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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 19th July 2017, 05:30 AM   #241
alfaniner
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
2) Woman approaches police car calmly; police driver rolls down window and asks her to identify herself, which again she does calmly; police passenger - for reasons as yet unidentified - unilaterally draws his weapon without proper cause, and shoots woman once in abdomen.

.....and a whole host of other possible, feasible scenarios in between.


More facts please.
I'm starting to see a possible logical scenario.

Quote:
A Minneapolis police officer said he was startled by a loud sound near his squad car before his fellow officer shot dead Justine Ruszczyk, state investigators said.
Woman approaches police car.
Someone tosses firecracker at the police car.
Loud bang.
Police driver is visibly startled (starts) and begins to reach for his weapon
Police passenger sees this and assumes, due to the proximity of the sound and the physical reaction of his partner that partner has been shot by the approaching person.
Police passenger quickly draws and shoots woman.

The shooter has taken the fifth so we will likely not hear his side of the story. All rests on what the driver reports.
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Last edited by alfaniner; 19th July 2017 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:31 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I assumed the cop who fired the shot was the inexperienced one. They both had less than two years experience.
I hope at a minimum the shooter has no more. Though I would prefer a really long prison term for the thug!!!!!
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:36 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
With the more relaxed Fireworks regulations, it has become a two week Siege at Khe Sanh. I specifically counted 3 firework reports at my lake in the last 3 weeks that I thought were gunshots.

They were close, and startling. Sounded like 30-06 rifle fire.
A woman called about a sexual assault.

There is a woman standing in the alley, apparently waiting for the police, in her pajamas.

Fireworks go off.

Shoot the woman immediately.

Why would you connect the sounds to the woman standing outside in her pajamas, when you are responding to a woman calling about a sexual assault?

Isn't it likely that the woman, outside in her PJ's, is the one who called regarding the sexual assault?
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:37 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Then literally what on earth does?
Actually, as soon as they leave the station the cameras should be on and officers should be removed from the force for starters if they are turned off at any time while they are away from the station - especially if they are involved with a suspect or other person during that time!!!
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:37 AM   #245
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I guess if she had called about a shooting, they'd have opened up on her as soon as they turned the corner and saw a target...
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:38 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
After all these years on this forum, it's the sheer matter-of-factness of statements like this that still gets me. Only Americans could ever say stuff like this and think it normal. No other western culture that I am aware of has police shooting (unarmed) citizens in this ad hoc and gung-ho way, and I still find it astonishing that people here can think it defensible.
I bes American and do not find it defensible.
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:47 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
With the more relaxed Fireworks regulations, it has become a two week Siege at Khe Sanh. I specifically counted 3 firework reports at my lake in the last 3 weeks that I thought were gunshots.

They were close, and startling. Sounded like 30-06 rifle fire.
Who was firing 30-o6 rifles at Khe Sanh?????????
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Old 19th July 2017, 05:50 AM   #248
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I won't find it defensible until we know more.

What if the driver yelled "GUN!" right as the firework goes off?

What if she did report gunfire in the 911 call?

The shooting cop is going to be in front of a jury, who will be instructed that police officers are in high stress, dangerous situations, and they have to look at the evidence with that in mind. Would an officer rightly feel in danger for his life if his partner yelled 'Gun' and a firework went off within a block of his car?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
After all these years on this forum, it's the sheer matter-of-factness of statements like this that still gets me. Only Americans could ever say stuff like this and think it normal. No other western culture that I am aware of has police shooting (unarmed) citizens in this ad hoc and gung-ho way, and I still find it astonishing that people here can think it defensible.
Right, here in America, you are innocent until proven guilty, we've heard one post action radio chatter, and you want him to be guilty.
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Old 19th July 2017, 06:54 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The media isn't advertising the fact that the officer in question is an Islamic monkey who had no right to be in our country.
So how did you determine that this man had no right to be in the country?

Quote:
That might cause racism or prejudice or inappropriate hate thoughts.
Like the hateful ones in your arguments?
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:01 AM   #250
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My analysis of each bit of information as it comes out (assuming it's accurate), in no way diminishes my feelings for the woman and her family. But I like to look at things from all perspectives.

