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Old Today, 02:25 AM   #881
Archie Gemmill Goal
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If May loses then Tories already saying that Art 50 will need to be extended. Of course all EU27 would have to agree to that... could you imagine Boris having to go begging for more time?
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Old Today, 02:29 AM   #882
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Also think the timing of this leadership election is interesting. Not prepared to wait until she came back from her round of talks to see if they could get changes to the deal... the ERG are engineering, or at least attempting to engineer, a no-deal Brexit for their own ends.

Time will be burned going through this nonsense. Meanwhile Labour sit and do nothing.
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Old Today, 02:41 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If May loses then Tories already saying that Art 50 will need to be extended. Of course all EU27 would have to agree to that...
...unless we decide to extend it for exactly two years.

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Old Today, 02:48 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
...unless we decide to extend it for exactly two years.

Dave
I can imagine the letter.


Dear EU

We've changed our mind we aren't leaving.

Yours faithlessly and unsincerely

The UK



PTO



Dear EU

We are leaving.

Up yours, nah, nah!

Yours

Eton College
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Old Today, 03:10 AM   #885
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
...unless we decide to extend it for exactly two years.

Dave
Even better if BoJo's first act as PM is to withdraw Article 50 haha.

Given the ECJ ruling I can see the EU having to amend the agreement at some point to either clarify that the decision is irrevocable or that if an Art 50 declaration is revoked then another cannot be submitted for 5 years. Or something like that anyway.
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Old Today, 03:28 AM   #886
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Presumably by people who have never come within a thousand miles of Skibereen....
The surviving population of Skibbereen (and elsewhere in Ireland) were the ones who travelled these thousand intervening miles, harbouring thoughts of revenge on the way.
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Old Today, 03:36 AM   #887
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tory resentment of Irish power within EU

"The Irish really should know their place," one said

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-po...mpression=true
Aside from offensive, the statement is also ironic: the Irish do know their place and are using it to their full advantage.

It's almost as if, you know, the EU benefits its members.

Radical, huh?

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Old Today, 04:02 AM   #888
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Even better if BoJo's first act as PM is to withdraw Article 50 haha.
A few weeks ago, that would have been a joke. Now, it almost seems inevitable.

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Old Today, 04:10 AM   #889
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Can anyone give me a brief update on the democratic deficit?
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Old Today, 04:17 AM   #890
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If May loses then Tories already saying that Art 50 will need to be extended. Of course all EU27 would have to agree to that... could you imagine Boris having to go begging for more time?
I thought he quit again, has he been put back in again?

At least in the US once someone is out of our current administration they are not going to be back in later.
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Old Today, 04:30 AM   #891
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I thought he quit again, has he been put back in again?

At least in the US once someone is out of our current administration they are not going to be back in later.
I imagine he would be frontrunner for PM if TM loses the VONC. If he fancies it.

Of course it's fairly normal for ministers to be sacked and reinstated in other roles especially if the PM changes. Amber Rudd made a comeback in a matter of weeks.
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Old Today, 09:01 AM   #892
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I thought he quit again, has he been put back in again?

At least in the US once someone is out of our current administration they are not going to be back in later.
He quit as Foriegn Secretary but he is still an MP and member of the Conservative Party. Our Cabinet is drawn from MPs (and to a lesser extent Lords). The advantage of this is it means that the Great Offices of State can't be gifted to one's business buddies, the disadvantage is that I have to sadly admit that my fellow citizens did actually vote for the toussel haired buffoon.

Any Minister from the ruling party or coalition can be chosen as Prime Minister, there's a line of succession as to who takes over in an emergency, but that would be temporary and when a PM steps down the floor is open to anyone who wants to throw their hat into the ring, it's not limited to members of the Cabinet. In theory Members of the House of Lords could also be chosen but that would be against the convention established over the last century or so.
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Old Today, 09:17 AM   #893
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Absolutely does if you are referencing precedent.

The whole point of the EU is that you have multiple independent entities in a single bloc. It's on a scale that is unknown anywhere else. That's why you need a Parliament.
I don't see how that follows. What you need is some sort of international organisation that can do that. It doesn't need to be a parliament. That's why I said it doesn't change my general point.

