IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 17th January 2021, 05:05 PM   #1321
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,008
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Watching that tape, one word kept going through my head, over and over.


Stupid.

These guys are just dumb. They're morons. Their reading comprehension skills are, well, below grade level. They can repeat words, but can't really form coherent thoughts. They're idiots.
So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 05:08 PM   #1322
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,295
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
60 Minutes...
Well, that's a disappointment. There was one quote by a guy saying it was predictable, but no investigation into why.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 05:54 PM   #1323
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks.

I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 06:18 PM   #1324
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
I agree. Intelligence is not a absolute preventive to believing in really stupid crap. In fact I would argue that being intelligent helps many people rationalize all too well, at least to themselves, believing stupid crap.

So I generally agree with avoiding calling people stupid, however calling the stupid ideas they believe in stupid doesn't bother me.
Pacal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 06:28 PM   #1325
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
I've been trying (with no real absolute answer) to square that peg for myself for years now.

The (understandable) obsession with defining some point on the curve where we stop trying to reach out to these Trumpers and start driving those Trumpers off a cliff into the sea is cathartic, but honestly does anyone ever really us seeing to anything resembling an answer to that?

The best I can do is just go "These ideas; defense of fascism, pure post-intellectual thinking, no sin being as unforgivable as being 'dramatic', and the amount of absolute damage to our country just to 'troll the libs," All of those are no longer acceptable. My willingness to work with you as a person is entirely on your ability to separate those things from yourself. If you can' t be 'you' without those things, then no my future has no place for you."

Is that a great answer? No, not really. Sort of the best one I have right now though.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 17th January 2021 at 06:29 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 06:32 PM   #1326
HHellpop
Reluctant Galactic Assassin
 
HHellpop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ylum
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
I appreciate what you're saying, and agree with you for the most part. I have had similar feelings about some members here who lump everyone into one big, bucket of evil, regardless of which side of the spectrum they fall on.

But I'm pretty sure I can draw a distinction between someone who supports and voted for Trump and a group of people who were fooled or fooled themselves into thinking that violently storming the Capitol building meant they were expressing their patriotism and freedom. The company I work for is owned by the former. The majority of its employees are in the same group. Many of them have served in the military, and some still do as reservists or guardsmen. I'm not aware of a single one who traveled to DC to take part in the rally. Even if they did, I'm having a very hard time picturing any of them going so far as to invade the Capitol building, and especially vandalizing it. If anything, they would be amongst those who have turned and walked away when they saw that happening, and probably a few would have tried to dissuade others from doing so. I'm certain that there are some who took part in the insurrection who recognize how wrong their actions were and regret them. But clearly, many of them are still proudly ignorant, or worse, intent on continuing in the same vein. And I don't believe any amount of reasoned arguments on our part will open their minds one iota.
__________________
"Vootie!" - Mezzrow

Last edited by HHellpop; 17th January 2021 at 06:41 PM.
HHellpop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 06:59 PM   #1327
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 20,129
Basically, intelligent people can be racist.

I keep hearing people say, "I can't understand how smart people can support him?"

And the simple answer is, racism. You don't need to look any farther than t6at.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 07:05 PM   #1328
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 07:13 PM   #1329
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,255
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters.
There are a lot of very intelligent Trump supporters.

Those people on the film from the New Yorker reporter, that had the guys in the Senate chambers? Those people were morons.

I don't mean they were saying things I didn't agree with. I don't mean that they were saying things that I think were unsupported, or even stupid. No, I mean they, themselves, at least the ones that were talking, were dumb as posts.


ETA: I assure you that I have expressed exactly the same sentiments that you have, and in fact more strongly. Not only do I not think all of Trump's supporters are stupid, I also don't think all of Trump's positions are stupid. I can understand why people would pull the Trump lever* even if they are extremely intelligent people.

Those guys in the Senate chamber were just plain idiots. They were barely able to converse.


*I suppose that's just a metaphor these days. I don't think any voting machines currently in use have levers.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?

Last edited by Meadmaker; 17th January 2021 at 07:19 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 07:23 PM   #1330
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 28,256
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There are a lot of very intelligent Trump supporters.

Those people on the film from the New Yorker reporter, that had the guys in the Senate chambers? Those people were morons.

