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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 19th July 2017, 12:53 PM   #321
Pterodactyl
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
So, if I, Joe Citizen, am out walking, and hear a loud bang (in JULY, in the UNITED STATES), then I can shoot someone walking towards me?

Because I have a tiny suspicion that us 'regular civilians' aren't going to avoid prison for such a thing.

Well, the police aren't "out walking" they're responding to the scene of a reported violent crime. Also they're acting in an official capacity, which carries inherent risk, not just minding their own business.

So it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

I'm not saying the cop definitely was NOT negligent here, just that based on the information we have, it appears to have been a non-malicious tragic mistake.

Criminally negligent?
A jury will decide that most likely.
Does putting the cop in jail who made a mistake bring this woman back to life?
No. Does he deserve "punishment" for it? Up to a jury.
Most likely, as with Mr. Castille, her family will be compensated to some extent, that will also not replace what has been lost.
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Old 19th July 2017, 12:57 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This is the latest report from the local paper. That is what the cops are claiming now: "Loud noise, open fire."
http://www.startribune.com/attorney-...ond/435415343/

And those factors certainly have to be considered. Two cops who aggressively take down a belligerent drunk should not need to behave the same way toward an elderly woman or a small child. Someone who doesn't present an immediate, obvious, indisputable threat should not be killed on the spot.
I agree, was just attempting to be snarky at the supposition that a blonde white woman (who they thought had a gun) should not be considered dangerous. The implication being that ... what dark complected brunettes are more dangerous?
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:02 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'm not trying to explain away anything.

As you just pointed out, he misidentified the threat.

That's the problem.

Trying to dream up excuses to absolve the cop of responsibility for doing so doesn't change that simple fact.

Why do you believe it is so unreasonable to expect cops to accurately identify the threat before they start blasting away?
Where have I dreamed up excuses or absolved anyone of responsibility?

We agree the threat was misidentified. The reasonable conversation should be about what factors led to that, rather than ignoring said factors for the knee-jerk satisfaction of castigating police in general; a pointless exercise.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:03 PM   #324
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Did the police ever locate the woman who was having sex/being raped behind the house that instigated this event?
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:04 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What is the purpose of this stupid, irrelevant comment.

It obviously has nothing to do with what I think is best.

It is what happened.

And what some people seem to be proposing as a defense for the indefensible.
Most of the posters are speculating and chatting about the incident and wondering out loud the thought process that caused, her untimely death.

It's not necessary to be on the defence or attack to chat about news items.

You are convinced you already know what happened, I was using humour to counter sarcasm, bias and perhaps create some more dialogue about the events.

Yes of course the end result (a lead projectile entered her abdomen and caused her to die) is factual ... almost nothing else surrounding the issue is as plain and simple ...

Debating and speculating the reasons and thought process behind her unfortunate death can be interesting to discuss for most members posting, that's what we are doing here.

Hope that answers your (and yes I realize, possibly rhetorical) question.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:06 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
That sounds most logical from a policy angle, say with a 1 or 2 hour loop if memory was short?

.. BUT they'd probably have to carry around a 4 pound battery to make them last a 12 hour shift .. charging on the go would make it more likely they got left in the car in an emergency or ripped off their catch if it was a wire charger etc.

I think we WILL see your idea implemented as (battery and other) technology advances of course, maybe even a remote upload (from wifi in the cruiser?) so recordings cannot be erased
You seem to have a very outdated view of the current level of camera and battery technology.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 19th July 2017 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:08 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
That was me, and yes to the seriously part.

Cripes, haven't you guys ever dealt with the insane? at all? Not even an insane pan handler? They do insane stuff, like commit suicide. They get shot, justifiably, quite regularly for doing insane stuff around cops.

I would have thunk an unbiased newsman would have interviewed the boyfriend to see what he meant by "passionate". But that would be "blaming the victim" if she was crazy, so not done in mainstream media.
OK ... I should have sorted thru the thread

.. but yes I agreed just another possibility, I have shop downtown in small city and there are lots of really crazy people in here every week

I often make excuses not to serve them to avoid any future problems, with them.

