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Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM   #3001
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We don't need to rewrite the laws to account for pedantic hair splitting.

We don't have to throw "Duty to Retreat" in the mix we just have to go "You get to defend your castle when you're in the someone else's castle."

Maybe reasonable citizens could have reasonable rights if everybody wasn't trying to one up each other over the craziest possible niche scenario.

I shouldn't have to be a passive victim cowering under my bed waiting for the burgler to leave of his own accord because this broad can't keep track of where her apartment is at.
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Old Yesterday, 10:56 AM   #3002
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
You're saying Section A doesn't refer to burglary?
Section A refers to burglary, but the phrase "during the nighttime" does not refer to burglary. It only refers to theft and criminal mischief.

For example, you could read the list of offenses backwards: criminal mischief during the nighttime, theft during the nighttime, aggravated robbery, robbery, burglary, or arson.
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Old Yesterday, 11:12 AM   #3003
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Okay I understand your point and you may be right.
Quote:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, [or] theft during the nighttime...
That works.
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Old Yesterday, 11:43 AM   #3004
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I agree that we will all probably learn from the trial, but the way I am seeing it:

Her intent was to protect herself.

If you think you are walking into your own home, and someone who isn't supposed to be there, comes toward you, and doesn't stop, you can assume it is a threat.
And when you're wrong? Who's responsibility does it become when you kill someone?
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #3005
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the courts really applied "reasonably believed" to the level people are pretending it exists to in this thread there could literally not be the concept of a "crime" in any meaningful sense of the term. Simply declaring "I was wrong and thought the situation was X" would be an across the board, not counterable on any level, literal get out of jail free card.

Legal concepts like "Reasonably believed" don't, never have, and never will either be or be intended to mean "I can commit a crime and get off just by being wrong about the situation I'm in."
yup, I could be convinced that manslaughter might be more suitable, but she didn't just make one negligent decision, she made a series.
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Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM   #3006
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Then close the board. It's 95% masturbation.

The idea that we can't discuss what may have happened, or what a person may have thought, or alternate theories, etc., is mind - boggling to me.
He asked you to stop being obtuse. Why do you double down? It's clear that he meant use alternate hypotheses to try to alter the facts of the case, especially, in this instance, to exonerate the shooter.

Quote:
You have no interest in what Giyger's lawyers might come up with at trial?
Is that really what you were getting at originally, or is this just an excuse now? If the former, you should make that clear from the get-go.

Quote:
What she thought, not reality.
I swear, someone's going to have to change this tune. What she thought should be irrelevant unless she had good reason to think it. She didn't, and she was wrong. It's manslaughter at minimum.
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Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM   #3007
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I have a door exactly like those shown in the video and it behaves exactly like the doors in the videos. If you hold the door open far enough and let it go, the door will slam shut. If you hold it open only a small amount, it will swing closed, but often not click shut. The hinges swing the door closed, but don't force it shut like a spring arm in a fire door. The door isn't forced to an absolute closed position like a spring arm fire door. It only pushes the door, which, if it has enough momentum, usually results in the door slamming closed. If it does not have enough momentum, it may not close all the way.

We have been through this before. The objective evidence very strongly suggests that the door was not fully closed. Although we don't, and probably won't, have specific evidence proving the state of the door either way, the alternative hypothesis contradicts far too many facts of evidence.

This would need to be an intentional action. Someone walking through the door in a normal fashion isn't going to hold the door open a small amount and then release it.

What reason do you have for thinking that Jean would have done this?
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Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM   #3008
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm sure they'll blood test the dead black guy, don't worry.
Maybe he was on drugs, after all. That's sure help justify all this to the jury.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Absolutely. He didn't immediately start following the instructions of the cop/not cop who had illegally and mistakenly entered his house hadn't given him yet. This obviously caused the police officer to fear for her life, at which point anything she does is legal.
The scary thing is, that's not really far from the literal truth.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I was taught the phrase "to stop the threat" regarding use of a firearm in self defense. You are shooting to stop the threat. You are not shooting to kill anyone.

Yes you are aware that the firearm can cause death, but you did not shoot to cause death, but to stop a threat to yourself or your family.

If asked, you fired to end the threat.
Nonsense. It's not a baseball bat. It's a gun. Guns are deadly weapons designed specifically to kill. If you shoot at someone, not only is it possible that you're going to kill them, but it's the expected result if you know what you're doing. Shooting at someone is automatically an intent to kill.
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Old Yesterday, 12:22 PM   #3009
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I grow increasingly despondent over how much of law now revolves around what someone thought or meant or intended and leaving cold objective facts on the sideline.