I don't mean they were saying things I didn't agree with. I don't mean that they were saying things that I think were unsupported, or even stupid. No, I mean they, themselves, at least the ones that were talking, were dumb as posts.


ETA: I assure you that I have expressed exactly the same sentiments that you have, and in fact more strongly. Not only do I not think all of Trump's supporters are stupid, I also don't think all of Trump's positions are stupid. I can understand why people would pull the Trump lever* even if they are extremely intelligent people.

Those guys in the Senate chamber were just plain idiots.

*I suppose that's just a metaphor these days. I don't think any voting machines currently in use have levers.
Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 07:46 PM   #1331
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,448
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
But Hawley and Cruz weren't roaming around in the Senate chamber spouting out a bunch of nonsen...oh wait!
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 07:52 PM   #1332
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,255
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Again, I don't necessarily disagree. But just because they are pushing a stupid argument doesn't make them stupid. It just as often makes them craven and deceitful. The GOP and their leaders more often than not are gish galloping their way. Hawley and Cruz are Ivy league graduates. They know damn well they are peddling bull crap.
Ted Cruz is no dummy.

The people who were trying to read Ted Cruz' notes that they took from his desk, were dummies.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 08:31 PM   #1333
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ted Cruz is no dummy.

The people who were trying to read Ted Cruz' notes that they took from his desk, were dummies.
THey will soon be dummies in Jail.......
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 08:34 PM   #1334
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 50,334
It's the sheer anaracy that scares me in the New Yorker video.
And those shots of Qanon Shaman in Pence's chair will not help him since he has been portraying himself as just somebody who got caught up in the mob.not as a leader. Sure looked like some sort of a leader in that video.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 08:40 PM   #1335
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,295
I doubt that anybody else there really "followed" the guy who looks like he thought it was all an audition for the Village People and there should have been one based on Enkidu. They'd just consider him a freak and stand back & watch the show.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 08:43 PM   #1336
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,448
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's the sheer anaracy that scares me in the New Yorker video.
And those shots of Qanon Shaman in Pence's chair will not help him since he has been portraying himself as just somebody who got caught up in the mob.not as a leader. Sure looked like some sort of a leader in that video.
The founder of Cowboys for Trump and Otero County Commissioner was arrested today. Court document show he claims he was just caught up in the crowd.

Except...a couple days ago at a county board meeting he said he was going to go to Washington on January 20 with a bunch of firearms.

He just keeps getting caught up a in an insurrectionist violent moment...after moment...after moment. Almost like like it is a constant.
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 08:59 PM   #1337
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,448
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I doubt that anybody else there really "followed" the guy who looks like he thought it was all an audition for the Village People and there should have been one based on Enkidu. They'd just consider him a freak and stand back & watch the show.
In the video released today it appears he was out front not because he was leading but because he wanted to be on TV.

It shows him in the Senate gallery standing around casually while the cameraman gets into position. Then he does his pose and a minute or so of whooping while the camera is running. Then it appears he is talking with the camera man about getting down to the dais for his next glamorous photo shoot.

He did lead some kinds of prayer on the microphone. I couldn't understand anything. I assume it was something like, "Thank you Baby Jesus for this fabulously violent and highly illegal insurrection before this divine camera held by a reporter who will soon turnover the video to the FBI and get me arrested but also get me some sweet sweet screen time. Praise be Baby Lord Trump. Oggabooga." Something like that.
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2021, 09:18 PM   #1338
fromdownunder
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,715
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
In the video released today it appears he was out front not because he was leading but because he wanted to be on TV.

Would that be one of those be careful what you wish for moments?


Norm
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain


fromdownunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 12:58 AM   #1339
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 18,008
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
I get you, but the hard truth is that many of them are just dumb as a box of rocks. I understand that there are many intelligent Republicans but those were not the one we see in that video screaming that they might as well set up a government since they're in the Senate chambers, taking pictures of papers in the senators' desks, coming prepared with flex cuffs and tasers, QAnon idiots, and that buffalo horned moron chanting up in the balcony. Those are just plain stupid people. They aren't just people who "got caught up in the moment". Look at the way they are dressed. They came prepared to do a very stupid thing and they did it because they are stupid. Don't make excuses for them.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 01:09 AM   #1340
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,124
the world isn’t a meritocracy. you don’t need to be smart to be successful

in fact, the idea that because someone is successful they must be smart is how we got saddled with Trump.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 03:56 AM   #1341
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,377
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.
Indeed. Also, as skepticsTM, it is worth understanding that people are not necessarily led down the wrong path because they simply lack knowledge. As Steven Novella et al. point out often, Carl Sagan's view of this simply being a knowledge deficit doesn't hold water.

