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Old 18th August 2012, 10:38 AM   #41
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The numerous soccer fields around here lie fallow, 5 of 7 days. They can't be used for anything else but soccer.
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Old 18th August 2012, 12:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by IMST View Post
Did I disagree with the location objection? I said I don't know the area and couldn't possibly comment.

Hiking (at least in nature) requires transportation, cycling requires a bike, equestrian requires a damn horse. Soccer requires an open space and one in 22 people having a ball. Soccer's a team sport, which gives peer pressure to work hard where hiking, cycling and equestrian often don't. I would love to see the reaction from a poor parent when you suggest that they have their kids take up equestrian instead of soccer.
And kids don't have to be transported to the soccer field and back? The soccer field does not require watering, treatment with herbicides to keep it only grass, gopher abatement etc.?

Not all of us, even a children, are that well suited to team sports. What I remember from them was being chosen last in desperation and kept from the action to whatever degree was possible, thus insuring that I remained out of the loop.

As to hiking etc., parents could actually take their kids hiking, and no, I wouldn't suggest to parents that their kids get a horse. My enthusiasm for hiking has kept me fit, even though I had bypass surgery in 1999 and am approaching my 69th. birthday. Oh, BTW, before you seize on my coronary problems as a sign that I wasn't taking care of myself, I should point out that I was hiking before the surgery and that, considering that my mother and two older brothers also had coronary problems, the likely culprit in this case is heredity.
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Old 18th August 2012, 12:10 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
One common method of mosquito abatement is to drop some "mosquito eater" fish into any large puddles. Unless you happened to come across them while they were doing it, you wouldn't really notice anything out of the ordinary.
They do apparently use mosquito fish in the creek (which isn't entirely seasonal) at Hahamongna. Do you know what the cost is for maintaining a population of such fish, or do they maintain themselves?
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Old 18th August 2012, 12:16 PM   #44
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I know that soccer fields in the larger cities (I speak only of OK and TX from experience) are reserved for soccer. Period. Any other activity on them draws a visit from officialdom--even if they are NOT in use, and are not scheduled for use...
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Old 18th August 2012, 12:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
The numerous soccer fields around here lie fallow, 5 of 7 days. They can't be used for anything else but soccer.
I'm rather surprised at that. At the public meeting, they were talking about various established fields being used for soccer, football and baseball. However, as far as I know, the fields the city council want to put in a Hahamongna were for soccer only.
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Old 18th August 2012, 01:25 PM   #46
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I actually live across the street from a high school soccer\football\running track and I see people out there all of the time. It's one of the reasons that I asked about them charging to use the facilities because the school does just that for other local schools that don't have the facilities to use it during the week for practice and games (and the high school itself doesn't have its own soccer or football teams, just a track team) and local soccer and football leagues (kids and adults) use it on the weekends. Just last week there was a pee-wee football match of about 6 teams in a row. There's also the occasional event like the breast cancer walk-a-thon and so on. All of those organizations rent out the facility from the school.

It's set up to be maintenance free with astroturf. All I've seen is the occasional weed whacking on the hillside surrounding it.
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Old 18th August 2012, 02:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
They do apparently use mosquito fish in the creek (which isn't entirely seasonal) at Hahamongna. Do you know what the cost is for maintaining a population of such fish, or do they maintain themselves?
If the creek dries up, the next time it's wet they'll probably throw in another bucket of a hundred fish or so. I don't know what that costs, but feeder goldfish are sixteen cents apiece retail, so I'd guess way under twenty bucks. Maintenance is to ignore them, though I suppose someone might check on them if they weren't controlling the mosquito population. By the end of the summer, there may be thousands of fish.
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Old 18th August 2012, 03:52 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by swright777 View Post
Did you stop to think that maybe the mosquito control program (if there is one) is working?
These two later posts seem to answer your question. This appears to be a low cost solution.

Post # 43: They do apparently use mosquito fish in the creek (which isn't entirely seasonal) at Hahamongna. Do you know what the cost is for maintaining a population of such fish, or do they maintain themselves?

Post # 47: If the creek dries up, the next time it's wet they'll probably throw in another bucket of a hundred fish or so. I don't know what that costs, but feeder goldfish are sixteen cents apiece retail, so I'd guess way under twenty bucks. Maintenance is to ignore them, though I suppose someone might check on them if they weren't controlling the mosquito population. By the end of the summer, there may be thousands of fish.

