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Old Today, 12:35 AM   #241
Darat
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That vaping is less damaging than smoking.
Your actual evidence of this claim is.....?
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Old Today, 12:36 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No I don't



Call me "Mr thicky", but I can't see how hard it is to grasp vaping is bad for you, but not as bad as smoking.



Therefore, letting people vap as an alternative to smoking means less people die and a lot wheen off nicotine levels till they end up quiting both.
And your evidence for this claim is....?
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Old Today, 12:38 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
All good



And you can go back to ranting vaping is bad as tobacco giants are evil....just cos



And millions of kids are going to be addicted to vaping you can't actually show stats for
And your evidence that SG said any of that is.....?
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Old Today, 12:39 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Your actual evidence of this claim is.....?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And your evidence for this claim is....?
....the lack of evidence that all forms of vaping are harmful.
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Old Today, 12:42 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
....the lack of evidence that all forms of vaping are harmful.
Good job no one has claimed that then isn't it?
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Old Today, 12:53 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Good job no one has claimed that then isn't it?
No, you have managed to stop just short of that so that you have plausible deniability if you are challenged.

Nevertheless, you claim that vaping should never have been allowed on the market (or allowed only under the strictest of medical supervision) because we haven't proven that it is safe in the long term.

Under that theory, not a single new drug would ever make it to market - even if there was reason to believe that they could save lives. They would have to be subjected to decades of testing to determine the long term effects.
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Old Today, 12:56 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And your evidence that SG said any of that is.....?
Yes .... Well minus my slight artistic interpretation



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Kind of silly to think this is going to turn out to be one chemical as opposed to multiple chemicals being the problem. They can't at this point find a particular vaping product these hospitalized kids have in common.

It's one thing to use vaping to quit smoking. It's another for the big tobacco companies to use vaping to addict another generation of kids to nicotine.


France 24 just had an in depth debate on vaping. Well worth watching if you can.

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/debate

Generation vape: how dangerous are e-cigarettes?
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Old Today, 01:09 AM   #248
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And this

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It may not be isolated, confined to the US. It may turn out to be a single thing that changed given I believe vaping has been around a decade. It may be that it takes 10 years to start to show up.

Some folks in the thread are jumping to whichever conclusion suits their need to believe it can't happen to them because ...reasons.

Give public health researchers time to do the epidemiology. We are talking about death and ICU on ventilator serious. No one knows what permanent damage has been done.

My issue, beside the above is why are we letting tobacco companies addict a new generation of teens when the safety is not tested?

Tobacco companies know through research if you don't start smoking by 21 you are very unlikely to smoke. The've done everything to keep marketing to teens despite it being illegal for them to do so.

When I was a teen, all my peers smoked. When my son was in high school, very few of his peers smoked. Society had kicked the habit. Now for a big profit, tobacco companies are re-addicting society.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old Today, 02:57 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, you have managed to stop just short of that so that you have plausible deniability if you are challenged.

Nevertheless, you claim that vaping should never have been allowed on the market (or allowed only under the strictest of medical supervision) because we haven't proven that it is safe in the long term.

Under that theory, not a single new drug would ever make it to market - even if there was reason to believe that they could save lives. They would have to be subjected to decades of testing to determine the long term effects.
I've spelled out my opinions in clear points, whilst you may think of your posts on terms of "plausible deniability" I try to just post what I want to say.

It is a fact (not an opinion) that at the moment we do not have the evidence that enables us to quantify the risks from vaping.

I strongly believe ( a personal opinion) that manufacturers should have a legal requirement to prove the safety of their products before we allow them to sell their products to us.

I believe (personal opinion) that since vaping is being used as a smoking cessation aid it should be regulated as that and only be provided to those trying to stop smoking. How that is actually regulated should be done on pragmatic grounds.

From my third paragraph you can see how this would prevent non smokers from starting to vape.

But all of the above has to be based on actual evidence, not our assumptions. We have seen time and time again that allowing a product on the market before we know its risks can cause huge long term costs for all of us, in terms of finance and health.
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Old Today, 02:59 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, you have managed to stop just short of that so that you have plausible deniability if you are challenged.

Nevertheless, you claim that vaping should never have been allowed on the market (or allowed only under the strictest of medical supervision) because we haven't proven that it is safe in the long term.

Under that theory, not a single new drug would ever make it to market - even if there was reason to believe that they could save lives. They would have to be subjected to decades of testing to determine the long term effects.
You may not have realised but drugs are tested before being allowed to be sold to us, they provide a primary example that prior knowledge of risk is the only safe method. And I'm not one who is an enemy of the good.
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Old Today, 03:19 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've spelled out my opinions in clear points, whilst you may think of your posts on terms of "plausible deniability" I try to just post what I want to say.