Quote:
That doesn't make it a single country.
I didn't say it did. I'm saying that the ever-closer union thing seems to be pointing that way eventually. I think the people involved would like it sooner than later, but I'm not sure the actual citizens would.
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Old Today, 09:18 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can anyone give me a brief update on the democratic deficit?
Start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...European_Union

Especially, for me, the role of the EC.
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Old Today, 09:23 AM   #895
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...European_Union

Especially, for me, the role of the EC.
Did you hear a rush of air above your head when you posted that?
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Old Today, 09:25 AM   #896
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Did you hear a rush of air above your head when you posted that?

My thanks. So glad someone got it.
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Old Today, 09:42 AM   #897
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't see how that follows. What you need is some sort of international organisation that can do that. It doesn't need to be a parliament. That's why I said it doesn't change my general point.
You would prefer an unelected shady cabal of bureaucrats to a Parliament?


Quote:
I didn't say it did. I'm saying that the ever-closer union thing seems to be pointing that way eventually. I think the people involved would like it sooner than later, but I'm not sure the actual citizens would.
Which of the EU27 do you think will be first to give up it's sovereignty in its entirety in order to facilitate the EU becoming a single country?
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Old Today, 09:55 AM   #898
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Did you hear a rush of air above your head when you posted that?
Er... no actually. What'd I miss?

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You would prefer an unelected shady cabal of bureaucrats to a Parliament?
Well, leaving aside the false dichotomy there, I can't say that I'd prefer it, but the point is that a parliament is not needed.

Quote:
Which of the EU27 do you think will be first to give up it's sovereignty in its entirety in order to facilitate the EU becoming a single country?
I guess the idea is that they all do it together.
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Old Today, 10:14 AM   #899
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Er... no actually. What'd I miss?
The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic

Add into that that this is the second time since the public actually got a say that the Tories alone are voting for the leader of the country but, oddly, a second vote for the people to decide on brexit is somehow not democratic and the irony is almost an emetic.
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Old Today, 10:32 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic

Add into that that this is the second time since the public actually got a say that the Tory's alone are voting for the leader of the country but, oddly, a second vote for the people to decide on brexit is somehow not democratic and the irony is almost an emetic.
As you asked the question, how does it stack up against the legislative and executive bodies of the EU?

The Tory Party won* the previous election and therefore got to form a government. As Tory MPs are elected then it makes sense that they also get to elect their leader. Maybe that is even more in keeping with representative democracy that only MPs can do this rather than those who pay membership fees to parties. Other parliamentary systems have similar conventions such as the Irish parliament as the party elected Leo Varadkar PM.

* they got the most seats if not a majority.
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Old Today, 10:36 AM   #901
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic
Ah. I didn't understand your post in context and took it literally. Stupid internet.
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Old Today, 10:37 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
As you asked the question, how does it stack up against the legislative and executive bodies of the EU?
Er, I didn't ask a question, that I'm aware of.


Quote:
The Tory Party won* the previous election and therefore got to form a government. As Tory MPs are elected then it makes sense that they also get to elect their leader. Maybe that is even more in keeping with representative democracy that only MPs can do this rather than those who pay membership fees to parties. Other parliamentary systems have similar conventions such as the Irish parliament as the party elected Leo Varadkar PM.

* they got the most seats if not a majority.

I make no comment as to the appropriateness of the process, I just note that the difference in apparent public opinion between the two differing forms of representative democracy is stark.

I didn't think I'd have to explain myself this much, to be fair.
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Old Today, 10:39 AM   #903
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Er, I didn't ask a question, that I'm aware of.
This was where it started....

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can anyone give me a brief update on the democratic deficit?
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Old Today, 10:42 AM   #904
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This was where it started....
Oh, fair point.

It was intended to be entirely rhetorical, which is why I didn't register it as a question. Odd.
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Old Today, 10:44 AM   #905
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Oh, fair point.

