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Old 13th May 2019, 11:43 AM   #161
TragicMonkey
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The whale was a conspirator to launder money for Russian kleptocrats through large scale exports of caviar. Fortunately for justice some meddling kids thought there was something eggstraordinarily fishy going on.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:06 PM   #162
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
More like plastic explosives:
Whale found dying off coast of Norway with 30 plastic bags in its stomach (The Telegraph - and it's not Hvaldimir!)

Nooooooooooooo!

https://youtu.be/8Vmnq5dBF7Y?t=120
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:12 PM   #163
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
By what metric, not expected? The articles I linked to established that the Navy was training cetaceans for things like inspecting port infrastructure and locating lost objects on the sea floor. In other words, the whales were intended to be used only in friendly seas by Navy personnel. Why would they have needed to keep the cameras they were wearing hidden? Or are you still fixated on the notion that these animals were intended to sneak into foreign ports and use the cameras to obtain secret footage? None of the articles I linked supported such a use.

You seem to miss that a spy whale, if such a creature even exists, wouldn't be trained to contact fishermen and perform tricks for them: pulling at their nets, spinning around. Why do you think they would keep the cameras hidden? For the same reason that they don't mark James Bond the way that Stephen Colbert joked about it.
How did you expect them to report back after "inspecting port infrastructure" other than with camera footage? Sign language?
Or maybe the spinning around is the key. Isn't that how bees are supposed to communicate?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:19 PM   #164
dann
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post

You don't even need dynamite! The gasses alone can do it!
Beached whale in Denmark.
Faroe Islands.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:24 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to miss that a spy whale, if such a creature even exists, wouldn't be trained to contact fishermen and perform tricks for them: pulling at their nets, spinning around. Why do you think they would keep the cameras hidden? For the same reason that they don't mark James Bond the way that Stephen Colbert joked about it.
How did you expect them to report back after "inspecting port infrastructure" other than with camera footage? Sign language?
Inspecting Russian port infrastructure. It's fairly easy: the animal goes down and swims along the length of an undersea piling, wreck, or other structure, or scans the ocean floor looking for an object of interest, and then returns, at which point the footage is collected and reviewed. Or, the footage is transmitted and viewed live by an operator while the animal performs the task. Please explain why you feel the camera would need to be "hidden" for any of this work.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:38 AM   #166
dann
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For that kind of work, a hypothetical camera wouldn't need to be hidden.
In the context, however, you would expect a whale trained for this purpose to go down and swim along the length of an undersea piling, wreck, or other structure, or scan the ocean floor looking for an object of interest, and then return."
That kind of behavior would make you suspect that it was trained to do that. Hvaldimir's actually observed behaviour didn't.
Even returning an Iphone isn't anywhere near that.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:17 AM   #167
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Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military. I don't understand why. The US military has been using marine mammals for decades, why wouldn't the Russians? Why SHOULDN'T the Russians?
And if it was lost from a beneficial facility for handicapped children, why haven't they come forward and asked for help getting it back.
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:21 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military.

Doesn't seem like that to me at all. To me it seems like you should read the exchanges between dann and Checkmite again after you disabled the display of images. Checkmite's avatar seems to trigger some dynamic in you that it seems to me dann is primarily arguing against.
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:46 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military. I don't understand why. The US military has been using marine mammals for decades, why wouldn't the Russians? Why SHOULDN'T the Russians?

If you had followed the thread, you would know that the Russian, and before that, the Soviet Navy have been using marine mammals, too. It's no secret.
You would also know that Checkmite doesn't think that Hvaldimir was trained by the Navy. He also thinks that it's probably a 'therapy whale'. The disagreement between Checkmite and me at this point is pretty trivial: Before the former journalist from Fiskeribladet said that he recognized Hvaldimir's behavior from a therapy center for disadvantaged children, would you then have had good reason to interpret it as being a whale trained by the Russian Navy or not? Checkmite says that there was good reason for the interpretation that was spread to the world by most leading news media. I say that that the news outlets were (and still are) prejudiced towards telling stories about a defected Russian spy whale. Try googling it for yourself if you don't believe me. And, Checkmite, correct me if you think that my presentation of our disagreement is wrong.

Quote:
And if it was lost from a beneficial facility for handicapped children, why haven't they come forward and asked for help getting it back.

Several theories have been suggested; see my many posts and quotations in the thread.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:51 AM   #170
dann
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Doesn't seem like that to me at all. To me it seems like you should read the exchanges between dann and Checkmite again after you disabled the display of images. Checkmite's avatar seems to trigger some dynamic in you that it seems to me dann is primarily arguing against.