It is a fact (not an opinion) that at the moment we do not have the evidence that enables us to quantify the risks from vaping.

I strongly believe ( a personal opinion) that manufacturers should have a legal requirement to prove the safety of their products before we allow them to sell their products to us.

I believe (personal opinion) that since vaping is being used as a smoking cessation aid it should be regulated as that and only be provided to those trying to stop smoking. How that is actually regulated should be done on pragmatic grounds.

From my third paragraph you can see how this would prevent non smokers from starting to vape.

But all of the above has to be based on actual evidence, not our assumptions. We have seen time and time again that allowing a product on the market before we know its risks can cause huge long term costs for all of us, in terms of finance and health.
''

I actually tend to agree, and I have probably missed your post saying the answer, but what do you think should be done about vaping in the interim?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old Today, 03:40 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Yes .... Well minus my slight artistic interpretation
Artistic flair does not mean make it up.
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Old Today, 03:47 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Artistic flair does not mean make it up.
My quotes pretty much added up to my interpretation.

Unless you would like to explain otherwise.

"for a big profit, tobacco companies" = Big tobacco

And "another generation" = millions
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by cullennz; Today at 03:48 AM.
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Old Today, 04:45 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
''



I actually tend to agree, and I have probably missed your post saying the answer, but what do you think should be done about vaping in the interim?
To begin with for me it's a case "I wouldn't start from here....." so with that in mind strong regulation, so non smokers can't get hold of it and only allow the most basic ingredients possible and standardise the vaping fluid so we know what everyone is vaping I.e. only use whatever is needed to provide nicotine via vaping. Alongside that force any company that wants to sell vaping products to contribute (say a % of all profit from the vaping products) to a "crash" research effort to determine effectiveness as a smoking cessation aid, and to establish as quickly as possible actual levels of risk and harm.

Assuming we then find out risk and harm from vaping is quite low we can look at the devices again and make a final determination of what type of regulations are needed.
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Old Today, 04:54 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You may not have realised but drugs are tested before being allowed to be sold to us, they provide a primary example that prior knowledge of risk is the only safe method. And I'm not one who is an enemy of the good.
Pharmaceutical drugs may be subjected to rigorous testing before being approved for public use but the testing does NOT take decades.
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Old Today, 07:58 AM   #256
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Well, I threw my vape out, and what do you know - no more symptoms.

I'm so sick of my suggestible mind, lol.

But I feel good!

Last edited by isissxn; Today at 08:00 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old Today, 09:21 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Well, I threw my vape out, and what do you know - no more symptoms.

I'm so sick of my suggestible mind, lol.

But I feel good!
Yay!

It's especially a good thing to do now because flu season is approaching. People with lung damage are at greater risk from flu complications.


@Cullennz: Nothing I posted was false, all of it is supportable with evidence and you even cited my post with supporting links. The France24 was a debate by experts and knowledgeable investigative reporters. "Artistic" whatever does not cover your error filled posts.

@Psion: Turns out vaping smoke is more oils than water and pretty much that alone is hazardous to one's lungs.
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Old Today, 09:54 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Pharmaceutical drugs may be subjected to rigorous testing before being approved for public use but the testing does NOT take decades.
And?
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Old Today, 09:58 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And?
Have you forgotten about the consequences of what you are saying?
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Old Today, 10:06 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
@Psion: Turns out vaping smoke is more oils than water and pretty much that alone is hazardous to one's lungs.
Yep. THC mixed with Vitamin E acetate is the prime suspect. Further tests will be required to confirm this and to find if any other chemical inhalants are also harmful.

Although Vitamin E acetate should be avoided, it doesn't mean that everybody should be throwing away their vapes and risk going back to cigarettes.
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Old Today, 10:14 AM   #261
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I threw mine away primarily to quell my hypochondria. I'd been meaning to quit anyway, I just kept putting it off because I am weak and I'd been able to get pods VERY inexpensively.

I wouldn't preach at anybody else, though. My SO thinks I'm being ridiculous. He's still vaping away. His only complaint was that I dramatically threw out my remaining Vuse pods instead of giving them to him. Ooops.
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Old Today, 01:28 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Have you forgotten about the consequences of what you are saying?
Non sequitur.
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Old Today, 02:03 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
To begin with for me it's a case "I wouldn't start from here....."
But here is where we are. There's all kinds of things we could fix if we didn't have to start from actual reality.
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