ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th June 2019, 10:14 PM   #1801
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,553
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Having a smoke detector would probably not help a person in that fire.

I think in a building the best detectors are fire sprinklers. Far less prone to false alarms. They also will put out many fires and contain most of the rest.

Smoke detectors are far too prone to false alarms.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 10:23 PM   #1802
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,428
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your post is garbage. For example if cooking odors mask smoke then the odors would set off any smoke detectors.



No. I am interested in facts, not stories. I hope you have facts.
Yes, in this particular instance, advising the residents to go back in their apartments and sit and wait was not the proper response. And most of them died because of it.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 11:05 PM   #1803
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,029
I think perhaps that some people do not entirely understand what smoke detectors detect, and how.

It's my understanding that ionization detectors detect things that a nose cannot always do, and that odors do not set them off.

I suppose perhaps it depends on one's dwelling too. If you have a basement or attic it can be quite involved before you smell anything.

I knew a person whose house burned down, and the fire was entirely undetected until it burned through the basement ceiling, which was three inch homosote. The house was entirely, and structurally, a goner before any smoke reached the dwelling section. The smoke alarms saved them, allowing them to escape moments before the floor collapsed.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 11:15 PM   #1804
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,677
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your post is garbage. For example if cooking odors mask smoke then the odors would set off any smoke detectors.



No. I am interested in facts, not stories. I hope you have facts.
You're post is wrong on many levels.

Even if you are only thinking about a single house, a smoke detector could easily spot a fire in one room before someone in a different room could smell it. In a large building with multiple rooms that is far clearer.

Also, and my information is 20 years out of date, modern fire detection systems use multiple different types of sensor, for example the effects of smoke on the optical or electrical properties of the air in the sensor region, absolute temperature and rate of rise in temperature, often coupled with the smoke detectors, the amount of carbon monoxide or other combustion gases, the flicker from flames, or a localised source of heat, and the signature from multiple sensors integrated into and analysed by the fire detection system controller. Also, manual alarm points are included.

Yes, if you are in a room and are paying attention at the place where the fire starts, you might beat a smoke detector, but I wouldn't be sure if you were in the same room and you were not paying particular attention to that. Remember, smoke alarms tend to be situated on ceilings, where the smoke will tend to congregate first.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 11:20 PM   #1805
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,677
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think perhaps that some people do not entirely understand what smoke detectors detect, and how.

It's my understanding that ionization detectors detect things that a nose cannot always do, and that odors do not set them off.

I suppose perhaps it depends on one's dwelling too. If you have a basement or attic it can be quite involved before you smell anything.

I knew a person whose house burned down, and the fire was entirely undetected until it burned through the basement ceiling, which was three inch homosote. The house was entirely, and structurally, a goner before any smoke reached the dwelling section. The smoke alarms saved them, allowing them to escape moments before the floor collapsed.
yes the ionization detectors look at the electrical effect of smoke on conductivity through ionized air. Optical smoke detectors look at how the transmission and/or reflection of light is affected and gas detectors look for combustion gases, for example CO, which is both odorless and toxic.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 9th June 2019 at 11:21 PM. Reason: spurious part sentence
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 12:28 AM   #1806
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Yes, it is called the human nose. Smoke detectors are only any good if no humans are around. Or if they are asleep.
Some residents were complaining about a lack of smoke alarms, which raises questions. By law rental properties much have smoke and CO2 alarms, so if those residents are renters, the landlord/s are at fault. If, on the other hand, they are owner-occupiers, they can't complain if they didn't fit them themselves.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:09 AM   #1807
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,681
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your post is garbage. For example if cooking odors mask smoke then the odors would set off any smoke detectors.
That's the point, a smoke alarm is more sensitive than a nose.
Some fires don't have visible smoke or any smell.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:31 AM   #1808
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,440
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Some residents were complaining about a lack of smoke alarms, which raises questions. By law rental properties much have smoke and CO2 alarms, so if those residents are renters, the landlord/s are at fault. If, on the other hand, they are owner-occupiers, they can't complain if they didn't fit them themselves.
Wow. As I understand it, this is a new development block by Belway Homes (?). How is it possible in this day and age to build such a complex that burns down so easily?

An elderly relative was in a 'senior' apartment and this had sprinklers on the ceiling, an emergency wall phone and even a cctv camera as the elderly can be forgetful about what's on the oven. (He also had a wrist band connected to an emergency call out service in case he fell and could not get up.)

Why can't sprinklers at least be a matter of course in new apartment blocks? In Sweden nobody even uses gas.

Geez.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:35 AM   #1809
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,719
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If there are any humans around they will smell the fire. They should then raise the alarm. All of this long before any smoke detectors have gone off.