Checkmite is a pretty cool-headed guy. Our major disagreements have been in this thread and the one about the Cuban crickets, which may not be a coincidence, considering the Star-spangled banner, but still ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:41 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Checkmite is a pretty cool-headed guy. Our major disagreements have been in this thread and the one about the Cuban crickets, which may not be a coincidence, considering the Star-spangled banner, but still ....

Yeah I don't think I had much interaction with Checkmite but I didn't mean to bash the avatar, just thought it could have been a trigger of a certain "us versus them" dynamic that seems to have led to Trebuchet's misunderstanding of your conversation.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:35 AM   #172
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I find DanishDynamite's avatar odd.
The name is from a song that's very popular among Danish soccer fans: We're red, we're white, we're Danish dynamite. The very unfortunate (and unintentional, I hope) cutting of the first two-three words makes it sound not only nationalist but also racist:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


But there's news from Norway!

Quote:
– Vi har festet kamera og andre instrumenter til hvalen for å undersøke hva han gjør i neddykket tilstand, forteller Richard Karoliussen.
(...)
– Resultatene av disse målingene blir gjort i USA, og da vil vi få rede på om bevegelsene til hvalen under vann er forenlig med hvordan en hvithval beveger seg når den fanger mat.
Hvalekspert skal vurdere «Hvaldimir»: – Skjebnen er usikker (NRK.no, May 13, 2019)

My translation:
Quote:
– We have attached a camera and other instruments to the whale to find out what he does when he dives, Richar Karoliussen says.
(...)
– The results of these measurements will be done in the USA, and then we will find out if the way that the whale moves when diving is compatible with the way a beluga whale moves when it is catching prey.
[i][url=https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/hvalekspert-fra-spania-skal-vurdere-_hvaldimir__-_-skjebnen-er-usikker-1.14548791]Hvalekspert skal vurdere «Hvaldimir»: – Skjebnen er usikker
Whale expert will examine "Hvaldimir": - His fate is uncertain
I know that this sounds a little odd: "– The results of these measurements will be done in the USA," but it sounds odd in Norwegian, too. It was probably meant to say: - The analysis of these measurements ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #173
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And then there's CJ Hopkins pretending like this is some kind of joke or something

Originally Posted by CJ Hopkins
[...] And then there’s the evil Russian spywhale, which the disinformationists want us to believe is just a harmless “therapy Beluga” for kids, but which has clearly been strapped with some sort of monstrous, mind-controlling apparatus that enables the Kremlin to remotely implant a host of dangerous “populist” ideas in the brains of defenseless Norwegian fishermen, weaponizing them into a horde of neo-Odinist Viking berserkers who will scream down out of Scandinavia and storm the EU Parliament in Brussels smelling of akvavit and fermented shark.

These Putin-Nazi disinformationists are not to be confused with the corporate media, or other sources of real information, like SafeGuard Cyber, Global Security Review, Bellingcat, Integrity Initiative, The Atlantic Council, E.U. East StratCom Task Force, Foreign Policy Research Institute, and countless other companies, foundations, think tanks, and intelligence agency fronts. These are legitimate information providers, who would never try to disinform the public to serve any sort of corporatist agenda, or to generate any kind of mass hysteria over “terrorists,” “Russians,” “fascists,” or “populists.” [...]
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:59 AM   #174
dann
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Talkshow Queen Ellen Degeneres Showed 'Hvaldimir' to Millions of Viewers (NRK.no, May 21-22, 2019)

Apparently, she mentioned neither spying nor therapy.
And they warn people not to feed their children to the whale!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th May 2019, 06:23 AM   #175
dann
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In post 149, I already mentioned [i]the threat that nobody wants to talk about,' i.e. the reason for the paranoia in Northern Norway. There’s more news about this a few minutes ago. My translation:

Quote:
On Wednesday in a press briefing, Russian authorities announced that they will retaliate if the Globus II radar in Vardø is upgraded.
"There is every reason to believe that the radar will monitor Russian territory and become part of the United States global missile defense network," said Maria Zakharova, spokesperson for the Russian Foreign Ministry.
Vardø is just 28 kilometers from Russia, and close to the most important military facilities in the country on the Kola Peninsula. At least twice, Russia simulated airstrikes against radar facilities in Vardø.
Russian threatens with retaliation (NRK.no, May 24, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2019, 08:37 AM   #176
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This weekend, they feared that Hvaldimir was dying, but apparently it got better:
The beluga whale 'Hvaldimir' almost didn't survive the weekend (NRK.no, May 27, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:31 PM   #177
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Update: satellite pictures are said to show the pod of beluga spy whales from which Hvladimir is said to have escaped and 'defected' to Norway.

