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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:42 AM   #481
Beeyon
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
There is much more to consider than just the delay. ...
None of the identified elements are relevant to the existence of an "original 302." Your comment was an offshoot of another conversation, and my response was mostly directed towards that, hence the focus on the delay. But we can talk about the wider situation if you like.

Quote:
Strzok, Page and Priestap's emails and texts discussing how they could interview Flynn and avoid admonishments or state them without cuing him that he was the target of the questioning, and questioning if there goal was to get him to lie or to get him fired.
Just as a side note, I think the Priestrap notes are hardly damning. They ask, not conclude the goal. And they also say "protect our institution by not playing games." If you're going to take the intent of the notes seriously, you need to take that seriously too.

Quote:
You can call it a conspiracy theory if you like, but these facts along with the FBI having no reason to interview Flynn about his phone call with Kislyak was enough for a US Attorney to recommend dropping the DOJ's case against Flynn.
This is just wrong. The NSA lied to the VP about communications with a Russian agent. In the world of national security, that is a VERY good reason to go ask questions. Repeat after me: "the FBI doesn't just investigate crimes, they also have a counter-intelligence function."



Quote:
Back to what I posted earlier about Comey, McCabe, Yates and the 302. Comey and McCabe were given the 302 the day of the interview and to Yates on the 26th, if not earlier.

Page 8 and 9 of this PDF.
Thanks for the cite! That does suggest the existence of a draft, but doesn't actually say they handed it over to anyone.

Originally Posted by Bogative's Link
And they interviewed him completely, went through it all, did not show him the transcript, IIIIIIII or transcripts, and then came back and drafted a 302 and reported to me and the Deputy Director
So there's no reason to believe this is final work product. I know that you guys like the phrase "original 302", but it's starting to conclusively look like "initial draft 302" is a lot more honest way to describe it.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:53 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That aside, why do you think a dunce cap is necessary for someone who accepts an admission of lying as evidence of a lie?
I actually think he has a point here. Maybe it'd be better to here it described from someone not on Trumps side.

People plea guilty sometimes when they don't do it. The kid in Alvarez v. Brownsville plead to assaulting a police officer despite him not touching the guy. When a prosecutor is coming at you, it can be really scary, and the plea bargain can be very tempting. Flynn probably was also motivated for the sake of his kid. It's at least enough to be cautious about giving full weight to a plea in the court of public opinion.

That said, there is evidence of Flynn lying: the official 302, which the judge has determined to be supported by the original interview notes. That's been enough to convict plenty of other people for this crime, it shouldn't be any different for a friend of the president.

Bill Barr could have tied the Flynn motion to the institution of a number of policies that are within his power like "We won't prosecute 1001", or "We require the FBI to record all interviews", or "We will provide all Brady material prior to plea bargains", but he didn't. This wasn't a matter of justice, it was a matter of getting Trump's buddy off the hook.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:00 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
I actually think he has a point here. Maybe it'd be better to here it described from someone not on Trumps side.

People plea guilty sometimes when they don't do it. The kid in Alvarez v. Brownsville plead to assaulting a police officer despite him not touching the guy. When a prosecutor is coming at you, it can be really scary, and the plea bargain can be very tempting. Flynn probably was also motivated for the sake of his kid. It's at least enough to be cautious about giving full weight to a plea in the court of public opinion.
I don’t dispute any of that.

But there’s a big difference between being cautious and throwing out the guilty please altogether and claiming that it isn’t evidence of anything, as Zig has repeatedly done here.

Even in the case you cited above, the fact that the defendant admitted to the crime still counts as evidence that he committed the crime. It just so happens that there was other, far more persuasive evidence that he didn’t commit the crime.

No such evidence exists in the Flynn case. Just innuendo and conspiracy theories.

ETA: And there’s also the context of socioeconomic status to be considered. A wealthy and powerful middle-aged white guy isn’t going to have the same risk of being railroaded by an overzealous prosecutor as a poor minority teenager.

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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:05 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
You can call it a conspiracy theory if you like
Thanks!
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:14 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Just as a side note, I think the Priestrap notes are hardly damning. They ask, not conclude the goal. And they also say "protect our institution by not playing games." If you're going to take the intent of the notes seriously, you need to take that seriously too.
It's also worth pointing out - again - that what is being pointed to as a sure sign of nefarious intent and rules being stretched or broken is 100% legal and, in fact, standard operating procedure.

