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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old Yesterday, 10:17 PM   #1081
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i think mitch knows that in 4 years trump has cost the GOP both houses of congress and the presidency. i'd be surprised if he felt there was something to gain by protecting him and keeping his leadership of the party intact.
I've been saying for a couple months that it looks like McConnell is setting things up to reconstruct the Republican party without anything Trump. I think he hates Trump, even if he has found him sometimes a useful tool. But the is glad to be rid of him. That was most apparent when McConnell congratulated Biden and Harris on their victory and then gave one of his rare little creepy smiles.

McConnell wants to kick the crazy to the curb, or at least back to the fringe, and restore his Grand Old Party. That starts with Trump. He want to convict and prevent Trump from running again. With that, he would be out of the party, for good.

Trying to kick him out of office would have been difficult. McConnell would have had to take specific actions. He probably didn't have enough Republican Senators on board for that, even though some of them would be on board with conviction after he is out of office. It could have resulted in a big backlash. McConnell wants to reform the party, not destroy it.

Since he is publicly accusing Trump of being responsible for the riot but not actually calling for conviction on the impeachment charges, it means either he doesn't have the votes locked for conviction yet or he wants to remain noncommittal until he gets the articles from the House. That may take some time. Pelosi may want to make sure Biden can get in a new Cabinet and other positions and manage covid issues, because that is most important. And wait for more evidence to roll in to make a stronger case.
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i think mitch knows that in 4 years trump has cost the GOP both houses of congress and the presidency. i'd be surprised if he felt there was something to gain by protecting him and keeping his leadership of the party intact.
It's all about the base, not about Trump. In two years when the Democrats have a chance to increase their strength in the House and the Senate, McConnell will need that base to push the Democrats back.

Right at the moment McConnell is negotiating with Schumer and hoping to lull Schumer into a false sense of security that McConnell is done screwing the Democrats. But McConnell started screwing the Democrats in earnest when he vowed to make Obama a one term POTUS.

I hope Schumer knows better that to trust McConnell has changed in any significant way.
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Old Yesterday, 10:23 PM   #1083
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The PDJT himself is talking about forming a new party, the Patriot Party.
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Old Yesterday, 10:28 PM   #1084
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The P-Party ?
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Old Yesterday, 10:36 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The P-Party ?
Oh, please, please, please please, let Trump not realise that until to late.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The PDJT himself is talking about forming a new party, the Patriot Party.
I would expect that to split the Republican party pretty nastily, with the GOP losing the loyal T**** base, enough to guarantee further losses without enough in the Patriot party to win much of anything. If nothing else, though, I'd expect that as soon as T**** takes his base away from the Republican Party, there would be that much less reason for McConnell and his cronies to pander to them, so I'm guessing it's more of a blackmail threat: if you vote to convict I'll pick up my dollies and go home.
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Old Yesterday, 11:02 PM   #1087
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's all about the base, not about Trump. In two years when the Democrats have a chance to increase their strength in the House and the Senate, McConnell will need that base to push the Democrats back.

Right at the moment McConnell is negotiating with Schumer and hoping to lull Schumer into a false sense of security that McConnell is done screwing the Democrats. But McConnell started screwing the Democrats in earnest when he vowed to make Obama a one term POTUS.

I hope Schumer knows better that to trust McConnell has changed in any significant way.
in 4 years they lost both houses and the presidency so i'm not even sure trump's base is making up for moderates and independants jumping ship. he hasn't won them anything. even best case, i'm sure mcconnell doesn't want a handful full of qanon senators in 2022 and beyond

mcconnell doesn't have to change, this is what's good for mcconnell
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Old Yesterday, 11:22 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Quote:
It's all about the base, not about Trump. In two years when the Democrats have a chance to increase their strength in the House and the Senate, McConnell will need that base to push the Democrats back.
in 4 years they lost both houses and the presidency so i'm not even sure trump's base is making up for moderates and independants jumping ship. he hasn't won them anything.
True, Trump's appeal to is base core support didn't overcome the loss of moderates. But that doesn't necessarily mean they can risk alienating the MAGAchuds either (given how slim the margins are).

The republicans best hope (if they want power) is to not impeach (thus not alienating the MAGAchud, and hope that Trump doesn't run in 2024 (either because he is in jail for some fraud he's committed, or because he died of a cheeseburger overdose) so that they can select a candidate who is, well, not Trump (and thus won't drive away the moderate voters), but is right-wing enough to keep the MAGAchud willing to vote republican.

