ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

Reply
Old 12th June 2019, 12:42 PM   #2961
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,196
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Would you argue that a transwoman in a society that practiced FGM or footbinding or forced marriage should undergo those things because it would reinforce her femaleness?
How is female genital mutilation supposed to work if you don't have female genitals? And transwomen who undergo transition surgery do in fact mutilate their genitals, to a much more radical extent even than FGM.

But the question itself seems premised on the acceptance of those practices for ciswomen. If one doesn't accept them for ciswomen, then one could reject them for transwomen irrespective of one's acceptance of transwomen themselves.

Quote:
If we had unisex bathrooms then the choice of bathrooms wouldn't exist, and therefore wouldn't be required to make anybody feel any sex at all. My compromise of having an uncategorized bathroom available to anyone allows a non-sexual choice. Using it wouldn't boost a transwoman's womanliness, true, but neither would it detract from it. A neutral outcome, what could be a better compromise?
Better for whom? It's not better for building owners who have to pay for reconstruction to create that third space.

This isn't a scenario where everyone can end up satisfied.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:50 PM   #2962
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 15,453
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Twice than what? We've separated bathrooms since forever.

And sometimes, we've separated them into more than just the common two. And some very small places only have a single restroom with no gender separation, intended for single-person occupancy.

Incidentally, many places in the US already have "family" restrooms which are non-gender-specific, intended primarily for parents and very young children. So yes, there are instances where we, in contemporary society, provide three separate bathroom facilities. Don't see how the cost isn't justified.

Quote:
Yes. Any additional cost has to be justified. This isn't some ad hoc excuse. We've always done that.

Who said anything about it being unacceptable? I'm saying that the cost might be prohibitive. I don't think you could make it happen across the board.

Funny, we had no problem spending extra on more-than-two-types bathrooms when it was needed to keep those darkies separated from good white folks.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:52 PM   #2963
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If we had unisex bathrooms then the choice of bathrooms wouldn't exist, and therefore wouldn't be required to make anybody feel any sex at all. My compromise of having an uncategorized bathroom available to anyone allows a non-sexual choice. Using it wouldn't boost a transwoman's womanliness, true, but neither would it detract from it. A neutral outcome, what could be a better compromise?
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Better for whom?
TM's proposed compromise benefits several groups of people in addition to those who choose to transition. Single dads with young daughters, single moms with young sons, husbands with physically disabled or cognitively declining wives (and vice-versa), people who are read as gender-ambiguous (for any reason), people who object to gendering themselves, anyone likely to be challenged when entering the restroom which matches their sex or gender.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/

Last edited by d4m10n; 12th June 2019 at 12:54 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:53 PM   #2964
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,117
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
There is no need to fight for access to other people's attention.
Of course there is. It is not a free resource. People even do it here. I mean, they are doing it here. (Including you)
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 12:57 PM   #2965
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,117
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Three bathrooms seems a reasonable compromise to me. One for uptight women, one for uptight men, and one for people who don't give a **** except for a literal one which is the point of a bathroom to begin with.
Three bathrooms is complete defeat for transwomen who want to use a female only bathroom so that's out.

It is a victory for women who want to preserve their segregated bathrooms.

So it isn't a compromise. And anyway compromise is not possible with mutually exclusive competing objectives, the Venn diagram does not have an intersection.

Did you see what I did there by the way? It was very quick you may have missed it.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:10 PM   #2966
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Would you argue that a transwoman in a society that practiced FGM or footbinding or forced marriage should undergo those things because it would reinforce her femaleness?
I might.

To be honest, I'm dubious about the premise that mutilation is good treatment. But an otherwise-healthy adult making informed choices about their body under the guidance of a competent mental health practitioner?

I think forced marriage would probably be a moot point. The kinds of societies that have that practice don't seem like the kind of societies interested in forcing a dude who thinks he's a chick into marriage with another dude. Especially if we're talking about adults making informed decisions. Those kinds of societies mostly seem interested in forced marriages of prepubescent girls. Far from me having to counsel against it, the transwoman would be hard pressed to find anyone interested in playing along in the first place.

And if they did find someone interested in playing along, it wouldn't really be forced, would it? Can you imagine?

"Congratulations! We found the one guy in all of Yemen who wants to marry a former dude. So you have to marry him whether you like it or not."

"Thank Allah! Now I can finally feel like a real woman!"

As for FGM, think about what this entails. You've got a guy who, in order to feel more like a woman -
- is surgically removing his penis and testes, and then
- is surgically replacing them with a reasonable facsimile of a clitoris and vagina and so forth, and then
- is surgically removing or altering those new features;
All in the service of more closely approximating their self-image of a woman in that culture. At what point in the process is he going over the edge from treatment to harm?