She was shot in the abdomen. Reports say he shot through the door but I also saw reported that he shot through the driver's side window, which sounds more logical (as far as logic applies in this situation). If she was approaching on a downward slope, the officer may not have been able to see the upper part of her body, heard what he thought was a shot, saw his partner jerk, and reacted.
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:21 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My analysis of each bit of information as it comes out (assuming it's accurate), in no way diminishes my feelings for the woman and her family. But I like to look at things from all perspectives.

She was shot in the abdomen. Reports say he shot through the door but I also saw reported that he shot through the driver's side window, which sounds more logical (as far as logic applies in this situation). If she was approaching on a downward slope, the officer may not have been able to see the upper part of her body, heard what he thought was a shot, saw his partner jerk, and reacted.
Would he be able to get his gun out of its holster and aimed and fired in such a short time that he wouldn't have realised there was no threat?
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:27 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would he be able to get his gun out of its holster and aimed and fired in such a short time that he wouldn't have realised there was no threat?
That's one of the many questions that need to be answered. I don't know.
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:28 AM   #253
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Local radio this morning was reporting that Noor's partner had made a statement that Noor fired on Ruszczyk as she was approaching the squad car after Noor was startled by a loud noise.
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Old 19th July 2017, 07:57 AM   #254
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She was in pajamas which may not have pockets. With cellphone in hand in a dark alley, directly approaching immediately after a loud bang... this is a shooter with gun in hand. Noor can draw his weapon and fire in less than three seconds. It's how you stay alive when someone is gunning for you.

He may not have noticed that it was a woman in pajamas with a phone. It was a person shooting a gun coming right at them.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:08 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was in pajamas which may not have pockets. With cellphone in hand in a dark alley, directly approaching immediately after a loud bang... this is a shooter with gun in hand. Noor can draw his weapon and fire in less than three seconds. It's how you stay alive when someone is gunning for you.

He may not have noticed that it was a woman in pajamas with a phone. It was a person shooting a gun coming right at them.

Are you defending this atrocity? Maybe cops should figure out what's happening before they start killing people. An object in anyone's hand is far more likely to be a phone than a gun. And if they're too scared to do that, they shouldn't have guns and badges.

And all of the reports say she was actually speaking to the driver-cop at his door when the passenger-cop opened fire. Your scenario conflicts with the facts as reported.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:09 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was in pajamas which may not have pockets. With cellphone in hand in a dark alley, directly approaching immediately after a loud bang... this is a shooter with gun in hand. Noor can draw his weapon and fire in less than three seconds. It's how you stay alive when someone is gunning for you.

He may not have noticed that it was a woman in pajamas with a phone. It was a person shooting a gun coming right at them.
If so, where does this leave the "Do exactly what the police say and then you won't get shot" argument? Does it now have to be changed to "Don't look like you might possibly be a threat to the police"? It seems simpler just never to call them in the first place, if you can walk over to talk to them when they arrive, get shot dead, and have people argue that the police acted correctly.

Dave
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:10 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Actually, as soon as they leave the station the cameras should be on and officers should be removed from the force for starters if they are turned off at any time while they are away from the station - especially if they are involved with a suspect or other person during that time!!!
Agreed. What is this nonsense about turning them on, or having them automatically turn on when a gun is unholstered? They should always be on, as should dash cams. It looks like battery life on many of these cameras is over 12 hours. Some are as low as 2 1/2 hours - OK, don't buy those or plug in and recharge whenever in the car.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:12 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The shooting cop is going to be in front of a jury, who will be instructed that police officers...
No Grand Jury and maybe no charges...

Originally Posted by CNN
The department's BCA investigation is expected to last two to four months, said Chuck Laszewski, a spokesman for the Hennepin County attorney's office.

Once that happens, county attorney Mike Freeman -- not a grand jury -- will decide whether either of the two officers involved should be charged in Ruszczyk's death...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/us/min...ice/index.html
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:21 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Are you defending this atrocity? Maybe cops should figure out what's happening before they start killing people.
That is crazy anti police talk there.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:26 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
An object in anyone's hand is far more likely to be a phone than a gun.
Under normal circumstances, yes. As a cop responding to a call, chances are much, much higher that it is not.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:31 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I have cousins in the police, and they're distinctly not the lefty-liberal side of the family. The types of people who choose to become police officers are probably much the same all over the world. The consequences may be more severe in a society which to other countries looks a bit like a video game.
Which is why the police here know they are under no obligation or illusion that they are helpful. To quote the sainted Reagan "The most terrifying words in the english language are "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"". They work for the government and they know anyone should be terrified of them trying to help. Simple basic politics, they know no one would expect them to be helpful and everyone should be terrified of them getting involved.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:34 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Who was firing 30-o6 rifles at Khe Sanh?????????
Marines mostly.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...tary-model-70/