Whether its religious nuts having "sincere belief" that Jesus wants rape victims to carry their assailant's baby to term, or Hobby Lobby (a fictitious entity) based on its "deep religious conviction" being able to legally treat a contraceptive like an abortofacient in terms of whether their employees may include them in their own private health care plans, or a "credible fear for my life" being a satisfactory reason to be standing over a dead body, it seems like it really isn't that hard to hire a half-ass lawyer and have some adequately workable verbal rote memorization capacity to basically do anything you like.
I don't think we should ignore intent or state of mind entirely, but I otherwise agree with your sentiments.
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Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM   #3010
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What reason do you have for thinking that Jean would have done this?
I used to do that all the time when I lived in an apartment where I knew most of my neighbors. My mom does it fairly often as well, especially if a neighbor may be coming by or if people are coming and going.

I would think living in a building so close to the DPD headquarters with plenty of cops in your building you might feel safe in leaving the door partially closed if you had friends who came around from time to time.
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Old Yesterday, 12:47 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This would need to be an intentional action. Someone walking through the door in a normal fashion isn't going to hold the door open a small amount and then release it.

What reason do you have for thinking that Jean would have done this?
This is really in the weeds, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it would have to be intentional.

I've had self closing doors and some where unreliable. The pneumatic door closing mechanism is often adjustable and needs to be just right. Too much and the door slams, making a nuisance. Too little and the door won't close forcefully enough to overcome the friction of the door spring latch and any incidental rubbing against the door frame. Over time these need to be adjusted to ensure proper use. Most people might not even notice or care to fix it.

I'd occasionally find my door not fully closed. The door would be nearly closed, but the door spring latch prevented the door from fully closing. The latch would retracted, resting against the wall of the spring box rather than in the hole holding the door shut. From afar, the door looked properly closed.
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #3012
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
That is an interesting case but I don't think it has much relevance to the Guyger case. Jean may have not been able to identify Guyger as a cop and thought she was a criminal bursting into his home and therefore ignored her commands. But in this case Guyger is (mostly) treated as a civilian anyway, so the question of whether she identified herself as cop is (mostly) irrelevant.

This case does present weird questions related to Guyger's role as a police officer, but I don't think those questions immediately relate to any other case. They are essentially unique to this pattern of events.
Exactly this is one of those cases where no matter who killed who no laws would have been broken.
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Old Yesterday, 01:09 PM   #3013
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly this is one of those cases where no matter who killed who no laws would have been broken.
At best, a mistaken self defense claim would be a mitigating factor. Maybe the difference between manslaughter and murder, depending on the reasonableness of her error and other circumstances.

Imperfect self defense is not a get out of jail free card.
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM   #3014
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly this is one of those cases where no matter who killed who no laws would have been broken.
That appears correct. I suppose that is what makes this such an interesting event to consider.
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Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #3015
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I used to do that all the time when I lived in an apartment where I knew most of my neighbors. My mom does it fairly often as well, especially if a neighbor may be coming by or if people are coming and going.

I would think living in a building so close to the DPD headquarters with plenty of cops in your building you might feel safe in leaving the door partially closed if you had friends who came around from time to time.

Why not just leave the door unlocked? Is there some reason to think that these apartment doors were some sort of hotel lockset that were permanently locked to the outside?

If they were then there would normally be a device like hotel rooms usually have, to prevent people from being inadvertently locked out when they are in and out of the room door for short periods.
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Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM   #3016
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is really in the weeds, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it would have to be intentional.

I've had self closing doors and some where unreliable. The pneumatic door closing mechanism is often adjustable and needs to be just right. Too much and the door slams, making a nuisance. Too little and the door won't close forcefully enough to overcome the friction of the door spring latch and any incidental rubbing against the door frame. Over time these need to be adjusted to ensure proper use. Most people might not even notice or care to fix it.

I'd occasionally find my door not fully closed. The door would be nearly closed, but the door spring latch prevented the door from fully closing. The latch would retracted, resting against the wall of the spring box rather than in the hole holding the door shut. From afar, the door looked properly closed.

Do we have any reason to believe that this door suffered from such a problem?

It would seem to be something that they would have verified rather early on in the investigation.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 PM   #3017
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why not just leave the door unlocked? Is there some reason to think that these apartment doors were some sort of hotel lockset that were permanently locked to the outside?

If they were then there would normally be a device like hotel rooms usually have, to prevent people from being inadvertently locked out when they are in and out of the room door for short periods.
I assumed as much since every apartment I have had since the 90s had such doors. I assumed that is why people are arguing over the stupid springs. If they could simply be left unlocked then the springs don't matter.
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Old Today, 03:33 AM   #3018
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
But she did so with the intent of self-defense.

My analogy with the bike only gets us to point where Guyger believes she is in her own home confronting a burglar. (I canít think of a better analogy, and stretching the bike analogy I think would just make things more confusing).