Last edited by TimCallahan; 18th August 2012 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 18th August 2012, 03:56 PM   #49
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Yes but especially in California, wetlands are protected. Seasonal stuff is called 'vernal pools'. Seems any species in the pond is endangered- frogs, shrimps, weeds like Mesa Mint. The city will need an Environmental Impact Report. Look into it if you want to put a stop to the soccer field.
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Old 18th August 2012, 05:50 PM   #50
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Amplifying what casebro said, it appears that "no net loss of wetlands" is federal policy under the Clean Water Act, and possibly under other federal law as well. Anything that supports fish is surely wetland. Maybe cities get a break, but if this were a developer, they'd, at the very least, be required to replace the lost wetlands with new wetlands of (theoretically) equal quality. I don't think that cities do get a break. I think that, if they're doing this by the book, this will be a hard project to get approved and expensive because of the requirement for new wetlands creation. Has the EPA signed off on this? They're supposed to.
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Old 18th August 2012, 05:59 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Yes but especially in California, wetlands are protected. Seasonal stuff is called 'vernal pools'. Seems any species in the pond is endangered- frogs, shrimps, weeds like Mesa Mint. The city will need an Environmental Impact Report. Look into it if you want to put a stop to the soccer field.
The latest on the city's plans for Hahamongna Park is that everything is on hold pending an E.I.R.

I might note that in the later public meetings, nobody from the public has gotten up to speak in support the idea of soccer fields at that location. Perhaps those from the American Soccer Association (or whatever other group would be in favor of the fields) is afraid of being lynched by everyone else at the meeting; but this seems like a really unpopular idea. Of course, cutting down the mature shade trees on Colorado Blvd. was also extremely unpopular until the city council brought in their stooges at the misnamed and poorly publicized meeting at which they decided to butcher the trees. I have little trust in and less respect for this particular city council.
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Old 18th August 2012, 07:20 PM   #52
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Looking at the master plan, it looks like they want to dig the existing wetland area deeper and smaller, using the dirt to make some higher, flatter places. The soccer fields may be the least of your problems.

If you want to have an effect on the process, the EIR is a good lever. You'll have to pore over a lot of dull text to see if there's something significant they missed, though. If there's some recreational activity that has historically gone on in the park, and they didn't mention it, get the people that do that together.
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Old 18th August 2012, 08:15 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
And kids don't have to be transported to the soccer field and back? The soccer field does not require watering, treatment with herbicides to keep it only grass, gopher abatement etc.?

Not all of us, even a children, are that well suited to team sports. What I remember from them was being chosen last in desperation and kept from the action to whatever degree was possible, thus insuring that I remained out of the loop.

As to hiking etc., parents could actually take their kids hiking, and no, I wouldn't suggest to parents that their kids get a horse. My enthusiasm for hiking has kept me fit, even though I had bypass surgery in 1999 and am approaching my 69th. birthday. Oh, BTW, before you seize on my coronary problems as a sign that I wasn't taking care of myself, I should point out that I was hiking before the surgery and that, considering that my mother and two older brothers also had coronary problems, the likely culprit in this case is heredity.
I think you're reading more into what I typed than I intended. I don't know enough about the soccer fields in question to know if the parents would need to transport their kids there. I always walked to practice and home matches when I was a kid. I know not everyone is well suited to team sports. I'm not well suited to individual ones, particularly non competitive ones. Too easy to quit on myself. I had no plans to give you a hard time about your coronary problems. I have danger zone cholesterol through heredity despite being a participant in sports most of my life and a vegetarian for my entire adult life. In the Seattle area where conditions are usually wet enough that the trouble with our fields is too much water, most of our recently installed fields are synthetic. No watering ever, obviously.
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Old 18th August 2012, 08:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
The numerous soccer fields around here lie fallow, 5 of 7 days. They can't be used for anything else but soccer.
I played Ultimate frisbee for 15 years. I'd estimate that over 90% of the games I ever played were on soccer fields. When I was a teenager I used to ref Lacrosse for gas money. Every game I ever reffed was on a soccer field.
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Old 19th August 2012, 09:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The latest on the city's plans for Hahamongna Park is that everything is on hold pending an E.I.R.

I might note that in the later public meetings, nobody from the public has gotten up to speak in support the idea of soccer fields at that location. Perhaps those from the American Soccer Association (or whatever other group would be in favor of the fields) is afraid of being lynched by everyone else at the meeting; but this seems like a really unpopular idea. Of course, cutting down the mature shade trees on Colorado Blvd. was also extremely unpopular until the city council brought in their stooges at the misnamed and poorly publicized meeting at which they decided to butcher the trees. I have little trust in and less respect for this particular city council.
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Reading in "I Love Paul Revere Whether He Rode or Not", the author mentions that doing odd things like unpublicizing important town meetings to keep the townspeople from interfering with the pre-agreed policies is the American Way, from way back when.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:38 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
The latest on the city's plans for Hahamongna Park is that everything is on hold pending an E.I.R.