Smoke detectors are only good for areas where there are no alert humans.
Nonsense. An alert human can be in the next room with a door shut between them and the fire and the smoke alarm will prove its worth. There are many everyday situations where the smoke alarm beats a human nose.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:36 AM   #1810
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow. As I understand it, this is a new development block by Belway Homes (?). How is it possible in this day and age to build such a complex that burns down so easily?
Bellway? That reminds me of something on a news a few weeks back...

BBC News: 'New-build homes not fire safe', BBC investigation finds

"Houses developed by Persimmon Homes and Bellway Homes have potentially dangerous fire safety issues, BBC Watchdog Live has found.

New-builds constructed by the firms were sold with missing or incorrectly installed fire barriers, which are designed to inhibit the spread of fire.

In some cases, it's thought a lack of fire barriers contributed to the spread of fires that have destroyed homes.

Persimmon Homes and Bellway Homes both said they were addressing the issue.

Building Regulations require that by law new homes are built with fire protection measures to delay the spread of fire and allow crucial time for escape.

In many new builds, particularly timber-framed buildings, fire barriers are a vital part of this fire protection.

The barriers are used to form a complete seal between different areas of a home, and without them, experts say, fire and smoke can spread five to ten times faster."
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 03:22 AM   #1811
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,440
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Bellway? That reminds me of something on a news a few weeks back...

BBC News: 'New-build homes not fire safe', BBC investigation finds

"Houses developed by Persimmon Homes and Bellway Homes have potentially dangerous fire safety issues, BBC Watchdog Live has found.

New-builds constructed by the firms were sold with missing or incorrectly installed fire barriers, which are designed to inhibit the spread of fire.

In some cases, it's thought a lack of fire barriers contributed to the spread of fires that have destroyed homes.

Persimmon Homes and Bellway Homes both said they were addressing the issue.

Building Regulations require that by law new homes are built with fire protection measures to delay the spread of fire and allow crucial time for escape.

In many new builds, particularly timber-framed buildings, fire barriers are a vital part of this fire protection.

The barriers are used to form a complete seal between different areas of a home, and without them, experts say, fire and smoke can spread five to ten times faster."

I wonder if the fire was caused by a disgruntled arsonist. I hope the block was as yet uninhabited. i know Persimmon has been in the news because of their new housing estates constructed as fast as you can say Jack Robinson, with residents claiming all kinds of structural faults, for example too much sand to cement mixture causing the walls to crumble. Many of the London developments are participants in George Osborne's affordable housing scheme, which on the face of it looks like a great way for young adults to get on the housing ladder in London, with as little as £5,000 deposit needed (although usually a lot more). The catch is, steep 'service charges' which means the residents pay not only high levels or mortgage repayments (thanks to the low deposit paid) but they also have to pay high service charges, which although lower than London average rents, nonetheless means a typical outlay for a new two-bed apartment is as much as £2,000 pcm. Negative equity soon becomes inevitable as the 'owner' (in reality it is owned by the bank and the property provider) can't sell up without a massive loss and are stuck in a building that soon looks shabby after a few years.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb

Last edited by Vixen; 10th June 2019 at 03:23 AM.
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 03:46 AM   #1812
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,681
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I wonder if the fire was caused by a disgruntled arsonist. I hope the block was as yet uninhabited. i know Persimmon has been in the news because of their new housing estates constructed as fast as you can say Jack Robinson, with residents claiming all kinds of structural faults, for example too much sand to cement mixture causing the walls to crumble. Many of the London developments are participants in George Osborne's affordable housing scheme, which on the face of it looks like a great way for young adults to get on the housing ladder in London, with as little as £5,000 deposit needed (although usually a lot more). The catch is, steep 'service charges' which means the residents pay not only high levels or mortgage repayments (thanks to the low deposit paid) but they also have to pay high service charges, which although lower than London average rents, nonetheless means a typical outlay for a new two-bed apartment is as much as £2,000 pcm. Negative equity soon becomes inevitable as the 'owner' (in reality it is owned by the bank and the property provider) can't sell up without a massive loss and are stuck in a building that soon looks shabby after a few years.
If you watch the report on the BBC link you will see it was occupied, there are interviews with residents.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 09:44 AM   #1813
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,765
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Your post is garbage. For example if cooking odors mask smoke then the odors would set off any smoke detectors.
.....
Cooking odors don't set off smoke detectors. Burned food does, but that's because it's burned. Whether someone might smell smoke quickly depends on where he is and where the fire is, but generally a smoke detector will sense particles of combustion before they can be smelled.