And as long as we're talking about adults making informed decisions, foot binding is probably just another question of surgical treatment. Binding is most effective at a young age, while the foot is still growing. For someone whose mental health depends on closer conformity to that social goal (right or wrong), foot surgery to get their feet closer to the "bound" result might be indicated. I don't know. But since sex reassignment surgery is already on the table, I'm not going to write off other possible mutilation-as-treatment options.

Quote:
If we had unisex bathrooms then the choice of bathrooms wouldn't exist, and therefore wouldn't be required to make anybody feel any sex at all. My compromise of having an uncategorized bathroom available to anyone allows a non-sexual choice. Using it wouldn't boost a transwoman's womanliness, true, but neither would it detract from it. A neutral outcome, what could be a better compromise?
That's not a compromise. It's a non sequitur. A compromise seeks to solve a problem by satisficing between competing goods. Your third bathroom ignores the problem entirely.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th June 2019 at 01:13 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:17 PM   #2967
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
TM's proposed compromise benefits several groups of people in addition to those who choose to transition.
I don't see how TM's proposal benefits transsexuals, though. And it certainly doesn't solve Rolfe's problem of men being allowed into women's bathrooms by personal fiat.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th June 2019 at 01:18 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:19 PM   #2968
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because we have to acknowledge the elephant in the room and at least put the possibility that "I want to be a special exception to an established standard so this won't work unless not only is there a rule in a place but I'm allowed to break it" is a factor in at least some of this on the table.
I have no sympathy for anyone who seeks help to overcome discrimination in order to then exercise that discrimination themselves from the other side. Like freed slaves who become slaveowners. Hell with that. I'm not lifting a finger to help someone storm a barricade so they can reinforce it from the other side.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #2969
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This isn't a scenario where everyone can end up satisfied.
That's the nature of compromise. If the options are between everyone being less than completely satisfied, nobody being satisfied, and some being miserable I'll choose the first option.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #2970
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But the question itself seems premised on the acceptance of those practices for ciswomen. If one doesn't accept them for ciswomen, then one could reject them for transwomen irrespective of one's acceptance of transwomen themselves.
Also this.

I completely missed TM trying to steal a base here. Thanks for waving him back to first.

---

ETA: Now I'm imagining a man who goes through the genital mutilation of sex reassignment surgery, and then decides that what would make them feel even more like a woman would be to become an activist against FGM.

That would be kind of awesome.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th June 2019 at 01:22 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #2971
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see how TM's proposal benefits transsexuals, though. And it certainly doesn't solve Rolfe's problem of men being allowed into women's bathrooms by personal fiat.
Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom. So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women. All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #2972
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That's the nature of compromise. If the options are between everyone being less than completely satisfied, nobody being satisfied, and some being miserable I'll choose the first option.
The first option results in some being miserable, though. That is still the central point of the debate.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:25 PM   #2973
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Three bathrooms is complete defeat for transwomen who want to use a female only bathroom so that's out.

It is a victory for women who want to preserve their segregated bathrooms.

So it isn't a compromise. And anyway compromise is not possible with mutually exclusive competing objectives, the Venn diagram does not have an intersection.

Did you see what I did there by the way? It was very quick you may have missed it.
Do you have a superior compromise? Mine at least lets transwomen use a bathroom that doesn't constitute a statement about what sex they are.

If the pro-segregation women are so unreasonable as to demand transwomen can't use the "don't care" bathroom either then they forfeit their own segregated bathroom. They're getting their own bathroom, a "victory" as you termed it, it would be ridiculous for them to then insist on further controlling the behavior of others.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:25 PM   #2974
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see how TM's proposal benefits transsexuals, though.
People who are only partway into transition may not yet pass as the opposite sex, and are thus faced with an unpleasant choice when told to self-segregate into the socially appropriate bathroom. After reading James Shupe's story (linked somewhere upthread) it seems this problem may go beyond those who are just starting out with HRT. If you don't look like either a man or a woman, and you're likely to look and/or feel out of place in either multi-person restroom, the family/handicapped third room is an excellent way to find relief without having to negotiate through social awkwardness.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:26 PM   #2975
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The first option results in some being miserable, though. That is still the central point of the debate.
Less miserable than they'd be if they had no bathroom access at all, or had to use one opposite to the sex they feel they are.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:27 PM   #2976
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom.
Transsexuals care.
Quote:
So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women.
Predatory men also care. Your third bathroom is a complete non sequitur, in terms of these problems. And you still don't seem to understand the nature of Rolfe's problem.

Quote:
All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.
The honor system is upheld and reinforced by social norms and expectations. Rolfe's problem is that removing the norms and expectations undermines the system that she and other women are currently able to depend on to some degree.

Your third bathroom doesn't undermine the honor system, but it doesn't reinforce it either. So there's that, anyway.