This is indicative of the same sort of mindset which gets innocent people shot down like mad dogs in the first place.

The word "passionate" is used by a confused and grieving acquaintance of the victim in a newspaper interview on the scene, and almost instantly the usual crowd of cop groupies start spinning it into "crazy" and "insane", and barfing up irrelevant anecdotes of dubious provenance in a transparent and pitiful effort to try and whitewash the obvious incompetence that led to this tragedy.


What is "insane" is that a woman in her pajamas got gunned down behind her own home by the very police officers she had called to for help.

What is "crazy" is trying to defend the cop by spinning wild, utterly unfounded conjectures about the victim.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:12 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I agree, was just attempting to be snarky at the supposition that a blonde white woman (who they thought had a gun) should not be considered dangerous.
.....
Did they really think that at the moment? Or is that the story they concocted after thinking about it a couple days? I suspect at the moment it was something like "bang, shoot, oh s---, now what?"
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:14 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Well, the police aren't "out walking" they're responding to the scene of a reported violent crime. Also they're acting in an official capacity, which carries inherent risk, not just minding their own business.

So it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
As has been noted often, that risk is not that high, even in the US. And as has also been noted, they are supposed to be the trained professional on the scene to reduce the risk for the community. They have a responsibility.

Quote:
I'm not saying the cop definitely was NOT negligent here,
I learned early on that when I am using double negatives others will not read my words favorably. See if you can rewrite the above and still be happy with it.

Quote:
just that based on the information we have, it appears to have been a non-malicious tragic mistake.
I don't think malice is being claimed. The word mistake, like the word misfire, is devoid of responsibility and usually not used by professionals who carry guns. There is a responsible party. The cop and the city who trained the cop and gave him a gun both share in that responsibility.

Quote:
Criminally negligent?
A jury will decide that most likely.
If we can bear to put an innocent cop on trial, that is./Bluelivesmatter

Quote:
Does putting the cop in jail who made a mistake bring this woman back to life?
No. Does he deserve "punishment" for it? Up to a jury.
That reasoning works for every criminal currently in jail. Why is it only applied to cops and celebrities? When was the last time you heard someone applying this logic to an inner city kid caught dealing drugs?

Quote:
Most likely, as with Mr. Castille, her family will be compensated to some extent, that will also not replace what has been lost.
Of course, that is the least we can do as a society. The absolute least. And it is shamefully little.
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Last edited by Dr. Keith; 19th July 2017 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:15 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
Did the police ever locate the woman who was having sex/being raped behind the house that instigated this event?
No. Everything I've read suggests that the investigation abruptly ended when Justine was shot. One cop says on the radio, "No suspects at large". Or something like that.

There may have been an assault or rape or domestic disturbance - we just don't know and authorities aren't speaking of that.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:17 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You seem to have a very outdated view of the current level of camera and battery technology.
Some currently used body cams only have a one hour battery life ... I see there are also some more recent models with 12 hours, but how long ago were they available?

How often do we expect police agencies to retool the cameras? it MILLIONS of dollars per each police agency.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:24 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
How often do we expect police agencies to retool the cameras?
They should use current technology. just like they do for their guns and cars and radios, etc.

Quote:
it MILLIONS of dollars per each police agency.
Really, each of the 17,000 police agencies, even those with just a few officers, will have to spend millions of dollars to stay current with their cameras. I call BS. I bet it is millions for large forces, but then they spend at least that much on oil changes.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:25 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. Everything I've read suggests that the investigation abruptly ended when Justine was shot. One cop says on the radio, "No suspects at large". Or something like that.