The complication with this case is that even if a person walks into their home and confronts a burglar and blows them away, they may still be guilty of murder. It becomes a question of self-defense. If we accept that Guyger actually thought she was in her own apartment and was confronting a burglar, we have to treat it as if she was actually in her own apartment and was confronting a burglar. The question then is whether, under those conditions, she had justification to use deadly force in defense of herself or her property.
No we don't.

There has been no evidence shared with the public at the moment that she was in any immediate danger that she needed to act in self defense.

Her believing she was walking into her own home is a red herring.

There are two issues of importance in considering her actions, the first is did she accidentally or deliberately shoot at someone, the evidence (her own words) are that she did intentionally shoot, the second issue is whether there were mitigating circumstances, for instance is there evidence her life was in imminent danger or was she in imminent danger of harm. So far we have no evidence for the second. With the information publicly available we know she intentionally shot someone who died as a result of that intention, in other words she murdered him.

Now of course I am sure there will be evidence that the public does not know about, or we don't have all the correct details about and I for one would absolutely consider her not guilty of murder if there was evidence she was in imminent danger and killing someone was an appropriate action in the circumstances.

But given what we know at the moment she murdered Jean.
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Old Today, 03:35 AM   #3019
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I shouldn't have to be a passive victim cowering under my bed waiting for the burgler to leave of his own accord because this broad can't keep track of where her apartment is at.
Is that the only alternative available to 'deadly force'?
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Old Today, 05:03 AM   #3020
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why not just leave the door unlocked?
Yep you never know when some police officer will use that as a justification to kill you with no consequence. Remember folks the cop is always right when they kill you, so lock and bar your doors at all times.
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Old Today, 05:32 AM   #3021
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do we have any reason to believe that this door suffered from such a problem?

It would seem to be something that they would have verified rather early on in the investigation.
Maybe it has been, maybe it hasn't. We have no idea, the police aren't turning evidence over to reporters. We'll learn more as the court case proceeds.
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Old Today, 06:16 AM   #3022
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Remember folks the cop is always right when they kill you, so lock and bar your doors at all times.
The number of wrongful death settlements and lawsuits tend to disagree with your first point.
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Old Today, 06:22 AM   #3023
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The number of wrongful death settlements and lawsuits tend to disagree with your first point.
"Sure the guys who murdered your family member will never face justice, but you can sue them for money!"
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Old Today, 06:48 AM   #3024
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Sure the guys who murdered your family member will never face justice, but you can sue them for money!"
The point being, that the cop can be wrong, but still kill you.

This case is looking like: Cop makes mistake, cop feels threatened, cop kills innocent person. The innocent person was wronged. The cop will face justice. The cop might get off.
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Old Today, 07:04 AM   #3025
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Your definition of "face justice" must be fundamentally different from mine.

If she walks, it's not justice.
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Old Today, 07:08 AM   #3026
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The point being, that the cop can be wrong, but still kill you.

This case is looking like: Cop makes mistake, cop feels threatened, cop kills innocent person. The innocent person was wronged. The will face justice. The cop might get off.
Ok so she'll face justice but not get justice.
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Old Today, 07:10 AM   #3027
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok so she'll face justice but not get justice.
Or what Belz said.
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Old Today, 07:17 AM   #3028
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok so she'll face justice but not get justice.
You don't have any desire to hear the evidence before saying that?
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Old Today, 07:27 AM   #3029
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
You don't have any desire to hear the evidence before saying that?
I think that posters have lost the ability to follow a conversation now.

It's your hypothetical and Joe's that I'm responding to. Obviously we don't know exactly what happens yet. But in the event that she is not convicted in court, my post stands.

Sheesh, I can't believe the things I have to explain to grown adults.
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Old Today, 07:35 AM   #3030
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Convictions for police involved shootings are such a statistical anomaly it's not even a hypothetical, it's a near certainty.
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Old Today, 09:15 AM   #3031
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I assumed as much since every apartment I have had since the 90s had such doors. I assumed that is why people are arguing over the stupid springs. If they could simply be left unlocked then the springs don't matter.

Experiences are different. I've lived in more than a few apartments myself. Closers were common. Spring hinges as closers were common. They are much less expensive than overhead closers, both to purchase and to install. All of those apartments had locksets which could be left unlocked if desired.

There are more reasons to want your door not to be left ajar than simply ensuring it was locked.
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Old Today, 11:26 AM   #3032
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Experiences are different.
Fair enough, but why are we talking about whether or not the closer was functioning if he could have just left his door unlocked? I haven't looked into the lockset at issue, but I'm assuming the closer is important because the lockset is of the auto locking variety.
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