Last edited by theprestige; 12th June 2019 at 01:32 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #2977
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Transsexuals care.
I'm sure you can find some vocal activists who really do, but I doubt that there is general consensus (among those diagnosed with gender dysphoria) against third restroom use, especially those who are currently gender liminal for whatever reason.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #2978
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you have a superior compromise? Mine at least lets transwomen use a bathroom that doesn't constitute a statement about what sex they are.
This is actually kind of fun. You keep finding new ways to phrase the same dismissal of the problem. So I get to keep finding new ways of rebutting your dismissal.

Here's our latest entry:

The whole point of being a transwoman is to make a statement about what sex they are.

You're not compromising on this point, you're just ignoring it.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:32 PM   #2979
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
People who are only partway into transition may not yet pass as the opposite sex, and are thus faced with an unpleasant choice when told to self-segregate into the socially appropriate bathroom. After reading James Shupe's story (linked somewhere upthread) it seems this problem may go beyond those who are just starting out with HRT. If you don't look like either a man or a woman, and you're likely to look and/or feel out of place in either multi-person restroom, the family/handicapped third room is an excellent way to find relief without having to negotiate through social awkwardness.
Okay, fair enough. I actually agree with this. You're doing a much better job of defending TM's solution than TM is.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:32 PM   #2980
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,117
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you have a superior compromise?
As I already said it isn't a compromise. It is one side prevailing and the other side being denied. Oh it's a superior resolution in my view absolutely. But I wouldn't pretend being on the winning side was compromising that's fake news.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:35 PM   #2981
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Transsexuals care.
And they get a bathroom. Again, compromises are never perfect. If you have a perfect solution I'm sure we'd all love to read it. My suggestion strikes me as superior to what we have now, and solves some problems at least partway. I find that better than the current state, even though it's not perfect.

Would you like to present a flawless solution? Or are we all required to do nothing until one presents itself?

Quote:
Predatory men also care.
I don't feel a need to accommodate deliberate bad actors. I don't understand why you think I should.

Quote:
Your third bathroom is a complete non sequitur, in terms of these problems. And you still don't seem to understand the nature of Rolfe's problem.
Rolfe's problem is she only wants those she considers to be "real" women in the women-only bathroom. My suggestion retains the existence of a woman-only bathroom. What more can she want?

Quote:
The honor system is upheld and reinforced by social norms and expectations. Rolfe's problem is that removing the norms and expectations undermines the system that she and other women are currently able to depend on to some degree.
My suggestion would remove some of those Rolfe doesn't want from the women-only bathroom. How is that worse than not removing any?

Quote:
Your third bathroom doesn't undermine the honor system, but it doesn't reinforce it either. So there's that, anyway.
Oh, I didn't realize that in addition to making everyone happy a compromise suggestion had to improve on every aspect of the status quo. If I invent a water-fueled electric car tomorrow we should trash it because it doesn't cure cancer in the passengers!
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:36 PM   #2982
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is actually kind of fun. You keep finding new ways to phrase the same dismissal of the problem. So I get to keep finding new ways of rebutting your dismissal.

Here's our latest entry:

The whole point of being a transwoman is to make a statement about what sex they are.

You're not compromising on this point, you're just ignoring it.
Perhaps I'm not seeing that as the main problem here. The problem is access to bathrooms, not people's feelings. And no, the whole point of being a transwoman isn't to make a statement. It's to be a transwoman. They don't stop being a trans when they're alone without an audience to see them being women.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:37 PM   #2983
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,196
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
TM's proposed compromise benefits several groups of people in addition to those who choose to transition. Single dads with young daughters, single moms with young sons, husbands with physically disabled or cognitively declining wives (and vice-versa), people who are read as gender-ambiguous (for any reason), people who object to gendering themselves, anyone likely to be challenged when entering the restroom which matches their sex or gender.
I don't object to it, it's often a good idea. My local YMCA has bathrooms like that. But it's not going to happen in a lot of existing buildings because they don't want to spend the money to retrofit the place.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:37 PM   #2984
TomB
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 568
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom. So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women. All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.
As you say, all bathroom usage is already on the honor system. The only way out of the honor system is to issue everyone bathroom passes which they must keep on themselves and prominently display whenever they enter a locker room or bathroom.

If you forget to carry yours, you just have to pee in the hall.

Maybe for safety, we just have a basket of tasers and stun guns you can pick up for protection when you go in. But I guess that could be misused.
TomB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:42 PM   #2985
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,470
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
That sounds about right for bees. For mammals though, that's not quite right.
Yes, i was going to point out mammals, there's a tendency with mammals where the hierarchy is young to old.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #2986
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Perhaps I'm not seeing that as the main problem here. The problem is access to bathrooms, not people's feelings.
The entire discussion is about whether to grant access to bathrooms based on feelings.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:47 PM   #2987
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
As you say, all bathroom usage is already on the honor system. The only way out of the honor system is to issue everyone bathroom passes which they must keep on themselves and prominently display whenever they enter a locker room or bathroom.
There is actually another way out of the honor system: Get rid of the social norms and expectations that reinforce it and keep it effective.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 01:48 PM   #2988
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The entire discussion is about whether to grant access to bathrooms based on feelings.
Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?