There may have been an assault or rape or domestic disturbance - we just don't know and authorities aren't speaking of that.
If there was an attacker, I suspect he ran as soon as he heard sirens. If it was a domestic, I suspect they both took off as soon as they heard sirens. If there was a victim, I suspect she ran as soon as she heard shooting. She's not gonna come out of the alley and say "Hey, talk to me!" after she saw them shoot somebody. We may never find out how this started, unless one of the neighbors also heard suspicious sounds.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:29 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
IMHO you have it wrong. It is the general attitude of the civilian population towards the police that has been growing sour. I don't think police have changed all that much.

I'll spare you a long list of cites and quotations. Just Google the phrase "militarization of police" and learn a little about how many reputable authorities disagree with your assessment.

Quote:
If they have it may be a response to the civilian attitude especially in high crime areas. If the trend continues, I believe police interaction with the public will worsen as you will not get the best and the brightest going forward.

We don't have to worry about that anyway. The police departments already weed those out for us. The best and the brightest are not deemed to be the most promising material for cops.

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Who the hell would want to become a cop in this climate if you have other options? Risk going to prison with all the thugs that hate me, for a single mistake, nah I think I'll just go into heating and air conditioning.

I think it is pretty much the same sort of people who wanted to be cops before.

Sadly, that may not be the best qualification.

This isn't all that recent. I've been watching it for many years.

Over three decades ago I watched a wannabe SWAT team armed with shotguns burst into a family pub in a quiet residential neighborhood because they suspected that there was a high school kid known for dealing pot in there. (Turned out they had been tracking the guy's brother by mistake. They arrested him anyway, of course.)

Most of them were armed with weapons which were incapable of reliably singling out an individual target at over a dozen feet. But here they were, in a pub crowded with families at the local dart league night. (I was there with my wife and infant son.)

There's nothing particularly new about this. What is new might be that they are gradually being called to account for it.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 19th July 2017 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:32 PM   #335
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How much of the driver's interview was posted? About the action leading up to the discharge?
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:37 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I'll spare you a long list of cites and quotations. Just Google the phrase "militarization of police" and learn a little about how many reputable authorities disagree with your assessment.
.....
Re-posting my links from above:
https://newrepublic.com/article/1416...ior-philosophy
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...ilitarization/

And this attitude pervades modern cop training, which often starts with hiring a returning combat veteran.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:42 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Some currently used body cams only have a one hour battery life ... I see there are also some more recent models with 12 hours, but how long ago were they available?

How often do we expect police agencies to retool the cameras? it MILLIONS of dollars per each police agency.
You think? London's Metropolitan Police just rolled out 22,000 cameras for the entire force of over 32,000 officers for just under 10 million - a unit cost of around 450 each. I see that Minneapolis has only 800 officers, so that would equate to around 550 cameras costing 250,000 - about $325,000.

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Old 19th July 2017, 01:44 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Did they really think that at the moment? Or is that the story they concocted after thinking about it a couple days? I suspect at the moment it was something like "bang, shoot, oh s---, now what?"
That sounds like what might have happened to me too ... I'd wager the officer had his gun drawn too (figuring that's how he got a shot off so fast.)

It's not easy to get your gun out seated, as many people know it's not a Dime Store Western quick draw holster ... you have to push down rock the gun back hit a button THEN draw your pistol (for an example of retention type holsters)
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:45 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If there was an attacker, I suspect he ran as soon as he heard sirens. If it was a domestic, I suspect they both took off as soon as they heard sirens. If there was a victim, I suspect she ran as soon as she heard shooting. She's not gonna come out of the alley and say "Hey, talk to me!" after she saw them shoot somebody. We may never find out how this started, unless one of the neighbors also heard suspicious sounds.
It's unlikely that a siren was used on approach. For calls like this, they will have great difficulty catching a perpetrator if they have advance notice that police are coming and are nearby. It may also be the reason why Justine called twice. She won't know they are there and looking for a bad guy unless she sees their squad car with her eyes.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:47 PM   #340
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Do we know what dispatch said to the officers when they sent them on the call?
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:49 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Can you link to that? The official police statement (which I quoted upthread) said it was through the open window.
I've seen so many different (local) reports that I can't separate them in my mind. It was from a single source, hence my hedging for the veracity of the point. If I encounter it again I'll save the link.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:49 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
How much of the driver's interview was posted? About the action leading up to the discharge?
It's not an interview. The driver gave a statement. He didn't have to but he did.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:53 PM   #343
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/...by-police/index.html
The shooter's partner is talking.
Quote:
As they drove down the alley in their police car, Harrity heard a loud sound that startled him, the officer told state investigators.