Quote:
Russia moved a pod of beluga whales to a secret Arctic base around the time one of its 'spy animals defected to Norway', satellite images suggest.

A beluga was found wearing a harness marked 'equipment of St Petersburg' last month off the coast of Norway - and was refusing to stray far from the harbour.

The sea creature, which had a harness for a camera, was hanging around the port performing tricks for locals in return for food, with many residents joking he had 'defected'.
<snip>

Quote:
It has now been revealed Russia's navy may have taken another pod of whales to the Olenya Guba base, in a bay of the Barents Sea, in the north west of the country around the time of the incident.

The pictures, taken from space in April, were released by defence analysts at H I Sutton and show two new pens along a pier in the base - with one appearing to contain a white beluga.
You can see the satellite pictures here.
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:06 PM   #178
dann
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Yes, the Daily Mail probably wouldn't know (and wouldn't want to know) about the journalist from Fiskeribladet and his story about where Hvaldimir came from since it would ruin the Russian-spy-whale story. The pod story is much better.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2019, 06:47 AM   #179
dann
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Quote:
Siden dag én har forsker ved Institutt for arktisk og marin biologi på Universitet i Tromsø, Audun Rikardsen, vært fast bestemt på at hvalen har tilknytning til militæret i Russland.
Nye satellittbilder kan avsløre hvor «Hvaldimir» kommer fra - Ifølge nye kilder tyder svært mye på at hvithvalen «Hvaldimir» har rømt fra det russiske forsvaret. (NRK.no, May 29-31, 2019)

My translation:
Quote:
Since day one, researcher at the Institute of Arctic and Marine Biology at the University of Tromsø, Audun Rikardsen, has been convinced that the whale is affiliated with the Russian military.
New satellite photos may reveal where "Hvaldimir" comes from - According to new sources, many things indicate that the beluga whale "Hvaldimir" escaped from the Russian military

Unfortunately, his preconceptions also appear to make him ignore many of the arguments from the former journalist at Fiskeribladet, for instance when he offered a very different explanation for the harness that the whale was wearing when it first appeared.
But read the whole article. (However, the Google translation of Poljarnij --> Poland is weird!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 2nd June 2019 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:05 AM   #180
dann
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Fundraising for Hvaldimir on facebook.

Volunteers have spent 150,000 Norwegian kroner for Hvaldimir to be well (NRK.no, June 6, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:05 AM   #181
dann
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Norway's favourite pet impressed Erna Solberg with cool tricks (NRK.no, June 19, 2019). Erna Solberg (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st July 2019, 04:32 AM   #182
dann
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Hvaldimir has been straying lately: Hvaldimir har dratt - igjen (NRK.no, July 21, 2019)
Hvithvalen 'Hvaldimir' (NRK.no)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st July 2019 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:07 PM   #183
dann
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Researchers fear that Hvaldimir was scared away from Hammerfest. My translation:

Quote:
- Did he leave because he was disturbed by a high level of activity or loud sounds? Or did people in boats lure or scare him out of the harbour? If that is the case, and Hvaldimir can't find his way back, he may be very confused now, Eve Jourdain writes in an emotional post on Facebook. - My heart is broken, she also writes.
Fear that people scared Hvaldimir away from Hammerfest (NRK.no, July 21, 2019)

I notice that nobody seems to think that the alleged spy whale defected from the Norwegian harbour ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th July 2019, 12:18 AM   #184
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Perhaps he had to communicate his findings to his handler.

Probably using a one-time pod.
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Old 12th August 2019, 07:01 AM   #185
dann
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Is it possible that Hvaldimir has joined a gang of orca whales and gone gay?
What the whale stuck out of the water, didn't look like a fin (NRK.no, Aug. 5-6, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th September 2019, 04:53 AM   #186
dann
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More Bad News

Quote:
- Some people have been running circles around Hvaldimir, others have been boating like idiots all over the bay. Several have thrown planks and other things at him from the quays. In the last 24 hours, he got two new propeller wounds in the back.
- I'm afraid that Hvaldimir only eats sporadically and that he doesn't get enough food. This may explain his weight loss and bad shape, Jourdain writes on Facebook.
Hvaldimir er syk og har fått skader: – Flere har kastet planker og andre ting etter ham (NRK.no, Sep. 12, 2019)