But the reference to Khe Sahn was more in relation to the sheer amount of ordinance being fired in the week surrounding July 4th.
In other words, the three rounds that sounded like a 30-06, were not the reason I referenced Khe Sanh
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:36 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Under normal circumstances, yes. As a cop responding to a call, chances are much, much higher that it is not.

You mean the probability is changed?

or that it's more likely to be a gun than a phone under these circumstances?


The former I can take at face value. The latter would require evidencing.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:45 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If so, where does this leave the "Do exactly what the police say and then you won't get shot" argument? Does it now have to be changed to "Don't look like you might possibly be a threat to the police"? It seems simpler just never to call them in the first place, if you can walk over to talk to them when they arrive, get shot dead, and have people argue that the police acted correctly.

Dave
Agreed. Since these very same cops might be responding to a call in my neighborhood and people like to randomly blow off fireworks around here on a summer eve I am tempted to not call the cops for fear it might endanger me.

I don't buy the shoot first and ask questions because cops have been trained to fear everything and act immediately with gunfire crap. We can and should do better than train our police to act with their guns instead of their heads.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:48 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Are you defending this atrocity?
I can't defend killing an unarmed woman in pajamas. Who could? It's just a possible explanation of how it happened. A "wrong place, wrong time" thing which was terribly unfortunate. The world presents situations of horrible "perfect storms". Cops are sometimes the ones who are killed in wrong-place-wrong-time-perfect-storms.


Quote:
Maybe cops should figure out what's happening before they start killing people. An object in anyone's hand is far more likely to be a phone than a gun. And if they're too scared to do that, they shouldn't have guns and badges.
He may have thought that the call was legit and this is the rapist and he is now shooting.

Quote:
And all of the reports say she was actually speaking to the driver-cop at his door when the passenger-cop opened fire. Your scenario conflicts with the facts as reported.
No. That stuff is now superseded by an official statement from the driver cop. It seems certain that there was no conversation and she was shot immediately before her innocence was (or could be) established.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:55 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. That stuff is now superseded by an official statement from the driver cop. It seems certain that there was no conversation and she was shot immediately before her innocence was (or could be) established.

i - You don't think there would be any cause to question the veracity of the statement?

ii - The standard for being legitimately shot is 'not yet established to be innocent'?
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:04 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
i - You don't think there would be any cause to question the veracity of the statement?
What are you supposed to do when a witness who was only a foot away tells you what happened? Of course investigators want and need statements from the shooter cop too. They are also actively seeking a young man on a bicycle who witnessed at least some of what happened (he is said to have watched the CPR attempt and maybe he saw everything).

Quote:
ii - The standard for being legitimately shot is 'not yet established to be innocent'?
Of course not, but you already know that and you know that I know that. Is this a troll game going on here?
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:06 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
i - You don't think there would be any cause to question the veracity of the statement?

ii - The standard for being legitimately shot is 'not yet established to be innocent'?
#1 - What other witness has come forward? Was it someone looking out a window? Or someone who came out after and saw how close she was to the car?

Did you just make #2 up? Parcher didn't say that. Where does he say 'not yet established to be innocent' = The Standard for Being Legitimately shot

Certainly a cop arriving on the scene would assess the situation, until subjects can be eliminated as a threat, they could still be a threat. Imagine the driver yelling at her to stay back, and she comes toward them in the dark, with a phone out, and a firework goes off nearby, this becomes a completely different scenario.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:08 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
He may have thought that the call was legit and this is the rapist and he is now shooting.
He might have thought that an attractive blonde woman in pyjamas was a rapist? Seriously?

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Old 19th July 2017, 09:10 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What are you supposed to do when a witness who was only a foot away tells you what happened?
Assess that testimony critically, taking into account that he is not an impartial witness but the partner of the police officer who has just shot an innocent woman dead.

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Old 19th July 2017, 09:10 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What are you supposed to do when a witness who was only a foot away tells you what happened?