True, it's not a perfect solution. My compromise suggestion doesn't make everybody happy, it doesn't improve on every aspect of the current system, and it's not absolutely free to implement. I look forward to hearing the solution that does all three of those things. Anybody?
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:10 PM   #2989
TomB
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 568
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?

True, it's not a perfect solution. My compromise suggestion doesn't make everybody happy, it doesn't improve on every aspect of the current system, and it's not absolutely free to implement. I look forward to hearing the solution that does all three of those things. Anybody?
There is no solution that one side or the other is not going to consider a total defeat.

I'm starting to think the best solution is to close all the bathrooms and put porta-potties on the lawn. Seems to work at sporting events.

It is actually sort of amazing that outdoor festivals and such are able to get by with banks of shared temporary outhouses with minimal privacy but we can't find an effective solution for indoor spaces.
TomB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:12 PM   #2990
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,196
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okay. But the feelings "I want to be able to use a bathroom" I'm holding more important than the feelings "I want to use a sex-segregated bathroom of my choice". Is that comprehensible?
Except the primary conflict is between two groups who BOTH want the second item: to use the sex-segregated bathroom of their choice. Your elevation of the first desire over the second one does nothing to guide any resolution to that conflict.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:13 PM   #2991
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,196
Originally Posted by TomB View Post
It is actually sort of amazing that outdoor festivals and such are able to get by with banks of shared temporary outhouses with minimal privacy but we can't find an effective solution for indoor spaces.
Portapotties are cheap. Building renovation is expensive.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:18 PM   #2992
TomB
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 568
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Portapotties are cheap. Building renovation is expensive.
Yes, but the renovation needed to emulate the bank of portapotties is not to build new bathrooms, as Tragic Monkey suggests, but to make the stalls more private and the common area more public. Shouldn't really be that expensive, but it's an idea that's been rejected by at least one of the sides in this thread.
TomB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:20 PM   #2993
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Except the primary conflict is between two groups who BOTH want the second item: to use the sex-segregated bathroom of their choice. Your elevation of the first desire over the second one does nothing to guide any resolution to that conflict.
I consider the problem of having no bathroom at all to be more important than the problem of not getting the bathroom of choice.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:49 PM   #2994
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,196
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I consider the problem of having no bathroom at all to be more important than the problem of not getting the bathroom of choice.
Who has no bathroom? Not transwomen. They can use the men's bathroom.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #2995
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 49,054
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who has no bathroom? Not transwomen. They can use the men's bathroom.
I think they'd prefer to use my suggested "don't care" third bathroom. It's not the women's bathroom, which would be their preferred ideal choice, but it's not the men's room, which would be a worse choice than the "don't care" bathroom.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:12 PM   #2996
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,406
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Transsexuals can use the "don't care" bathroom. So can the "men" who Rolfe is afraid are pretending to be women. All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it. So no, my proposal isn't safe against wilfull deception. Neither is the current system, or any other method proposed so far.
I'm sure the TSA could help with that.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:15 PM   #2997
d4m10n
Illuminator
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 3,892
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
All bathroom usage is on the honor system, until you institute guards and a method for them to determine "real" sex and check it.
I rather doubt Denise Wells would agree that it's just an honor system, even if she was acquitted in the end.
__________________
I'm a happy SINner on the Skeptic Ink Network!
Background Probability: Against Irrationality, Innumeracy, and Ignobility
http://skepticink.com/backgroundprobability/
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:18 PM   #2998
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,470
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I think they'd prefer to use my suggested "don't care" third bathroom. It's not the women's bathroom, which would be their preferred ideal choice, but it's not the men's room, which would be a worse choice than the "don't care" bathroom.
In the UK, we generally have male, female and disabled public toilets.
The disabled one is unisex, though some people judge you if you use it and don't look disabled.

Last edited by p0lka; 12th June 2019 at 03:20 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:29 PM   #2999
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,662
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
In the UK, we generally have male, female and disabled public toilets.
The disabled one is unisex, though some people judge you if you use it and don't look disabled.
My opinion on disabled stalls is that anyone can use them, but if there's a queue and you're disabled, you automatically get the disabled stall regardless of how long the queue is.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th June 2019, 03:40 PM   #3000
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,939
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I have no sympathy for anyone who seeks help to overcome discrimination in order to then exercise that discrimination themselves from the other side. Like freed slaves who become slaveowners. Hell with that. I'm not lifting a finger to help someone storm a barricade so they can reinforce it from the other side.
This. Yes, very much this.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.