs and was largely autonomous.

Compare this to Finland, also historically called Österland (Eastern Land), which was treated as any other part of the Swedish kingdom.
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Old 22nd February 2020, 08:38 PM   #208
ajelehtija
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It would be inaccurate to describe it as being Swedish. A more accurate description is that it was ruled by Sweden, or more specifically ruled by the Swedish monarch. Although ethnic Swedes settled in what would become Estonia, the area kept its existing laws, customs and was largely autonomous.

Compare this to Finland, also historically called Österland (Eastern Land), which was treated as any other part of the Swedish kingdom.
It's important to remember that these relationships were feudal, and to not transplant our modern nationalist ideas of statehood onto the past.
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