That said, a lot of Trumpers really are stupid.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 04:02 AM   #1342
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,366
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.
Given that you have that experience, what do you think would be a good approach to, for example, getting Trump supporters to accept that the evidence for widespread electoral fraud is somewhere between inadequate and nonexistent?

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 04:08 AM   #1343
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,486
Informative website here detailing events and charges from a Twitter account I follow, a data scientist @EmilyGorcenski

https://first-vigil.com/pages/details/insurrection/
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 04:11 AM   #1344
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,486
A twitter thread from her about someone stealing a laptop or hard drive from Pelosi’s office apparently with intent to sell to Russia. I hear the weather at Guantanamo is lovely this time of year.

https://twitter.com/emilygorcenski/s...938766852?s=21
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 04:15 AM   #1345
HHellpop
Reluctant Galactic Assassin
 
HHellpop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ylum
Posts: 361
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Informative website here detailing events and charges from a Twitter account I follow, a data scientist @EmilyGorcenski

https://first-vigil.com/pages/details/insurrection/
Has someone pointed out this error to her?

Quote:
USA v Black, Joshua Matthew (US District Court (DC) — 1:21-cr-3-RCL)
Awaiting Trial

Jacob Chansley, the QShaman, allegedly partook in the failed coup on January 6, 2021 at the US Capitol building. Photographed in a viking helmet and carrying a spear, Chansley's bare torso revealed several tattoos commonly associated with esoteric neo-Naziism. He was photographed at the dais in the Senate chamber.
__________________
"Vootie!" - Mezzrow
HHellpop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 04:20 AM   #1346
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,486
Good catch.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 05:53 AM   #1347
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,990
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
the world isn’t a meritocracy. you don’t need to be smart to be successful

in fact, the idea that because someone is successful they must be smart is how we got saddled with Trump.
If you want to understand how and why Trump was elected you cannot disregard over a decade of PR and marketing that the production company and networks put into The Apprentice and Trump. They created the character that was elected - the hugely successful businessman, who speaks his mind, has a no nonsense approach, takes no prisoners, billionaire mogul, without that he would have had no chance to be elected.

Of course he is stupid and if you ever truly wonder how literally stupid Trump is I think no story illustrates it better than this one: https://theweek.com/speedreads/78589...med-apprentice
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 05:55 AM   #1348
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,990
Originally Posted by HHellpop View Post
Has someone pointed out this error to her?
I’ve seen he has been “known” by quite a few names over the years. Crybaby would seem to be a good one.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 06:00 AM   #1349
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 96,990
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
The founder of Cowboys for Trump and Otero County Commissioner was arrested today. Court document show he claims he was just caught up in the crowd.

Except...a couple days ago at a county board meeting he said he was going to go to Washington on January 20 with a bunch of firearms.

He just keeps getting caught up a in an insurrectionist violent moment...after moment...after moment. Almost like like it is a constant.
Oh come off it - who hasn’t found themselves in the middle of an insurrection when you were simply walking around DC? Or who hasn’t planned a trip with firearms and only found out when you get there that by total coincidence there was a presidential inauguration happening?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 06:36 AM   #1350
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,024
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ted Cruz is no dummy.

The people who were trying to read Ted Cruz' notes that they took from his desk, were dummies.

I'd love to have been there when Cruz saw that video, and realized how quick these guys were to throw Cruz under the bus because they misread Cruz' notes. Hey, Cruz? These are the guys who you're destroying democracy for. Doesn't matter how much you do for them, how far you stick your neck out, the moment they perceive you're no longer "one of them", even if they're mistaken, they'll turn on you like a hungry leopard.

So, maybe start moving away from them?


Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
He did lead some kinds of prayer on the microphone. I couldn't understand anything. I assume it was something like, "Thank you Baby Jesus for this fabulously violent and highly illegal insurrection before this divine camera held by a reporter who will soon turnover the video to the FBI and get me arrested but also get me some sweet sweet screen time. Praise be Baby Lord Trump. Oggabooga." Something like that.

Yeah, the scene of this guy with Norse tattoos and a Native American inspired "shaman" outfit leading a prayer to Republican Jesus was surreal. This guy's theology isn't well-thought out, I think.

Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 06:49 AM   #1351
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,741
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They came prepared to do a very stupid thing and they did it because they are stupid. Don't make excuses for them.
Arguing against, it appears many of them came from professions a truly stupid person would have trouble getting into. Scrolling through the link below for examples:

“CEO of Chicago-based marketing-data company Cogensia”

“real-estate agent”

“Texas-based attorney”

“a former Pennsylvania state representative <at a school> where he served as an adjunct professor.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/53...-identify-them

I don’t know if this article is cherry-picking, but it should disabuse anyone that only stupid participated in the riot. Not saying you have to be a MENSA-level genius to pass the bar, get your real estate license, become a CEO, teach at a college or whatever, but I think a really stupid person might struggle with these.

I’ll stipulate that those involved appeared to make some very “stupid” choices, but overall I doubt that “stupidity” or general “lack of intelligence” explains the crimes committed on 1/6.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 18th January 2021 at 06:56 AM.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 06:53 AM   #1352
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 30,664
Oh Jesus what is anyone hoping to accomplish here by defining some exact level of "stupid?"

Hell if anything calling them stupid is making excuses for them. If they planned out intelligently that's actually much, much worse.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 06:55 AM   #1353
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,971
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Arguing against, it appears many of them came from professions a truly stupid person would have trouble getting into. Scrolling through the link below for examples:

“CEO of Chicago-based marketing-data company Cogensia”

“real-estate agent”

“Texas-based attorney”

“a former Pennsylvania state representative <at a school> where he served as an adjunct professor.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/53...-identify-them

I don’t know if this article is cherry-picking, but it should disabuse anyone that only stupid participated in the riot. Not saying you have to be a MENSA-level genius to pass the bar, get your real estate license, become a CEO or whatever, but I think a really stupid person might struggle with these.

I’ll stipulate that those involved appeared to make some very “stupid” choices, but overall I doubt that “stupidity” or general “lacks of intelligence” explains the crimes committed on 1/6.
Petty bourgeoisie and reactionary politics, name a more iconic duo.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 07:20 AM   #1354
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 24,880
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
I'd love to have been there when Cruz saw that video, and realized how quick these guys were to throw Cruz under the bus because they misread Cruz' notes. Hey, Cruz? These are the guys who you're destroying democracy for. Doesn't matter how much you do for them, how far you stick your neck out, the moment they perceive you're no longer "one of them", even if they're mistaken, they'll turn on you like a hungry leopard.

So, maybe start moving away from them?





Yeah, the scene of this guy with Norse tattoos and a Native American inspired "shaman" outfit leading a prayer to Republican Jesus was surreal. This guy's theology isn't well-thought out, I think.

Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.
The insanity is exemplified during the scene where the guys on the floor are rifling through Cruz's papers, and in the background you can hear Horned Shaman singing something up in the gallery.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 08:08 AM   #1355
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 25,255
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Even scarier were all the other guys grooving on his prayer, not even noticing how insane it all looked.
And how it sounded. I get that prayers are not exactly doctoral dissertations, and you want to keep it simple, but that prayer was incoherent.

But the AMEN! at the end was awfully enthusiastic, and that's what matters I guess.



I really wonder how history will remember January 6 and the storming of the Capitol. Will my grandchildren see pictures of Shaman-guy sitting in the Vice President's chair, while the captions in their history book explains that the Trump era was marked by a general decline in critical thinking skills and an explosion of conspriracy oriented thinking, fueled by misinformation on the newly emerging platforms of social media?

This thread began with speculation about a Trump-friendly Supreme Court throwing out the law and declaring Trump to be President, or about military leaders backing Trump, or state legislatures ignoring their states' voters. None of those things happened, but instead we ended up with a guy wearing no shirt, a headdress that was some combination of Norse and Native American, with Norse tattoos, babbling in the chair of the President of the Senate, and a small but enthusiastic crowd shouting Amen!

