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Old Yesterday, 07:10 AM   #1561
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"But there cooooooouuuuuuuuuulllllllllddddddddd be a God so you can't say there isn't one."

Will it take a team of wild horses to drag Psion beyond that argument?
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Old Yesterday, 08:36 AM   #1562
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are making my case for me. Although things appear random they are generally the result of processes that we can't identify or measure. That is why when we toss a coin, we don't say that something called "random force" determines whether it lands heads or tails (even though it is far easier to assume that this is the case when we calculate the probabilities).

If we have to insist that "random force" is a real thing that exists before we can eliminate all gods from the equation then we are not making progress.
No, I am not making your case. Your hypothesis is nonsense.

While physical forces interact in an orderly fashion, there is no evidence that an intelligence ordered it. Nor is there any evidence it could. Just because bombarding neutrons at U235 atoms leads to a fission reaction or hydrogen bonding with oxygen results in a water molecule doesn't mean Batman did it.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM   #1563
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are making my case for me. Although things appear random they are generally the result of processes that we can't identify or measure. That is why when we toss a coin, we don't say that something called "random force" determines whether it lands heads or tails (even though it is far easier to assume that this is the case when we calculate the probabilities).

If we have to insist that "random force" is a real thing that exists before we can eliminate all gods from the equation then we are not making progress.
Randomness does seem part of reality - and that's been shown with empirical experiments and some thought experiments and some very tough mathematics.

This is about the best non-maths explanation I've read: https://www.americanscientist.org/ar...tum-randomness
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM   #1564
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are making my case for me. Although things appear random they are generally the result of processes that we can't identify or measure. That is why when we toss a coin, we don't say that something called "random force" determines whether it lands heads or tails (even though it is far easier to assume that this is the case when we calculate the probabilities).

If we have to insist that "random force" is a real thing that exists before we can eliminate all gods from the equation then we are not making progress.
I re-read this sentence and I can't overstate how wrong this is. While we don't have total understanding, the depth of our understanding is almost staggering. We have gone from very little to extensive knowledge.

We do understand many of the physical forces at play and we do measure it. We understand how many electrons, protons and neutrons is in any given element and most of those elements rate of radioactive decay. We know that Francium 223 has a half life of 22 minutes and tellurium-128 which has a half life 160 trillion times greater than the age of the universe. Our knowledge of these forces have not only led to breakthroughs in material sciences but the medical sciences.

I just read that we've been able to capture the moment atoms bonding together to create a molecule. Science has made stunning discoveries at almost an obscene rate these days and nowhere has it discovered a god.

So why the hell would we keep looking for one?

I mean if it does discover one, we won't deny it. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Old Yesterday, 02:34 PM   #1565
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Eventually "God of the Gaps" would talk itself into a corner where it had to either start making up gaps that weren't there or pretending gaps that had been filled where still there.

It's why apologists/believers always argue "what we know about the world" like it's still the 1600s and just ignored/deny most modern discoveries.
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM   #1566
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Eventually "God of the Gaps" would talk itself into a corner where it had to either start making up gaps that weren't there or pretending gaps that had been filled where still there.

It's why apologists/believers always argue "what we know about the world" like it's still the 1600s and just ignored/deny most modern discoveries.
No, they'll never run out of gaps. There will always be one more. This is like a toddler asking "why". Those apologists are now promoting deliberate wilfull ignorance.

My closest friend isn't really religious, but he's convinced there is a god. He's constantly saying things like science can't answer every question and mentioning the times science revises what we know.

I love the guy but I inwardly roll my eyes when he says things like that.
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Old Yesterday, 04:29 PM   #1567
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
QM is based on the foundation that certain processes are random. It works spectacularly well. But it doesn't prove that these processes are truly random. It only means that these processes can't be predicted.
What is the difference between these two things?
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM   #1568
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. Randomness exists. Toss a coin. Is it heads or tails? Can you predict how many heads or tails? Toss a million coins. Can you predict how many heads or tails?
I think you caught the wrong end of the argument here. We can predict how many heads or tails a fair coin will produce on a million tosses - about 500,000 of each, with a small margin of error. What we can't predict is the result of the next toss.
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Old Yesterday, 05:09 PM   #1569
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What is the difference between these two things?
He doesn't know, he just know God is... err excuse me "could" be in one of them.
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Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM   #1570
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
He doesn't know, he just know God is... err excuse me "could" be in one of them.
Let him answer the question himself.
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Old Yesterday, 05:43 PM   #1571
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let him answer the question himself.
We're 40 pages into this. Do you really think he's gonna start answering questions himself now?
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Old Yesterday, 05:45 PM   #1572
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're 40 pages into this. Do you really think he's gonna start answering questions himself now?
I'd like to wait and see.
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Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM   #1573
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Is a god creating the universe an example of religion becoming silly or what.

I don't think it's necessarily religion, like Spinoza's god.
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM   #1574
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A god creating the universe is not a priori silly, especially if you don't yet have the technology to explore other ways in which the universe might have come into being. And let's face it, it's only extremely recently when we've had that. Even just ten years ago psionl0 would have been more or less correct in saying that we had no idea what caused the universe to come into being.

But like I said, a meme which includes "teach this to your children" as one of its primary ideas will persist for long past its usefulness. Though we know now that it's at least theoretically possible for a universe to appear, uncaused, with no intervention by an intelligent entity, it becomes unparsimonious to propose such an entity's existence.
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