If anybody feels like doing a quiz about Hvaldimir, it is now possible to do so - if you know enough Norwegian:

Hva kan du om Hvaldimir? (NRK.no, Aug. 31, 2019)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th September 2019, 12:32 PM   #187
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Russian navy vessel attacked and sunk by marine mammal

They say the war is Cold but the sea contains the hottest blood of all.
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Old 26th September 2019, 01:32 PM   #188
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Walruses are the weaponized hippopotami of the ocean!
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Old 26th September 2019, 06:07 PM   #189
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Russian navy vessel attacked and sunk by marine mammal

They say the war is Cold but the sea contains the hottest blood of all.
Shades of the "Essex" back in the 1800's...….
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Old 26th September 2019, 07:45 PM   #190
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"What happened to the boat?"
Putin: "It sank..." *smiles awkwardly*
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Old 27th September 2019, 02:36 AM   #191
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Whats the porpoise in training a white whale to attack? Just a little peck will do here and there, no need to lose a leg over it.

Ugh.
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Old 28th September 2019, 07:31 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
Whats the porpoise in training a white whale to attack? Just a little peck will do here and there, no need to lose a leg over it.

Ugh.

All we're saying to the whales is, don't be a Dick.
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Old 29th September 2019, 12:08 AM   #193
dann
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I forgot to mention that the harassment of the whale took place in Alta, south of Hammerfest, and that

Quote:
The last reports from Alta harbour say that Hvaldimir has left Alta, so it s now uncertain where he appears the next time.
Hvaldimir er syk og har fått skader: – Flere har kastet planker og andre ting etter ham (NRK.no, Sep. 12, 2019)

Since then, there haven't been any new articles at the NRK page about Hvaldimir, so I assume that it has either gone somewhere less populated, died, ... or is being debriefed by the spy agency in St. Petersburg.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd November 2019, 12:05 PM   #194
dann
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Hvaldimir kan bli et lett bytte for spekkhoggere (NRK.no, Oct. 16, 2019)

Amerikaner mener Hvaldimir må flyttes fra Finnmark (NRK.no, Nov. 19, 2019)

A researcher fears that Hvaldimir may become the victim of orcas.
An American who is making a documentary about Hvaldimir wants to move him to a different location, but the Norwegians think that it's only for commercial reasons.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd May 2020, 10:09 AM   #195
dann
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Still alive in February, not yet killed by orcas, but moved from Hammerfest to Tromsø (probably not by car).
Heftig «blind date» på jobb: Stirret plutselig Hvaldimir inn i øyet! (NRK.no, Feb. 17, 2020)

This recently released video seems to support the idea that Hvaldimir used to be a 'therapy whale', trying to pull a dinghy:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 3rd May 2020 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 4th May 2020, 12:54 AM   #196
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I disagree that what is shown in this video supports any such thing. Marine mammals of various types, most commonly smaller whales and dolphins, have long been famous for accompanying and playing alongside human sea traffic and being "friendly" with the occupants of vessels and swimmers, going back to the age of tall ships. Some individual animals were so habitual about their interactions that they were given names and reputations; e.g. Pelorius Jack in New Zealand, who was never "trained" as a pilot but nevertheless seems to have taken it upon himself to function as one for a period of years at the turn of the 20th Century.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 4th May 2020 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 4th May 2020, 02:23 AM   #197
dann
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Yes, accompanying, playing and being friendly, that is quite common, and I have had the fun experience of being carried, in upright position, by two dolphins at the Delfinario de Cienfuegos, like this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

They were trained animals, of course, but in the case of Hvaldimir, you ignore what I wrote: ”trying to pull a dinghy.”
That
is what seems to confirm the idea that Hvaldimir/Semyon used to be a therapy whale, playing with disabled children, pulling small boats or floats.
From the Hvaldimir video, at 1:08-1:33:
Quote:
But his favourite was the rubber dinghy we were towing!
He was pulling the dinghy around for a long time

Quote:
Morten Vikeby, a former Norwegian consul in Murmansk, has suggested that Hvaldimir is a therapy animal from a programme for disabled children at the Arctic Circle Padi Dive Centre and Lodge, near the Russian–Norwegian border; specifically, he may be Semyon, who was placed with the centre while still young after being attacked by sealions and was featured in an article Vikeby wrote about the institution in 2008 for the magazine Fiskeribladet. The harness would be for the purpose of towing a boat with children inside. That institution no longer uses therapy belugas, and Vikeby suggests making use of Hvaldimir to advertise Hammerfest.
Hvaldimir: Theories and naming (Wikipedia)