It's perfectly legitimate to criticise this tactic, but pointing to it and going "this perfectly normal thing is evidence that this situation is extraordinary" is just silly.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:41 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That aside, why do you think a dunce cap is necessary for someone who accepts an admission of lying as evidence of a lie?
Because the conservative media echo chamber tells him so.

ETA: Maybe that's more accurately the conspiracy theory echo chamber. There appears to be quite a bit of overlap since 2008 or so.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 03:16 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Just as a side note, I think the Priestrap notes are hardly damning. They ask, not conclude the goal. And they also say "protect our institution by not playing games." If you're going to take the intent of the notes seriously, you need to take that seriously too.
I take them seriously, especially the part where he asks if the goal is to get Flynn fired. To me that shows nefarious intent, it's not the FBI's mission to get a political appointee fired.



Quote:
This is just wrong. The NSA lied to the VP about communications with a Russian agent. In the world of national security, that is a VERY good reason to go ask questions. Repeat after me: "the FBI doesn't just investigate crimes, they also have a counter-intelligence function."
Jeffrey Jensen disagrees with you, why should I believe you over him?





Quote:
Thanks for the cite! That does suggest the existence of a draft, but doesn't actually say they handed it over to anyone.
Correct, but the content of the draft was good enough for Comey to use to brief the White House Counsel with, why wasn't it good enough to file four days later, instead of three weeks later, as required by the FBI? I'm not buying the claim of poor grammar and spelling, Strzok's text message suggests it was more than that.


Quote:
So there's no reason to believe this is final work product. I know that you guys like the phrase "original 302", but it's starting to conclusively look like "initial draft 302" is a lot more honest way to describe it.
We may find out soon enough now that Wray and Jensen are investigating what happened in the FBI's investigation into Flynn.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:20 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
I take them seriously, especially the part where he asks if the goal is to get Flynn fired. To me that shows nefarious intent, it's not the FBI's mission to get a political appointee fired.
So how do you reconcile them? How can they be simultaneously worried about doing things by the book and also improperly gunning for a political appointee?

Quote:
Jeffrey Jensen disagrees with you, why should I believe you over him?
Because Jensen is working on behalf of Barr and Barr is plainly corrupt based on this incident alone.

If the FBI failing to record interviews is a problem, Barr can write a memo and end that.

If the DoJ charging people based on 1001 is a problem, Barr can write a memo and end that.

If the DoJ not giving people Brady material prior to plea bargains is a problem, Barr can write a memo and end that.

Instead he intervened in one case involving a presidential favorite. He is not addressing the supposed underlying issues. His failure to act in the interest of Justice for everyone rather than juat the president's friends demonstrates that he and the political appointees implementing his will are not credible or interested in justice.

Quote:
Correct, but the content of the draft was good enough for Comey to use to brief the White House Counsel with, why wasn't it good enough to file four days later, instead of three weeks later, as required by the FBI? I'm not buying the claim of poor grammar and spelling, Strzok's text message suggests it was more than that.
Do you believe the FBI has to maintain all intermediate work product, or just the ones involving Flynn?

If the FBI not keeping intermediate work products is a problem, Barr can write a memo and end that.

Edit:

What do you mean the contents of the draft? Your document says the agented "reported" on the interview (that probably means oral reporting), and then Yates talked to the WH counsel. Nowhere in there is the draft used for anything. At the the point of Yates talk with the WH counsel, they hadn't even violated any policy because they had 2 more days to turn in the 302!

Quote:
We may find out soon enough now that Wray and Jensen are investigating what happened in the FBI's investigation into Flynn.
It's completely implausible that the Jensen disclosures weren't tied to some internal analysis, and that was conspicuously not released. I'd be happy to see their reports even if they (Jensen, at least) are biased actors, but I suspect we'll never see anything from this administration.

Last edited by Beeyon; 23rd May 2020 at 04:26 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 03:09 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
So how do you reconcile them? How can they be simultaneously worried about doing things by the book and also improperly gunning for a political appointee?
They had discussed two different elements of the upcoming interview, one of which was potential violations of the Logan Act. Considering the history of that act, trying to catch Flynn violating would be considered "playing games" that the institution would need to be protected from.


Quote:
Because Jensen is working on behalf of Barr and Barr is plainly corrupt based on this incident alone.
Jensen is willing to subvert justice because of who he is working for? That's what you described earlier as conspiratorial thinking.