I might note that in the later public meetings, nobody from the public has gotten up to speak in support the idea of soccer fields at that location. Perhaps those from the American Soccer Association (or whatever other group would be in favor of the fields) is afraid of being lynched by everyone else at the meeting; but this seems like a really unpopular idea. Of course, cutting down the mature shade trees on Colorado Blvd. was also extremely unpopular until the city council brought in their stooges at the misnamed and poorly publicized meeting at which they decided to butcher the trees. I have little trust in and less respect for this particular city council.
You might want to look at how the city acquired the property, if it was a gift there might be restrictions written in the deed.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
You might want to look at how the city acquired the property, if it was a gift there might be restrictions written in the deed.
The ownership and acquisition of the various properties involved is all in the Master Plan at
http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/PublicWorks/HWPMP/
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:55 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by IMST View Post
I think you're reading more into what I typed than I intended. I don't know enough about the soccer fields in question to know if the parents would need to transport their kids there. I always walked to practice and home matches when I was a kid. I know not everyone is well suited to team sports. I'm not well suited to individual ones, particularly non competitive ones. Too easy to quit on myself. I had no plans to give you a hard time about your coronary problems. I have danger zone cholesterol through heredity despite being a participant in sports most of my life and a vegetarian for my entire adult life. In the Seattle area where conditions are usually wet enough that the trouble with our fields is too much water, most of our recently installed fields are synthetic. No watering ever, obviously.
Perhaps I over reacted. Here is a map of Hahamongna. It's outside most residential areas. The residential areas close to it are exclusive, pricey neighborhoods. Most of those using soccer fields there would have to be driven.

You certainly have my sympathies regarding your cholesterol level. Has your doctor put you on any statin drugs?

Feel free to beam any of your excess water to Southern California. Oh, wait; that only works on Star Trek. Drat!
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:59 AM   #59
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tsig and TjW, thanks. I'll look into the Master Plan etc. Though I'm not really in the forefront of this fight, I know some people who are. I'll ask them about how things stand.
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Old 19th August 2012, 11:16 AM   #60
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How can they possibly be considering putting soccer fields into such a hotbed of paranormal and demonic activity???

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Old 19th August 2012, 11:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by billw View Post
How can they possibly be considering putting soccer fields into such a hotbed of paranormal and demonic activity???

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Oooh! Spooky! I'd forgotten about all the New Age / psychic lore on the area. Of course, if name something "Devil's Gate," you'r opening the floodgates, so to speak.
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Old 19th August 2012, 01:21 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Oooh! Spooky! I'd forgotten about all the New Age / psychic lore on the area. Of course, if name something "Devil's Gate," you'r opening the floodgates, so to speak.
Indeed you are. I live by Hell's Gate for 20 years. No soccer (thank goodness) but a lot of dead animals, Santaria-style.
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Old 19th August 2012, 02:25 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Perhaps I over reacted. Here is a map of Hahamongna. It's outside most residential areas. The residential areas close to it are exclusive, pricey neighborhoods. Most of those using soccer fields there would have to be driven.

You certainly have my sympathies regarding your cholesterol level. Has your doctor put you on any statin drugs?

Feel free to beam any of your excess water to Southern California. Oh, wait; that only works on Star Trek. Drat!
I'm only 30. Generally considered too early to do much with drug control on it.

And we're using most of that excess water to run our hydroelectric dams. Don't wanna get Enron'd up here.

ETA: Looked at the map. The park looks to have large residential neighborhoods on either side of it. Looks like a decent spot to try to gather people. Still wouldn't be able to assess the environmental impact, I'm just not that knowledgeable about it.
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Old 19th August 2012, 02:40 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TjW View Post
The ownership and acquisition of the various properties involved is all in the Master Plan at
http://www.ci.pasadena.ca.us/PublicWorks/HWPMP/
Yes, it tells me more than I ever wanted to know about the watershed of Devil's Gate dam.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 19th August 2012, 02:41 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Indeed you are. I live by Hell's Gate for 20 years. No soccer (thank goodness) but a lot of dead animals, Santaria-style.
Was there a high school that was regularly attacked my supernatural monsters around?
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