That's when Ruszczyk approached Harrity's driver's side window. Noor, sitting in the passenger seat, fired his gun and shot Ruszczyk through the driver's side window, Harrity told investigators.
Ordinarily I'd say the shooter is screwed now, but this is Minnesota we're talking about. A jury there just acquitted a police officer who failed to avoid shooting a person with a concealed pistol even though he wasn't reaching for it.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:53 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Do we know what dispatch said to the officers when they sent them on the call?
I haven't seen a transcript. We may have seen bits and pieces. Something about a woman screaming. It may have been as simple as "report of woman screaming behind xxx address".
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:57 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I've seen so many different (local) reports that I can't separate them in my mind. It was from a single source, hence my hedging for the veracity of the point. If I encounter it again I'll save the link.
Be careful with single sources. Reporters and desk jockeys sometimes screw up.

BBC News is now reporting that Justine pounded on the cop car door. They even cite a local news station. But I couldn't find that bit anywhere on that news site. Looks like BBC may have just invented it.
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Old 19th July 2017, 01:59 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
<snip>

And again your sarcasm is misplaced, and not helping anything ... no-one is trying to say it was great police work.

Speaking of sarcasm ...

... Post #300.

Is it not misplaced when you do it?
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:02 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
They should use current technology. just like they do for their guns and cars and radios, etc.

Really, each of the 17,000 police agencies, even those with just a few officers, will have to spend millions of dollars to stay current with their cameras. I call BS. I bet it is millions for large forces, but then they spend at least that much on oil changes.
I was going for larger forces too .. but the small forces have small budgets so it makes little difference.

Vehicles are replaced out of necessity as they wear out (many forces have 5 year old cruisers) certainly 3 years is the least they'd keep their active vehicles, vehicle technology? I'm not sure that's a factor, vehicle technology hasn't changed drastically far as police use goes.

And firearm technology no ... the pistols they carry now different only slightly from pistols made in 100 years ago.

So by suggesting they use 'current technology' cameras same as cars and pistols? That'd mean REALLY outdated stuff

On the other hand your point to use current technology cameras is not valid, they would have to upgrade yearly to keep up perhaps even every 6 moths.

.. IF the cameras were free? of course that'd be the way to go .. the fact is they cost millions to replace and every dollar come out of our taxes.

My cost estimate was local ... Toronto Police for example (about 5000 camera wearing officers) expects to spent 8 million dollars EVERY year, over the next TEN years, complying with mandated body cams.

Small police forces can actually be expected to pay MORE per capita out of their budgets for body cams as there's no volume discount.

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Old 19th July 2017, 02:05 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Speaking of sarcasm ...

... Post #300.

Is it not misplaced when you do it?
Ummm .. That IS the post we are talking about ... you just can't use the same post, to complain about same post, you are complaining about.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:09 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You think? London's Metropolitan Police just rolled out 22,000 cameras for the entire force of over 32,000 officers for just under 10 million - a unit cost of around 450 each. I see that Minneapolis has only 800 officers, so that would equate to around 550 cameras costing 250,000 - about $325,000.
Well you should have bid on the job .. they approved 4 MILLION dollars for the cameras last March

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Old 19th July 2017, 02:13 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/...by-police/index.html
The shooter's partner is talking.


Ordinarily I'd say the shooter is screwed now, but this is Minnesota we're talking about. A jury there just acquitted a police officer who failed to avoid shooting a person with a concealed pistol even though he wasn't reaching for it.
There won't be a jury unless county attorney Mike Freeman decides to charge. That was already posted in the thread.