Quote:
even best case, i'm sure mcconnell doesn't want a handful full of qanon senators in 2022 and beyond

mcconnell doesn't have to change, this is what's good for mcconnell
I don't think Moscow Mitch cares how many Q-Anon senators he has in the republican party, as long as there are more republican senators than democratic senators. (I mean, he'd probably prefer a well-healed Republican, but any republican is better than a democrat if it means more power for him.)
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Old Today, 12:01 AM   #1089
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Originally Posted by rdaneel View Post
Oh, please, please, please please, let Trump not realise that until to late.
It may be a deliberate tip of the hat to his Russian controllers?
Wee kno he has a peenchant for pee pee.
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Old Today, 06:28 AM   #1090
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The PDJT himself is talking about forming a new party, the Patriot Party.
(hilite mine)

As Inigo said,

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

(not directed towards alfaniner)
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Old Today, 06:42 AM   #1091
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
The PDJT himself is talking about forming a new party, the Patriot Party.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would expect that to split the Republican party pretty nastily, with the GOP losing the loyal T**** base, enough to guarantee further losses without enough in the Patriot party to win much of anything. If nothing else, though, I'd expect that as soon as T**** takes his base away from the Republican Party, there would be that much less reason for McConnell and his cronies to pander to them, so I'm guessing it's more of a blackmail threat: if you vote to convict I'll pick up my dollies and go home.
With any luck, that will be the outcome, the deplorables will join Trump in his PP tee-pee; to adapt the old LBJ adage, a small tent with a crowd whose whole purpose is to be people pissing out.
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Old Today, 06:53 AM   #1092
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
With any luck, that will be the outcome, the deplorables will join Trump in his PP tee-pee; to adapt the old LBJ adage, a small tent with a crowd whose whole purpose is to be people pissing out.
I know it sounds good for the rest of us to have the Republican party split like that, but I'm not sure it is. To me, the P-Party sounds like Tea Party Version 1.1. Instead of being an actual separate party, the P-Party may just be unionizing the crazier side of the Republican Party to give them a stronger voice in Republican politics.
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Old Today, 07:10 AM   #1093
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I know it sounds good for the rest of us to have the Republican party split like that, but I'm not sure it is. To me, the P-Party sounds like Tea Party Version 1.1. Instead of being an actual separate party, the P-Party may just be unionizing the crazier side of the Republican Party to give them a stronger voice in Republican politics.
That's a good point. I guess what I'm hoping is that the GOP will learn a lesson from the 2020 election, that appealing to that crazier base is no guarantee of a win, and that they will themselves move to marginalize them as unnecessary; it may be something like this that McConnell is thinking of when he says he's considering voting to convict Trump on the impeachment article, as a sort of strategic (if not principled) exorcism. I've never been a fan of the GOP, but they were, at one time, a responsible conservative party, and I think at least two responsible parties are a necessity for a working democracy.
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Old Today, 07:17 AM   #1094
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
[Ö]to adapt the old LBJ adage, a small tent with a crowd whose whole purpose is to be people pissing out.
...but who are all, inexplicably, facing in the wrong direction.

Dave
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Old Today, 07:21 AM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
...but who are all, inexplicably, facing in the wrong direction.

Dave
Ha! Yeah, but maybe not so inexplicable when you consider the mental caliber involved.
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Old Today, 07:27 AM   #1096
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People who prefer one party are always too quick to predict the other's fracturing (or demise by other means). But it would actually be bad for the Democrats if the Republicans did fall apart.

Both parties are divided, but one of the major factions in each case is the same: the corporate bribe-takers whose real job there, as assigned to them by their real employers, is to make sure that as much money as possible keeps flowing up from the peasants to their corporate masters. Take away this crowd's support & influence in the Republican Party and it'll still be around, just more in the other party instead. The influx to the "Democrats" will help that party "win" against Republicans, but it will shift the party's own internal division even more in favor of the faction that was already just like one of the Republican factions anyway.
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Old Today, 07:42 AM   #1097
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
I've never been a fan of the GOP, but they were, at one time, a responsible conservative party, and I think at least two responsible parties are a necessity for a working democracy.
I don't consider myself a Democrat, but I've been a functional Democrat (at the national level) for many years now because the Republicans have gone kinda crazy. I'd much prefer to be choosing between two decent, responsible parties. Currently, I find myself choosing between, "Eh, maybe," and "Oh, God, not that!"

I remember being very pleased about the 2008 Presidential election because I liked both McCain and Obama*. I think that's how our elections should always be, and I'd be thrilled to see the U.S. get back to that.


*Neither were perfect, and I can point out things that I consider serious lapses by both of them. But I don't think it's realistic to expect un-flawed candidates. Or people in general.
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Old Today, 07:44 AM   #1098
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I don't want one party. I just want mine to keep winning.
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Old Today, 08:38 AM   #1099
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
People who prefer one party are always too quick to predict the other's fracturing (or demise by other means). But it would actually be bad for the Democrats if the Republicans did fall apart.