Ask if they have anything to gain by lying. I'm afraid the testimony of US LEO's, when compared to actual video footage of the incidents that they didn't know existed, has caused me to have trouble believing the sworn statement of a LEO in instances like these.



Quote:
Of course investigators want and need statements from the shooter cop too. They are also actively seeking a young man on a bicycle who witnessed at least some of what happened (he is said to have watched the CPR attempt and maybe he saw everything).


Of course not, but you already know that and you know that I know that. Is this a troll game going on here?

No, no game. Just wondering what you mean by this:

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It seems certain that there was no conversation and she was shot immediately before her innocence was (or could be) established.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:39 AM   #272
SteveL
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You mean the probability is changed?

or that it's more likely to be a gun than a phone under these circumstances?


The former I can take at face value. The latter would require evidencing.
Yes, especially when you consider what we're telling people to do -
Quote:
Don't Hang Up!

If you do have to call 911 in an emergency, be sure to stay on the phone. Do not hang up until the 911 operator tells you it's OK to do so. That way, you can be sure that the operator has all the information to get help to you fast!
source - http://kidshealth.org/en/kids/911.html#

Last edited by SteveL; 19th July 2017 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:49 AM   #273
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
He might have thought that an attractive blonde woman in pyjamas was a rapist? Seriously?
Alley at night. All cop car lights are off. He may not have realized that it was a woman until after he shot her.

Bang! (the fireworks). Then a sudden human figure coming close with something in hand. This cop made the decision to immediately aim and fire on that person.

Damn horrible mistake.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:01 AM   #274
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Ask if they have anything to gain by lying. I'm afraid the testimony of US LEO's, when compared to actual video footage of the incidents that they didn't know existed, has caused me to have trouble believing the sworn statement of a LEO in instances like these.
His statement isn't one which is a bold lie meant to protect his partner. He basically explains that the shooting was instantaneous of an unarmed person.

The thing is, we can imagine bold lies which he isn't telling. "We heard a loud bang. Then all of a sudden this woman pops out and screams 'I'm going to kill you now!' with an object in her outstretched hand. My partner then used lethal force as we are trained to do."

He didn't tell that lie or others like it. He explains that she presented no observable threat and was shot. This is a lie? Maybe it is, I don't know.


Quote:
No, no game. Just wondering what you mean by this:
It's me telling you what the cop said in testimony.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:01 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She was in pajamas which may not have pockets. With cellphone in hand in a dark alley, directly approaching immediately after a loud bang... this is a shooter with gun in hand. Noor can draw his weapon and fire in less than three seconds. It's how you stay alive when someone is gunning for you.

He may not have noticed that it was a woman in pajamas with a phone. It was a person shooting a gun coming right at them.
My understanding is that it's not a dark alley or even a traditional small alley. It's a well lit alley where the lines of houses on either side have their garages and storage buildings open to.

West 51st between Washburn and Xerxes.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+...!4d-93.3087029

Looks like a common arrangement in the area to have that "alley" for garages and such.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:06 AM   #276
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
My understanding is that it's not a dark alley or even a traditional small alley. It's a well lit alley where the lines of houses on either side have their garages and storage buildings open to.
Yes, I'm familiar with such alleys. I saw pictures of this alley earlier in the thread (or in some article). I don't know that it was dark... I shouldn't have said that. It might even have municipal street lights.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:08 AM   #277
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There are no driveways on the main streets in the area. People have their garages open to the "alley" and they drive in and out via the alley. To park in front of a house, you'd need to park on the street.

The alley has street lights and is likely well used by neighborhood vehicles.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:11 AM   #278
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You can look down both ends of the alleys via google maps, and you can see street lighting.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:13 AM   #279
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What did dispatch tell the officers?

Did dispatch tell them that the complainant was female and waiting in the alley?

They typically do describe the complainant for a call.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:17 AM   #280
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The human mind has a tendency to fill in gaps when/where circumstances make details difficult to observe. Any person hearing loud explosions and seeing a person moving quickly toward them with something in their hand, might possibly conclude the item to be a gun and assume they are being shot at.

Taking into account this being the night time, possible nature of the call, statements from the driver, etc. I could see how it would happen. The fact that it was a blonde woman shouldn't really be taken into account should it? We can't have police factoring in race/gender when conducting personal risk assessment in their duties.

I haven't seen any evidence that this was anything other than a tragic accident.
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