I must admit I didn't see that coming.
__________________
Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information?
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 08:10 AM   #1356
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,800
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've been trying (with no real absolute answer) to square that peg for myself for years now.

The (understandable) obsession with defining some point on the curve where we stop trying to reach out to these Trumpers and start driving those Trumpers off a cliff into the sea is cathartic, but honestly does anyone ever really us seeing to anything resembling an answer to that?

The best I can do is just go "These ideas; defense of fascism, pure post-intellectual thinking, no sin being as unforgivable as being 'dramatic', and the amount of absolute damage to our country just to 'troll the libs," All of those are no longer acceptable. My willingness to work with you as a person is entirely on your ability to separate those things from yourself. If you can' t be 'you' without those things, then no my future has no place for you."

Is that a great answer? No, not really. Sort of the best one I have right now though.
It's a good start.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 08:32 AM   #1357
zorro99
Muse
 
zorro99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 974
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not saying some of these people might not be stupid. Some of them definitely are.

But whether they are or are not is irrelevant to changing their POVs. People dig in when you call them dumb or stupid. People dig in when you tell them they are wrong. Don't take my word on this. It's in the first (maybe second chapter of Dale Carnegie's book "How to win friends and influence people written 80 years ago."

People make up their minds almost instinctively and then look for reasons to support their instincts. They also tend to dismiss reasons that don't for the same reasons. And this is true for everyone regardless of intelligence.

As a salesman I had to learn how to lead people to a space where they thought they were smart in changing their position. I learned by starving and losing commissions that telling them they were wrong.
Isn’t the whole reason this international skeptics website exists is to promote rational, critical thinking? It has been awhile but Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer wrote books on the topic in the 90s. May be worth dusting those books off to see what they advised.
__________________
There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.
zorro99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 09:23 AM   #1358
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree. But that the left is incapable of evil is something too many people here seem to buy into.
And, never forget, one extreme always fuels the other extreme.
Heck no! I did not mean to suggest that anyone is incapable. Capable for sure.However, all the warning signs from the last three and a half to four decades and all that is actually happening is coming from the right.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 09:40 AM   #1359
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,464
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.
They are not just one thing. This "they are just a bunch of dumb hicks" narrative diminishes them and it is, for that reason, extremely dangerous. If they are just a bunch of dumb hicks we don't have to do anything about them.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2021, 09:41 AM   #1360
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,238
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really want people to stop saying this. Even if some of them are. There are some intelligent people that are Trump supporters. I think their epistemology is poor and lacks methodological rigour. But this isn't about intelligence. Just as having religious beliefs has nothing to with intelligence, neither does these people's support of Trump.

I want people to open their minds and calling them stupid has the opposite effect. I get it. It's endlessly frustrating to hear people say things that are patently false, even absurd. I am just as tempted as you are.

But we must be about changing hearts and minds, instead of rolling our eyes and mocking. This is 30 years of sales talking. It's a lesson I had to learn by not getting commissions when I was selling the best solution.
Conversely, people will be more willing to talk to you if they feel smart. My aunt was complaining about every death was chalked up to covid when it was only one factor. I would agree with her in an oblique way - yes, we know that people with health problems are more at risk. Then I mentioned excess deaths year over year, but gently, like I was simply pointing out something we both already knew. It worked out better than an earlier conversation when I started sputtering about how the CDC wasn't making this up. She eventually caught covid but is recovering. Ultimately "they would have died anyway" is not a very reassuring mindset. My aunt is 83 and has multiple co-morbitities and but doesn't want to die of something she doesn't have to.

I know you were speaking of politics, not public health but I think similar dynamics are in play. Withholding judgment, tell people something they didn't know, but not in a condescending way. If they feel smart(ish) they respond in a more positive way. When we feel dumb we slam up cognitive walls and fall back on our entrenched positions. I don't know exactly what prompts would be effective, but not something that causes hackles to rise and demolishes any hope of dialogue. You might say, "Does Pence really have that power, though?" Not as a challenge, just curious what they think.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.