Both parties are divided, but one of the major factions in each case is the same: the corporate bribe-takers whose real job there, as assigned to them by their real employers, is to make sure that as much money as possible keeps flowing up from the peasants to their corporate masters. Take away this crowd's support & influence in the Republican Party and it'll still be around, just more in the other party instead. The influx to the "Democrats" will help that party "win" against Republicans, but it will shift the party's own internal division even more in favor of the faction that was already just like one of the Republican factions anyway.
The GOP had no issue subsuming the Tea Party.
Everyone of the Trumpistas will either rejoin the Party or become disillusioned with politics altogether.
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Old Today, 08:40 AM   #1100
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The GOP had no issue subsuming the Tea Party.
Really? Aren't they more or less the same people as Trump's hardcore supporters?

Dave
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Old Today, 08:44 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Really? Aren't they more or less the same people as Trump's hardcore supporters?

Dave
you are illustrating my point nicely.
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Old Today, 08:51 AM   #1102
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I too wonder about the sincerity of this Trump third party. The reality of American politics is that splitting means both fragments become irrelevant. Voting rules vary by locality in this country, but a split in the conservative wing would often mean victory for Democrats with less than a majority, while losses for both conservative parties that together may have been the majority of voters.

I could easily see Trump launching a more combative pseudo-party within the Republican party, very much like the Tea Party. They might challenge traditional conservatives in primaries and try to throw their weight around as a block-vote, should they achieve enough victories for this to be effective.
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Old Today, 08:51 AM   #1103
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Can you enlighten me and tell me what I thought?
Now that I've caught up a bit on the thread: no. I can not see the you have actually expressed anything of interest, whereas it seemed from those initial posts you actually were heading for an obvious point. My apologies for making the assumption that you had something to say. Won't happen again.
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Old Today, 08:56 AM   #1104
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I too wonder about the sincerity of this Trump third party. The reality of American politics is that splitting means both fragments become irrelevant. Voting rules vary by locality in this country, but a split in the conservative wing would often mean victory for Democrats with less than a majority, while losses for both conservative parties that together may have been the majority of voters.
Not to pick on you directly, but the exact same thing the Progressives hope to accomplish in regards to your hated "Centrists."

No the Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party knows full well it can't stand against the GOP without the more moderate old guard folks. "Well we'll just form our own party!" is a threat hoping to get more power and influence within the party.

Nobody who threatens to take their ball and go home really wants the game to end or the teams they change. They just want to be coach instead of the 3rd baseman.
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Old Today, 09:04 AM   #1105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not to pick on you directly, but the exact same thing the Progressives hope to accomplish in regards to your hated "Centrists."

No the Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party knows full well it can't stand against the GOP without the more moderate old guard folks. "Well we'll just form our own party!" is a threat hoping to get more power and influence within the party.

Nobody who threatens to take their ball and go home really wants the game to end or the teams they change. They just want to be coach instead of the 3rd baseman.
Sure, I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. You can say a lot of negative things about the Tea Party (mostly that they were just a thinly veiled racist backlash to Obama), but you can't say the tactics didn't work.

Compare that to the Libertarian party, a third party with a long history of mostly no electoral accomplishment.

The progressives aren't a third party because they want to actually have a chance to accomplish something. The Tea Party revolution showed that working from within the party, through primary challenges and forming a sub-party within the party, is the practical route.

Trump is talking about forming a true third party, by some reports. It's a hopeless endeavor, unless enough conservatives leave that they become the new home of the majority of conservatives.

There's already a core of politicians that could form the MAGA sub party within the Republican party. The Q congresspeople, the recent MAGA types, etc. Seems Trump's political ambitions would probably be better served just forming a camp within the camp rather than a true third party.
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Old Today, 09:25 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you are illustrating my point nicely.
No, I don't think I am. I think the Tea Party was never actually subsumed, but remained a separate enclave in the Republican Party, which Trump stepped in to take control of; and now he's considering splitting off with them to form a new party. The fact that this hasn't happened yet is a rather poor argument for it being unlikely to happen in the future.

Dave
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Old Today, 09:38 AM   #1107
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No, I don't think I am. I think the Tea Party was never actually subsumed, but remained a separate enclave in the Republican Party, which Trump stepped in to take control of; and now he's considering splitting off with them to form a new party. The fact that this hasn't happened yet is a rather poor argument for it being unlikely to happen in the future.

Dave
oh really?
then why did we not hear a beep from the 'fiscal conservatives' during the Trump years?
No, the Tea Party might have caused the GOP to move to the irresponsible Right, but it is no longer an identifiable caucus.
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Old Today, 09:39 AM   #1108
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I don't consider myself a Democrat, but I've been a functional Democrat (at the national level) for many years now because the Republicans have gone kinda crazy. I'd much prefer to be choosing between two decent, responsible parties. Currently, I find myself choosing between, "Eh, maybe," and "Oh, God, not that!"