Also the statement from the driver was already posted. Are you paying attention?
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Most of the posters are speculating and chatting about the incident and wondering out loud the thought process that caused, her untimely death.

It's not necessary to be on the defence or attack to chat about news items.

You are convinced you already know what happened, I was using humour to counter sarcasm, bias and perhaps create some more dialogue about the events.

Yes of course the end result (a lead projectile entered her abdomen and caused her to die) is factual ... almost nothing else surrounding the issue is as plain and simple ...

Debating and speculating the reasons and thought process behind her unfortunate death can be interesting to discuss for most members posting, that's what we are doing here.

Hope that answers your (and yes I realize, possibly rhetorical) question.

Why is it that so much of this speculation seems to be of the sort intent on finding ways to excuse or justify the cops' actions?

I'm convinced I know what has been reported by the police as having happened. Speculation on why it happened is an entirely different matter, and I have not at any point offered any reason for the claim to be made that I am convinced I know that.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:19 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
And firearm technology no ... the pistols they carry now different only slightly from pistols made in 100 years ago.
I believe that in 1917, police were using revolvers. Now they use semi-autos. The difference is more than slight. But let's not derail the thread on this detail.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:20 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Well you should have bid on the job .. they approved 4 MILLION dollars for the cameras last March
So they're financially inept, as well. Perhaps even more so considering that tech price are usually significantly cheaper in the States than in the UK.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:20 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There won't be a jury unless county attorney Mike Freeman decides to charge. That was already posted in the thread.

Also the statement from the driver was already posted. Are you paying attention?
That was the lawyer's statement from the driver, right? Not a formal police interview.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:21 PM   #355
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I would imagine the shooter or 'non-driver officer' has been advised by his union rep, and the legal department, to not say anything (A wise decision everyone should follow when dealing with a possible court case) ... if there's a trial he can decide then if his testimony will help his case.

I was hoping a security cam might have caught the incident ... but I think we would have heard about it by now if there was any recoding.
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:22 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
My cost estimate was local ... Toronto Police for example (about 5000 camera wearing officers) expects to spent 8 million dollars EVERY year, over the next TEN years, complying with mandated body cams.
Such contracts are typically for storing and validating all of the video to comply with evidence collection regulations. Without a breakdown of how much of that was for the hardware on the cop your point is moot. Really, the poster was talking solely about battery life, so let's focus on batteries. Is Toronto relying on 1-2 hour battery life in their system?
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:24 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I believe that in 1917, police were using revolvers. Now they use semi-autos. The difference is more than slight. But let's not derail the thread on this detail.
Agreed, but that totally supports my idea, that police agencies do not use the latest technology ... auto pistols were available for years in 1917
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:24 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
BBC News is now reporting that Justine pounded on the cop car door. They even cite a local news station. But I couldn't find that bit anywhere on that news site. Looks like BBC may have just invented it.
Why on Earth would they do that?
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:26 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Such contracts are typically for storing and validating all of the video to comply with evidence collection regulations. Without a breakdown of how much of that was for the hardware on the cop your point is moot. Really, the poster was talking solely about battery life, so let's focus on batteries. Is Toronto relying on 1-2 hour battery life in their system?
No, but close ... 5 hours when brand new ... drifting to 3 hours before worn batteries are replaced
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Old 19th July 2017, 02:48 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Ummm .. That IS the post we are talking about ... you just can't use the same post, to complain about same post, you are complaining about.

Try again.

In your post (Post #320 you were deploring (quoted, in fact) my sarcasm. You quoted Post #196. (Which I see you have decided to edit out of your post.)

You seemed to have a sudden revelation about the use of sarcasm.

Mine, at any rate.
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
<snip>

And again your sarcasm is misplaced,

<snip>
You didn't seem to find any similar fault with your own.


In my post (Post #346) I was referring to your own, immediately subsequent sarcasm. Post #300. (Which I cited.)


Would it help if I quoted the relevant posts in full and in order, or is this enough to refresh your memory?
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