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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 18th July 2017, 05:44 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Has there even been a comment as to what actually happened?

The scenarios that are possible in my mind (add more if you have any)

1. Had his gun out, on his lap, realized she wasn't a threat, reached to put it back in it's holster discharged it.

2. Thought she was threatening the driver, reaching in her pocket, and leaned over firing once into the woman through the door. (Most cops are taught to shoot more than once, which leads me to #1 being more accurate, BUT, he was firing close to his partner which may have caused him to shoot only once.)

3. She was actually threatening the driver, and he fired once killing her.
#3 is certain to not be the case and 1 or two are both stupid.
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:45 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Also, juries are not arbiters of fact. Very often they are trying/having to sift through the lies and purposefully misleading statements of prosecutor and/or defendant's lawyer.
And as such they become the legal arbiter of fact. That is one of the primary roles of the jury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier_of_fact
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Old 18th July 2017, 08:17 AM   #163
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I speculate that this will be an accidental discharge of the gun based on two bits of information.

She was shot through the door. That's through the interior panel and the sheet metal of the door. She was not shot through the open window as would likely occur if she somehow presented a lethal threat.

She was shot in the stomach (abdomen). This coincides with a shot through the door itself rather than the window. A properly aimed defensive shot would have been to the chest, not the stomach.

I don't know why he would have had his gun in that position but in my speculation he is not intentionally aiming at her.
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Old 18th July 2017, 08:43 AM   #164
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Those are quite reasonable arguments .. accidental discharge is a bit less concerning than intentional shooting. None the less, the cop should face Involuntary manslaughter charge. I understand cops will shot someone by mistake time to time .. I don't understand how they can avoid persecution in such cases. That only promotes recklessness.
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Old 18th July 2017, 08:49 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I speculate that this will be an accidental discharge of the gun based on two bits of information.
....
I just note that firearms instructors teach that there's no such thing as "accidental" discharge. It's always "negligent" discharge. It doesn't happen unless you do something wrong.
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Old 18th July 2017, 08:52 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that firearms instructors teach that there's no such thing as "accidental" discharge. It's always "negligent" discharge. It doesn't happen unless you do something wrong.
Does that help though? It just means people think that they are careful and it will not happen to them. And when it does they will not change their views.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:01 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Does that help though?
It makes him more guilty, I guess.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:08 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Does that help though? It just means people think that they are careful and it will not happen to them. And when it does they will not change their views.
It assigns responsibility. Somebody who shoots his TV -- or much worse -- doesn't get to say "Aw, stuff happens." He has to say "I screwed up." In the Minneapolis case, the best the cop can say is "I screwed up," and he should pay a high price for it. If he wants to go down the "I was scared" road, he and the community will be worse off for it.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:17 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I speculate that this will be an accidental discharge of the gun based on two bits of information.

She was shot through the door. That's through the interior panel and the sheet metal of the door. She was not shot through the open window as would likely occur if she somehow presented a lethal threat.

She was shot in the stomach (abdomen). This coincides with a shot through the door itself rather than the window. A properly aimed defensive shot would have been to the chest, not the stomach.

I don't know why he would have had his gun in that position but in my speculation he is not intentionally aiming at her.
Who knows what the officers' version of events will be....

For example they could have feared that she presented such a threat that even aiming towards the chest could have put their lives at risk and so they took a shot through the door. Without any camera evidence, there'll be nothing to contradict the officers' account.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:23 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It assigns responsibility. Somebody who shoots his TV -- or much worse -- doesn't get to say "Aw, stuff happens." He has to say "I screwed up." In the Minneapolis case, the best the cop can say is "I screwed up," and he should pay a high price for it. If he wants to go down the "I was scared" road, he and the community will be worse off for it.
But does it achieve a useful result? I mean I didn't see calls for charges against someone at a gun show shooting someone by accident while demonstrating a quick draw holster(not sure if that helped the sales pitch or not).
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:25 AM   #171
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Here is a link to the department's policies regarding use of body cams and vehicle recorders. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/poli...cy_4-200_4-200

I'm not certain that an officer responding to a complaint and subsequent interaction with the general public requires activation of the cameras.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:27 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I speculate that this will be an accidental discharge of the gun based on two bits of information.

She was shot through the door. That's through the interior panel and the sheet metal of the door. She was not shot through the open window as would likely occur if she somehow presented a lethal threat.

She was shot in the stomach (abdomen). This coincides with a shot through the door itself rather than the window. A properly aimed defensive shot would have been to the chest, not the stomach.

I don't know why he would have had his gun in that position but in my speculation he is not intentionally aiming at her.
A couple of stories have indicated that Noor is not going with an accidental discharge story.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:35 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Who knows what the officers' version of events will be....