Quote:
Instead he intervened in one case involving a presidential favorite. He is not addressing the supposed underlying issues. His failure to act in the interest of Justice for everyone rather than juat the president's friends demonstrates that he and the political appointees implementing his will are not credible or interested in justice.
Do they not deserve justice because they are friends with the president? The investigation has already outed one "low-level" (as the NYT puts it) FBI lawyer for intentionally leaving out information to deceive the FISC. A separate IG report has found 17 instances of inaccuracies and omissions by the FBI regarding Trump's friends. That doesn't include the FBI agents and DOJ officials that were sent down the road during the SCO investigation. It would be an injustice if Barr wasn't investigating.


Quote:
What do you mean the contents of the draft? Your document says the agented "reported" on the interview (that probably means oral reporting), and then Yates talked to the WH counsel. Nowhere in there is the draft used for anything. At the the point of Yates talk with the WH counsel, they hadn't even violated any policy because they had 2 more days to turn in the 302!
It's possible they did not use the draft document and only used their memory. The FBI Director, acting AG and an official from the National Security Division using memory only while talking to the White House Counsel about a counterintelligence investigation into the sitting National Security Advisor is counter intuitive, but so is the idea of an FBI Director setting up an ambush interview of the same NSA and that happened. It appears Comey doesn't mind going a little unorthodox when it comes to Trump's friends.
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Old Yesterday, 05:34 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
They had discussed two different elements of the upcoming interview, one of which was potential violations of the Logan Act. Considering the history of that act, trying to catch Flynn violating would be considered "playing games" that the institution would need to be protected from.
I don't quite understand what you're saying. It sounds like you think "playing games" was some disconnected note. Have you seen it?

Originally Posted by Priestrap notes
If weíre seen as playing games, WH will be furious

Protect our institution by not playing games
That's an open admonition to do things by the book. Why are you giving that no weight when you interpret "What's urgent? Truth/Admission or to get him to lie, so we can prosecute him or get him fired?" as definitive evidence of an intent to nail him?

Quote:
Jensen is willing to subvert justice because of who he is working for? That's what you described earlier as conspiratorial thinking.
I note that you have no response to the evidence of Barr's selective justice, and instead hide behind Jensen role. I don't believe we actually saw any of the Jensen work product, and instead only got the letter from Shea providing the materials identified by Jensen. So, I'm guessing you're really saying that since Shea (a US Attorney) decided to provide the Jensen disclosure material, that his independent decision carries weight?

Well guess what, Barry has claimed the decision to move to dismiss the Flynn charges was his.

Quote:
Interviewer: Just to be clear, you said this was your decision.

Barr: Uh-huh.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/attorne...ns-transcript/

Once Barr decided to do this, everyone else's actions in support of it (including turning over the materials necessary to justify Barr'a "rationale") was just following orders.

Agents of a Attorney General pushing selective justice should be suspect.

Quote:
Do they not deserve justice because they are friends with the president? The investigation has already outed one "low-level" (as the NYT puts it) FBI lawyer for intentionally leaving out information to deceive the FISC. A separate IG report has found 17 instances of inaccuracies and omissions by the FBI regarding Trump's friends. That doesn't include the FBI agents and DOJ officials that were sent down the road during the SCO investigation. It would be an injustice if Barr wasn't investigating.
By all means, friends of the president deserve justice. I can agree with that. Can you agree that everyone deserves the same justice?

Assuming you do, why isn't Barr taking steps to reform the system to stop another Flynn?

- Record Interviews
- Brady before Plea deals
- Define limited scope to materiality under 1001
- Keep all intermediate work products

Seriously man, I don't give a crap about Flynn. I care about ordinary people who don't get the political passes that people like Flynn and Clinton get. When we lie to the FBI or mishandle classified information our lives get ruined. This isn't a Red versus Blue issue, but an Elite vs. Ordinary issue the elites have convinced everyone to play on their side.

My preferred outcome for the Flynn mess, ranked:

1. Barr changes DoJ/FBI policy, and retroactively applies the changes to Flynn and other defendants/convicts.
2. Flynn gets nailed by a cruel system.
3. Flynn walks, and the cruel system is unchanged.

2 is superior to 3 because after enough of the Elite get maimed by the teeth of the law, the law will get changed. Imperfect justice evenly applied is superior to perfect justice selectively applied.