It was intended to be entirely rhetorical, which is why I didn't register it as a question. Odd.
Well at least your attempt at sarcasm confused the both of us.
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Old Today, 10:46 AM   #906
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well at least your attempt at sarcasm confused the both of us.
Yeah, I really shouldn't try to do funny.
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Old Today, 10:50 AM   #907
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Er... no actually. What'd I miss?

Well, leaving aside the false dichotomy there, I can't say that I'd prefer it, but the point is that a parliament is not needed.
If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.

Quote:
I guess the idea is that they all do it together.
Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?

The direction of travel for the EU is to INCREASE the number of members not reduce it.
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Old Today, 10:53 AM   #908
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.
I'd say I'm concerned about the EC more than complaining about it since I don't live in the EU nor do I feel the consequences of its so-called democratic deficit.

Still, you could have representatives appointed by the elected members of government in the various EU states. A parliament might be preferable, but it isn't the only workable solution.

Quote:
Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?
It was a joke, Archie. Hence the smiley. If you want me to be serious, you have a very good point there.
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Old Today, 11:06 AM   #909
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If you look back to what I originally said, I stated that it is needed partly because the organisations in the club are committed to a democratic approach. The fact you complain about the EC kind of emphasises that point.



Really? So you can't persuade 1 to do it but you can persuade 27 to do it simultaneously?

The direction of travel for the EU is to INCREASE the number of members not reduce it.
I was talking to a Swedish ex-pat who has lived in the US for 20-30 years. He thinks Sweden should follow the UK.

I asked why and his main sticking point was that the EU had required driver's licenses to expire if you haven't lived in the country of issuance for ten years. I was stunned. Who cares about having a drivers license in a country you haven't lived in for over ten years? You can still drive when you visit. You can get a new license if you eventually return for a longer period. It just seemed like such a minor thing, but he thought it was worth it to send the economy into the dirt for 5 years just to fix that sort of thing. That was his estimate, 5 year downturn.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.
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Old Today, 11:16 AM   #910
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.
That sounds pretty rational to me. Someone paid Arron Banks (A man who isn't in the news half as much as he should be) (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...campaign-funds)


It's been a very, very good year for Vlad.
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Old Today, 11:39 AM   #911
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.
No, I think you're right on the money.
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Old Today, 12:28 PM   #912
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I was talking to a Swedish ex-pat who has lived in the US for 20-30 years. He thinks Sweden should follow the UK.

I asked why and his main sticking point was that the EU had required driver's licenses to expire if you haven't lived in the country of issuance for ten years. I was stunned. Who cares about having a drivers license in a country you haven't lived in for over ten years? You can still drive when you visit. You can get a new license if you eventually return for a longer period. It just seemed like such a minor thing, but he thought it was worth it to send the economy into the dirt for 5 years just to fix that sort of thing. That was his estimate, 5 year downturn.

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think Russia is dismantling the EU via social media.
Admittedly why should he care about something as irrelevant to him as the Swedish Economy? Send it into the crapper for the next 500 years, as long as he can drive there if he moves back it is worth it. He might be much more able to afford servants in such a retirement move if they destroy their economy.

You have to take a proper view of such things to understand the logic.
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Old Today, 02:03 PM   #913
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Why sack May when the next PM is going to be just as incompetent at trying to achieve the impossible?
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Old Today, 02:10 PM   #914
Darat
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
The UK is currently indulging in another vote to see who gets to lead the country.

The people who called for the vote wrote to the head of the 1922 committee, a Toy party insider group that's rather shadowy and steers the Troy party without any input from the electorate.

The vote to decide who is in charge of the UK will only be open to Tory party MPs.

Given that the common refrain from those in favour of brexit is that being in Europe reduces the input of the electorate on the running of the country, I find the current situation to be sickeningly ironic

Add into that that this is the second time since the public actually got a say that the Tories alone are voting for the leader of the country but, oddly, a second vote for the people to decide on brexit is somehow not democratic and the irony is almost an emetic.
I think the way to put it is that out of the entire country of over 60 million we let potentially just 48 people decide who is allowed to be prime minister.
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