Your posts are truly bizarre. I have literally never heard of anybody disparaging smoke detectors before.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 09:56 AM   #1814
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,765
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Some residents were complaining about a lack of smoke alarms, which raises questions. By law rental properties much have smoke and CO2 alarms, so if those residents are renters, the landlord/s are at fault. If, on the other hand, they are owner-occupiers, they can't complain if they didn't fit them themselves.
Home smoke detectors only function within the individual units. As I recall, the complaint was that the building itself didn't have functional building-wide alarms. The resident of the unit where the fire started certainly knew about it, but smoke alarms in other units wouldn't sound until they actually sensed smoke, which wouldn't have happened until smoke started to fill the 22-story building. If the unit alarms had been interconnected so one would activate all (a major inconvenience in the event of a false alarm), or if the building had an interconnected alarm system monitoring the halls and public spaces, residents might have had a chance to escape earlier. (Of course, some didn't leave because of that "shelter in place" advice, and others couldn't because there was only one staircase, but those are other issues.)
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 01:49 PM   #1815
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Home smoke detectors only function within the individual units. As I recall, the complaint was that the building itself didn't have functional building-wide alarms. The resident of the unit where the fire started certainly knew about it, but smoke alarms in other units wouldn't sound until they actually sensed smoke, which wouldn't have happened until smoke started to fill the 22-story building. If the unit alarms had been interconnected so one would activate all (a major inconvenience in the event of a false alarm), or if the building had an interconnected alarm system monitoring the halls and public spaces, residents might have had a chance to escape earlier. (Of course, some didn't leave because of that "shelter in place" advice, and others couldn't because there was only one staircase, but those are other issues.)
I was responding to comments about the fire this week, not Grenfell.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2019, 02:14 PM   #1816
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,765
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I was responding to comments about the fire this week, not Grenfell.
Sorry. But since you mentioned it, in the U.S. government code inspectors are supposed to sign off on buildings, particularly homes, at certain stages of their construction. Wouldn't that be true in the UK too? How can hundreds of homes have been built with a basic construction flaw?
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2019, 07:11 AM   #1817
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,440
From Gary Younge in the GRAUNIAD on the second anniversary of the Grenfell fire, referring to Bellway Homes' recent fire in Barking:

Quote:
Last month Peter Mason, the chair of the Barking Reach residents’ association, contacted the builder Bellway Homes, requesting an investigation into the fire risk at his block of flats, following a BBC Watchdog report that revealed fire safety problems at two other Bellway developments. The company reassured him there was nothing to worry about. The wooden cladding had been treated so that it would take 30 minutes before a fire could take hold. “We understand that these news articles are highly alarming for all residents of new homes,” the company responded. “And I hope that the above statement has allayed any fears you may have over the safety and construction of your Bellway home.”
It seems to prove that half the time these spontaneous knee jerk 'reassurances' are little more than platitudes, insincere and lazy in their total disregard in getting up off their backside and actively investigating a complaint. They just speak to a script, so it is no wonder why their residents get frustrated.

Ask a shop or a manufacturer a simple question about the safety of their product and they are ready with a pat 'reassurance'.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2019, 07:47 AM   #1818
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
BBC News: Barking fire - Barbecue may have caused' blaze at flats

"A barbecue on a balcony could have caused a block of flats to be engulfed by fire, according to its builders.

Twenty flats with wooden balconies were destroyed and 10 more damaged in Sunday's fire in Barking, east London.

Residents said concerns were raised with builder Bellway Homes about potential fire hazards.

A Bellway spokesman said they it was "relieved that the fire protection measures... ensured that occupants were safely evacuated".

The London Fire Brigade said the cause of the fire was still under investigation.

Fire investigators and scientific advisers have been at the scene carrying out "extensive investigations", the service added.

Bellway said: "We understand that the blaze was contained to the external envelope of the eastern elevation of the building, with initial reports suggesting that it was caused by a barbecue on a resident's balcony.""

Hmmm...

Last edited by Information Analyst; 14th June 2019 at 07:48 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2019, 04:11 PM   #1819
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,440
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Barking fire - Barbecue may have caused' blaze at flats

"A barbecue on a balcony could have caused a block of flats to be engulfed by fire, according to its builders.

Twenty flats with wooden balconies were destroyed and 10 more damaged in Sunday's fire in Barking, east London.

Residents said concerns were raised with builder Bellway Homes about potential fire hazards.

A Bellway spokesman said they it was "relieved that the fire protection measures... ensured that occupants were safely evacuated".

The London Fire Brigade said the cause of the fire was still under investigation.

Fire investigators and scientific advisers have been at the scene carrying out "extensive investigations", the service added.

Bellway said: "We understand that the blaze was contained to the external envelope of the eastern elevation of the building, with initial reports suggesting that it was caused by a barbecue on a resident's balcony.""

Hmmm...
LOL The residents were all safe but their homes and belongings were burnt to a cinder. That's all right, then.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2019, 01:54 AM   #1820
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,496
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC News: Barking fire - Barbecue may have caused' blaze at flats



"A barbecue on a balcony could have caused a block of flats to be engulfed by fire, according to its builders.