Quote:
It's possible they did not use the draft document and only used their memory. The FBI Director, acting AG and an official from the National Security Division using memory only while talking to the White House Counsel about a counterintelligence investigation into the sitting National Security Advisor is counter intuitive, but so is the idea of an FBI Director setting up an ambush interview of the same NSA and that happened. It appears Comey doesn't mind going a little unorthodox when it comes to Trump's friends.
There is another possibility that they took their own notes of the debriefing and used them in their talk with the WHC.
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Old Yesterday, 05:40 PM   #491
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Trump and Barr are doing their best to turn the DOJ into Trump's storm-troopers.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
Assuming you do, why isn't Barr taking steps to reform the system to stop another Flynn?

- Record Interviews
- Brady before Plea deals
- Define limited scope to materiality under 1001
- Keep all intermediate work products
How do you know he isn't?

The DOJ and FBI are vast bureaucracies. There are a lot of people there with very vested interests in doing things the same way they've been doing them. There are changes which Barr might literally have the power to make, but which on a practical level would be very difficult to implement because of resistance within those organizations. I'd like to see these changes made, but realistically there's a limit to how much reform any head of a department can do, especially when under constant fire from outside critics.
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Old Yesterday, 06:29 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump and Barr are doing their best to turn the DOJ into Trump's storm-troopers.
Storm Troopers? They're almost comically inept As for the ultimate desire of this 'Himmler' and his 'Leader', I'd go as far as to suggest Gestapo.
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do you know he isn't?

The DOJ and FBI are vast bureaucracies. There are a lot of people there with very vested interests in doing things the same way they've been doing them. There are changes which Barr might literally have the power to make, but which on a practical level would be very difficult to implement because of resistance within those organizations. I'd like to see these changes made, but realistically there's a limit to how much reform any head of a department can do, especially when under constant fire from outside critics.
So you think there's a chance that Barr wants to reform the DoJ, but didn't release any indication of those reforms in conjunction with the Flynn dismissal because they wouldn't be perfectly implemented immediately?

Would you be interested in buying a bridge in New york?
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Old Yesterday, 08:25 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Beeyon View Post
So you think there's a chance that Barr wants to reform the DoJ, but didn't release any indication of those reforms in conjunction with the Flynn dismissal because they wouldn't be perfectly implemented immediately?
I'm saying the people in charge often can't do what they want to do. We don't know what he wants to do, let alone what he's actually doing, and they need not be the same. Changing FBI policy on something like this would take a fair amount of political capital within the DOJ, and it may not be at the top of his priority list.
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Old Yesterday, 08:31 PM   #496
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Also in the news this weekend: Judge Sullivan has hired himself a lawyer to help with the appeals court order for him to explain himself. His response still must be from him, though, even if he has help drafting it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:44 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm saying the people in charge often can't do what they want to do. We don't know what he wants to do, let alone what he's actually doing, and they need not be the same. Changing FBI policy on something like this would take a fair amount of political capital within the DOJ, and it may not be at the top of his priority list.
The amount of investigations Barr has ordered into the FBI suggests otherwise.
We have an ongoing report about the problems with FISA.

And yet Barr has pushed the GOP hard not to reform the process at this time, even though Trump waited to sign the extension of the bill for a while.

All signs point to Barr being very happy with how the FBI deals with investigations - unless they affect someone on his team.
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Old Yesterday, 09:07 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Also in the news this weekend: Judge Sullivan has hired himself a lawyer to help with the appeals court order for him to explain himself. His response still must be from him, though, even if he has help drafting it.
I see others suggesting that this a strange and thus dubious action of Sullivan's (not to imply Ziggurat is engaged in such doubt mongering), but that appears to be false.

Originally Posted by SCotUS in Kerr v. US District Courts
Our treatment of mandamus within the federal court system as an extraordinary remedy is not without good reason. As we have recognized before, mandamus actions such as the one involved in the instant case "have the unfortunate consequence of making the [district court] judge a litigant, obliged to obtain personal counsel
.
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Old Yesterday, 09:18 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm saying the people in charge often can't do what they want to do. We don't know what he wants to do, let alone what he's actually doing, and they need not be the same. Changing FBI policy on something like this would take a fair amount of political capital within the DOJ, and it may not be at the top of his priority list.
None of this would prevent Barr from making known his intentions or desires to see these reforms implemented.

But he hasnít made them known because they donít exist.

Just like the conservatives who lament the alleged injustice of what has happened to Flynn, Barr doesnít give a ratís ass about reform. He just wants to protect a Trump crony from the system heís perfectly content to sic on ordinary Americans.
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