I wonder how airlines would react to belugas as emotional support animals …
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 4th May 2020, 05:19 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The USA had an idea for attaching incendiaries to bats and releasing them over Japanese cities during WW 2 (where they would roust in and ignite the wooden buildings). Experiments in US failed; never actually used on Japan.
No actually the experiments in US worked pretty good. Too good in fact. They managed to burn down the whole base!
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Old 4th May 2020, 03:11 PM   #199
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They were trained animals, of course, but in the case of Hvaldimir, you ignore what I wrote: ”trying to pull a dinghy.”
That
is what seems to confirm the idea that Hvaldimir/Semyon used to be a therapy whale, playing with disabled children, pulling small boats or floats.
From the Hvaldimir video, at 1:08-1:33:
That seems to be a dubious claim on the part of the former reporter, however. The part about the harness, I mean.

The article at the link features this video, posted last year by the former reporter, of a "therapy whale" report from 2008. Although the former reporter worked for Norwegian paper Fiskeribladet, the video itself is Russian, and appears to be a piece by a local Russian television station:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


There are problems of consistency, here. In the video, children interact with the whale. However, the whale is kept in an enclosure which the children approach and board from a motorized boat. But the whale is never shown pulling children around in any small boats; indeed, there are no small boats inside the enclosure at all that could theoretically be used for this purpose off-camera, and the whale in the enclosure is clearly not wearing a harness of any sort.

Further web searches using the search terms "Arctic Circle dive centre" and "whale" produce numerous photographs and even videos of divers interacting with Beluga whales, but not one single image of such a whale wearing a harness.

The much more recent video of "Hvaldimir" on the other hand shows the whale poking and tugging at the dinghy and its lines which drape into the water, but in a way that suggests simple curiosity more than a positive intent to pull or tow the boat anywhere.

The Arctic Circle Dive Centre is certainly a valid potential origin point of the lost whale; however the video fails to establish the connection it is alleged to establish, and it would currently not be reasonable to assert that the Artic Circle Dive Centre is a more likely origin point than the originally-proposed Murmansk Sea Biology Research Institute, especially given that the dive center is more than three times further away from the place where "Hvaldimir" was first spotted than Murmansk is, on the complete opposite side of the Kola Peninsula.
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Old 5th May 2020, 01:38 AM   #200
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That seems to be a dubious claim on the part of the former reporter, however. The part about the harness, I mean.

No, it doesn't seem to be a dubious claim at all!
You seem to think that because an article based in part on the article written by "Morten Vikeby, a former Norwegian consul in Murmansk," and is accompanied by a video that he didn't make, his claim becomes dubious because the video doesn't show some of the things mentioned by him: a beluga whale in a harness tugging a boat.
The video shows children being taken to look at a tame beluga whale in an enclosure. That is all it's supposed to do. Nobody claims that the video is supposed to prove anything, so it doesn't make the claim dubious when it doesn't.

Quote:
"It was wearing a harness because it was used to dragging boats with children on board," the reporter added. "This is the reason why he is so social."
Russian 'spy whale' may have provided therapy for children (Deutsche Welle, May 8, 2019)

By the way, even if the video had shown a harnessed beluga whale tugging a boat full of therapy-needing children, it still wouldn't be proof positive that Hvaldimir is the one that used to do so. And your inability to find a video like that doesn't prove that it didn't happen. The first time I tried to find videos of people at the dolphinarium in Cuba being pushed out of the water standing on the snouts of dolphins, I also couldn't find any. There were plenty of other videos of people interacting with dolphins in other ways, which, according to your line of reasoning, makes my anecdotal claim dubious. (And the footage of people doing so still doesn't prove that I did.)
If you want to make the former Norwegian consul's claim seem dubious, you will have to come up with more than your lack of video evidence that proves his claim. What makes his testimony dubious?! Why is he an unreliable witness?

Quote:
The much more recent video of "Hvaldimir" on the other hand shows the whale poking and tugging at the dinghy and its lines which drape into the water, but in a way that suggests simple curiosity more than a positive intent to pull or tow the boat anywhere.

You base this on 25 seconds from the video and ignore that it says that "his favourite was the rubber dinghy we were towing! He was pulling the dinghy around for a long time."
It's too bad that they didn't record him the whole time, but I guess they didn't know that the video footage was going to be needed as evidence.


And now let's hear the case for the spy whale story!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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