I remember being very pleased about the 2008 Presidential election because I liked both McCain and Obama*. I think that's how our elections should always be, and I'd be thrilled to see the U.S. get back to that.


*Neither were perfect, and I can point out things that I consider serious lapses by both of them. But I don't think it's realistic to expect un-flawed candidates. Or people in general.
Agreed, and nothing about 2012 even really sticks out in my mind for the sort of rancor we've seen since. We went in just those few short years from McCain's (referring to Obama)
Quote:
He is a decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as President, If I didnít think Iíd be one heck of a better President I wouldnít be running, and thatís the point. I admire Sen. Obama and his accomplishments, I will respect him. I want everyone to be respectful, and letís make sure we are. Because thatís the way politics should be conducted in America.
to Trump's "you'll be in jail" and leading chants of "lock her up!" against Clinton.
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Old Today, 10:04 AM   #1109
No Other
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Now that I've caught up a bit on the thread: no. I can not see the you have actually expressed anything of interest, whereas it seemed from those initial posts you actually were heading for an obvious point. My apologies for making the assumption that you had something to say. Won't happen again.
Snide comment noticed and understood. What you and some others fail to grasp is that this site is a Skeptics site and not just an opinion forum.
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Old Today, 10:09 AM   #1110
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
People who prefer one party are always too quick to predict the other's fracturing (or demise by other means). But it would actually be bad for the Democrats if the Republicans did fall apart.

Both parties are divided, but one of the major factions in each case is the same: the corporate bribe-takers whose real job there, as assigned to them by their real employers, is to make sure that as much money as possible keeps flowing up from the peasants to their corporate masters. Take away this crowd's support & influence in the Republican Party and it'll still be around, just more in the other party instead. The influx to the "Democrats" will help that party "win" against Republicans, but it will shift the party's own internal division even more in favor of the faction that was already just like one of the Republican factions anyway.
Can you explain how if both parties are already the same (your assertion) , one of the two identical parties fracturing would be bad for the remaining party? Seems to me that a fracture would actually create a party that is actually different from the 2 parties you claim are the same now, thus creating actual competition.

Of course, not many of us think the 2 parties are the same. In fact, you previously claimed that the US would be better re-electing Trump, which certainly implies that you also don't think both parties are just like each other. Hmmm, a quandary.
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Old Today, 10:23 AM   #1111
The Great Zaganza
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It's far more likely that the Democrats will split ... and that might not be a bad thing for them.
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Old Today, 10:28 AM   #1112
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
oh really?
then why did we not hear a beep from the 'fiscal conservatives' during the Trump years?
No, the Tea Party might have caused the GOP to move to the irresponsible Right, but it is no longer an identifiable caucus.
Because it was never about fiscal conservatism.

We heard a lot about increasingly open white nationalism from the tea party turned MAGA block, and that's really what they were always about. Fiscal restraint was just useful PR for their obstinance to the Obama administration.
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Old Today, 10:32 AM   #1113
Aridas
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
oh really?
then why did we not hear a beep from the 'fiscal conservatives' during the Trump years?
No, the Tea Party might have caused the GOP to move to the irresponsible Right, but it is no longer an identifiable caucus.
To poke at this... We did? The Tea Party was one of the notable factors that prevented the Republicans from actually getting anything of note done while the Republicans had the House in the first 2 years, then faced irrelevance when Democrats had the majority in the House, so they simply don't get much attention now... because of their current irrelevance and because Trump's been hogging the news space. They haven't gone away, at last check.

As SuburbanTurkey notes, though, it was only ever really about fiscal conservatism superficially. That was a rallying cry, but it very quickly became evident that that's not what they were actually about.
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Old Today, 10:50 AM   #1114
Mader Levap
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I too wonder about the sincerity of this Trump third party. The reality of American politics is that splitting means both fragments become irrelevant.
I could see Trump doing that - as retaliation on republicans for inssuficiently supporting his coup efforts. In this case, that third party never was intended to win anything, just drag republicans down with them.

Unfortunately, it is kinda unlikely.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's far more likely that the Democrats will split ... and that might not be a bad thing for them.
They will split only if republicans cease to exist somehow. It would be nice to have actually lefty party in USA, though. It is also kinda unlikely.
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Old Today, 12:08 PM   #1115
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Snide comment noticed and understood.
I doubt it.

Quote:
What you and some others fail to grasp is that this site is a Skeptics site and not just an opinion forum.
And now you are telling me what I understand? Please do elaborate.
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