Twenty flats with wooden balconies were destroyed and 10 more damaged in Sunday's fire in Barking, east London.



Residents said concerns were raised with builder Bellway Homes about potential fire hazards.



A Bellway spokesman said they it was "relieved that the fire protection measures... ensured that occupants were safely evacuated".



The London Fire Brigade said the cause of the fire was still under investigation.



Fire investigators and scientific advisers have been at the scene carrying out "extensive investigations", the service added.



Bellway said: "We understand that the blaze was contained to the external envelope of the eastern elevation of the building, with initial reports suggesting that it was caused by a barbecue on a resident's balcony.""



Hmmm...
Amazing quote from Bellway. The fire didn't look "contained to the external envelope" to me. That makes it sound as if only the wooden balconies burned. It was *spread* by the "external envelope", in a way all too reminiscent of Grenfell, and the flats were gutted.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 01:42 AM   #1821
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
I wonder if the person who had alleged barbecue will be prosecuted/sued....
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 11:02 AM   #1822
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 86,002
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I wonder if the person who had alleged barbecue will be prosecuted/sued....
Does that usually happen when fires are started by accident?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 01:38 PM   #1823
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Does that usually happen when fires are started by accident?
It depends how negligent they were. Having a barbecue on a wooden balcony on a block of flats sounds pretty reckless to me. Certainly a couple of people I know who had flats with balconies with wooden floors said barbecues were prohibited by the management company.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 02:40 PM   #1824
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,448
I've lived in several wooden-construction multi-story apartment complexes. Quite a few occupants had barbecues on the wooden balconies.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 05:51 PM   #1825
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,466
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It depends how negligent they were. Having a barbecue on a wooden balcony on a block of flats sounds pretty reckless to me. Certainly a couple of people I know who had flats with balconies with wooden floors said barbecues were prohibited by the management company.

IFC recommendations are that no open flame cooking devices should be used within 10ft. of any combustible structure. (Also the NFPA.)

Individual states, municipalities, or regional governments can adopt those rules as policy. Landlords can do the same.

Some do. Some don't.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 05:54 PM   #1826
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,466
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I've lived in several wooden-construction multi-story apartment complexes. Quite a few occupants had barbecues on the wooden balconies.

Me to.

I was working out-of-town and living in an apartment in Blacksburg, VA around twelve years ago. When I moved in they allowed barbecues on the balcony. About six months later the state adopted the NFPA fire safety rules and they didn't anymore.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #1827
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,344
We used to have two smoke detectors, now we have one. One of them, the one in the bedroom, malfunctioned and started going off every time someone had a shower. Now we just have the one in the hallway, which is fine because we just have a small apartment, and smoke from a fire anywhere in it would get to the detector before getting to people not in the area where the fire was.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 06:02 PM   #1828
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,078
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
IFC recommendations are that no open flame cooking devices should be used within 10ft. of any combustible structure. (Also the NFPA.)

Individual states, municipalities, or regional governments can adopt those rules as policy. Landlords can do the same.

Some do. Some don't.
Interesting. The burner flames on our indoor gas stove are more “open” than the flames on my outdoor gas grill, which has a lid that is normally closed while cooking. Seems it would be a difficult regulation to enforce, absent the banning of gas stoves.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th June 2019, 08:11 PM   #1829
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,029
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Interesting. The burner flames on our indoor gas stove are more “open” than the flames on my outdoor gas grill, which has a lid that is normally closed while cooking. Seems it would be a difficult regulation to enforce, absent the banning of gas stoves.
I too have a gas grill on a wooden porch, surrounded by nice seasoned firewood. Needless to say, since it's a nice well behaved unit and I'm a careful user, no problems are likely ever to arise.

However, if you're making a law, unless there's a grill inspector on the job, a blanket ban is likely the only way to prevent rusted out old charcoal grills and hibachis and hot oil turkey fryers, operated by people who are drunk or stoned or just plain irresponsible, or by their children, and tripped over by their dogs and drunken relatives, etc. etc.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th June 2019, 12:58 AM   #1830
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,553
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It depends how negligent they were. Having a barbecue on a wooden balcony on a block of flats sounds pretty reckless to me. Certainly a couple of people I know who had flats with balconies with wooden floors said barbecues were prohibited by the management company.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I've lived in several wooden-construction multi-story apartment complexes. Quite a few occupants had barbecues on the wooden balconies.
I suggest that the landlord could also be investigated.
1. Did they ban BBQs?
2. Did they ensure that the residents knew about this ban?
3. How much did and should the landlord know about how flammable the balconies were?
Then also investigate other flats for similar problems.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:13 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.