For example they could have feared that she presented such a threat that even aiming towards the chest could have put their lives at risk and so they took a shot through the door. Without any camera evidence, there'll be nothing to contradict the officers' account.
There will be forensic facts from the car door and the autopsy which can support or contradict whatever is said by the cops.

We don't know what will be found. The bullet may have entered the door at her knee level and deflected upwards to her abdomen. Something like this could support accidental or negligent discharge. Also if only one shot instead of multiple.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:39 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But does it achieve a useful result? I mean I didn't see calls for charges against someone at a gun show shooting someone by accident while demonstrating a quick draw holster(not sure if that helped the sales pitch or not).
Sweeping/pointing the muzzle of a gun at a person in a gun store or at a gun show is likely to result in a request to leave the premises.

At least at the places I visit.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:42 AM   #175
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I think it would be lucky for an accidental discharge to have missed his partner.
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:55 AM   #176
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Lucky for the partner, at any rate.
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Old 18th July 2017, 10:14 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I think it would be lucky for an accidental discharge to have missed his partner.
Yeah, I was thinking that for it to be a negligent discharge through the door then he would have been 'resting' the muzzle of his pistol pretty much up against the side of his partners leg... that seems like an OSHA violation.

Last edited by Giz; 18th July 2017 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 18th July 2017, 10:28 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
A couple of stories have indicated that Noor is not going with an accidental discharge story.
If you're a trained up individual and fire your duty weapon unintentionally, on duty or off, it's negligent.

Depending on the level of stupidity involved, it should be treated as simple negligence or criminal negligence.
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:39 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There will be forensic facts from the car door and the autopsy which can support or contradict whatever is said by the cops.
Since when has physical evidence contradicting a police officers story ever mattered in a court of law? It is video(that rarely matters) or nothing.
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:41 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Sweeping/pointing the muzzle of a gun at a person in a gun store or at a gun show is likely to result in a request to leave the premises.

At least at the places I visit.
It was demonstrating a quick draw.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1849288

Just one of those things that happens.
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:49 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Since when has physical evidence contradicting a police officers story ever mattered in a court of law? It is video(that rarely matters) or nothing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_Green
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:55 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It was demonstrating a quick draw.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1849288

Just one of those things that happens.
What a complete moron.
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:55 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Wow, totally wouldn't be charged with anything today.
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Old 18th July 2017, 04:48 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I speculate that this will be an accidental discharge of the gun based on two bits of information.

She was shot through the door. That's through the interior panel and the sheet metal of the door. She was not shot through the open window as would likely occur if she somehow presented a lethal threat.

She was shot in the stomach (abdomen). This coincides with a shot through the door itself rather than the window. A properly aimed defensive shot would have been to the chest, not the stomach.

I don't know why he would have had his gun in that position but in my speculation he is not intentionally aiming at her.

Both bits assume that the cop was actually aiming, and that he hit what he was aiming at.

There is only a few inches difference between the abdomen and the chest.

I see no reason to make either assumption.
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Old 18th July 2017, 04:58 PM   #185
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Major contributing factor that has not been reported until now.

Someone setting off fireworks near the police car at the same time she was approaching it. Now I can visualize a scenario.
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:03 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But does it achieve a useful result? I mean I didn't see calls for charges against someone at a gun show shooting someone by accident while demonstrating a quick draw holster(not sure if that helped the sales pitch or not).

Geoffrey Hawk was charged with simple assault (even though his victim felt he had done nothing wrong). His lawyer was trying to get him probation at the last report I could find.

He was reported to have said that he didn't know how a bullet got into the .380 semiautomatic pistol.

I know.

Somebody put it there.

I don't understand the concept that this sort of negligence is somehow blameless. Firearms aren't called lethal weapons for no reason. Their use requires a certain level of responsibility, and anyone who fails to apply that level is culpable.

I won't go as far as to say that there can't ever be any gun "accidents", but this wasn't one of them.

I don't subscribe to the concept of accidental discharge either, not under any but the rarest circumstances.

He was clearly negligent for not verifying that the gun was unloaded immediately before he started playing quick-draw games in a crowd of people. Checking to see if a firearm is loaded any time it has been out of your immediate possession since the last time you checked is basic gun safety. You never assume. At least, that's the way I was taught.
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:16 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Has there even been a comment as to what actually happened?

The scenarios that are possible in my mind (add more if you have any)

1. Had his gun out, on his lap, realized she wasn't a threat, reached to put it back in it's holster discharged it.

2. Thought she was threatening the driver, reaching in her pocket, and leaned over firing once into the woman through the door. (Most cops are taught to shoot more than once, which leads me to #1 being more accurate, BUT, he was firing close to his partner which may have caused him to shoot only once.)

3. She was actually threatening the driver, and he fired once killing her.
4. Deliberate murder for motives unknown. (Not that I think this is likely, but it's another possibility.)
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:42 PM   #188
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According to this report, fireworks may be blamed...

Quote:
In a three minute, 25 second clip, officers report the shots fired call and begin CPR, saying there are "no suspects" at large and ask medics' location.

At one point in the audio, the dispatcher references "two shots heard to the east."


An officer responds: "We heard those sounds from the station, those are probably aerial fireworks."
http://www.startribune.com/authoriti...ing/435251273/
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:46 PM   #189
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BCA just released a statement with further details:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ooc/new...-Shooting.aspx
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Old 18th July 2017, 05:57 PM   #190
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Just for clarity ... by "through the door" the report meant "Through the car doors open WINDOW" ... according to the most recent reports
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:03 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
BCA just released a statement with further details:
Well there it is. Fireworks sounds then she's immediately at the door and he shoots her through the open window. Maybe there were no words exchanged at all.
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:06 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Major contributing factor that has not been reported until now.

Someone setting off fireworks near the police car at the same time she was approaching it. Now I can visualize a scenario.
Is that near the police car as "in the same city"

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austra...YrC&ocid=wispr

Quote:
The reference to fireworks is heard during the police radio conversations between Officer Noor, his partner Officer Matthew Harrity, the police dispatcher co-ordinating the emergency call and other officers rushing to scene.
At one point the dispatcher asks for a precinct sergeant to acknowledge a report of "two shots heard from the east".
"We heard those sounds from the station," an officer responds.
"Those are probably aerial fireworks."
The cops were told the sounds were probably fireworks
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:08 PM   #193
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
BCA just released a statement with further details:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ooc/new...-Shooting.aspx

Not much to work with.
Quote:
BCA agents interviewed Officer Harrity earlier today. Officer Noor has declined to be interviewed by BCA agents at this time. Officer Noor’s attorney did not provide clarification on when, if ever, an interview would be possible.
According to the BCA’s preliminary investigation, officers Harrity and Noor responded to a 911 call from a woman now identified as Ruszczyk of a possible assault near her residence just after 11:30 p.m. Saturday. Officer Harrity was driving. Officer Noor was in the passenger seat.
The officers drove south through the alley between Washburn and Xerxes avenues toward West 51st Street in search of a suspect. All squad lights were off


As they reached West 51st Street, Officer Harrity indicated that he was startled by a loud sound near the squad. Immediately afterward Ruszczyk approached the driver’s side window of the squad. Harrity indicated that Officer Noor discharged his weapon, striking Ruszczyk through the open driver’s side window.
I guess a loud sound from somewhere "near" is going to become sufficient cause for a reasonable person to feel threatened and start shooting anyone in the vicinity. As long as they're a cop, of course.


I'm a little bit puzzled by this "declined to be interviewed", though.


At the end of the article there was a FAQ of sorts. It included this;

Quote:
Why was one officer interviewed, and the other was not?

Under the law, the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension cannot compel the testimony of either officer.
I can understand why their testimony cannot be compelled, but not why they can just decline to be interviewed,


I don't think a regular person gets that privilege. They might not have to actually answer any questions they are asked. They might have the right to bring their lawyer with them when they are interviewed, but I don't think the average guy on the street can just say "Nah. I'm not interested in talking to you.", and blow it all off.


They're still going to get to visit the station house and listen to the questions, whether they choose to answer them or not.
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:16 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Well there it is. Fireworks sounds then she's immediately at the door and he shoots her through the open window. Maybe there were no words exchanged at all.
If being "passionate" is a clue meaning she yells and panics a lot (someone mentioned that, I think seriously) , she may have ran up to the cruisers window pointing and yelling? just as a firework went off?

Just speculating .. the negligent discharge scenario, several members mentioned sound plausible as well.
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:42 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
If being "passionate" is a clue meaning she yells and panics a lot (someone mentioned that, I think seriously) , she may have ran up to the cruisers window pointing and yelling? just as a firework went off?

<snip>

Anyone who acts distraught or upset after calling the cops to report a prowler in the middle of the night can be considered a credible threat and deserves to be gunned down on the spot?

Because there was a loud noise somewhere?
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Old 18th July 2017, 06:54 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
If being "passionate" is a clue meaning she yells and panics a lot....
she might be qualified to be a cop.
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Old 18th July 2017, 07:01 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It was demonstrating a quick draw.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1849288

Just one of those things that happens.
I thought that must have been an Onion story. Worth its own thread.
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Old 18th July 2017, 07:13 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Well there it is. Fireworks sounds then she's immediately at the door and he shoots her through the open window. Maybe there were no words exchanged at all.
I'll bet that witnesses did not hear any nearby fireworks, just the aerial ones in the distance.

I think he shot her before she said a word.
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Old 18th July 2017, 07:13 PM   #200
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I assumed the cop who fired the shot was the inexperienced one. They both had less than two years experience.
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