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Tags Kentucky incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 4th June 2019, 12:59 AM   #961
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That means there are 700 times the acid attacks in the UK. With less than 1/5 the population. The UK acid attack rate is more than 3,500 times that of the US. It's because UKians love acid more than their own citizens!
We UKians don't love acid more than our own citizens because we willingly accept severe constraints on our ability to acquire acid to protect our fellow citizens.

Yes, acid attacks are a problem in the UK but to put this into some kind of context, there were 700 acid attacks in the UK, the number of fatalities is small and around 20% have required some kind of hospital attention. By comparison, there were over 10,000 homicides by gun in the US.

The UK government recognises that acid attacks are an issue and in response announced that acid sales would be significantly restricted:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41484909

Imagine if politicians in the US were to try to do something similar to address a problem which is several orders of magnitude worse.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:05 AM   #962
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The rate of murders is not the same as the incidences of mass shootings.

Even if mass shootings decline one year compared to the next, that does not mean the US has done anything particular to tackle the problem.

If mass shootings decline year on year and that can be causally linked to a law or policy or social change, then you have shown the US can and has been able to tackle mass shootings.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:16 AM   #963
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In 2017, UK had over 700 acid attacks. US had zero. And the US has 6 times the population as UK

It's because UKians love acid more than their fellow citizens!
There was a sudden rise in acid attacks, which was linked to scooter crime gangs in London who used it as their MO during robberies.

There were 228 acid attacks in 2012 and 601 in 2016.

Of the 2006 acid attacks in the UK between 2016 and 2018, 273 were in one London borough. 63% of attacks are accompanied by another crime such as robbery.

The speculation is that gangs have turned to acid because they cannot get guns and knife carrying is too risky.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...-police-London

No one in the UK defends acid attacks or claims we should all be armed with acid, because a good guy with acid can stop a bad guy with acid. There is no right to bear acid. There is no National Acid Association defending the rights of those who want to carry acid.

The UK does not love acid like the USA loves guns.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:07 AM   #964
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The rate of murders is not the same as the incidences of mass shootings.

Even if mass shootings decline one year compared to the next, that does not mean the US has done anything particular to tackle the problem.

If mass shootings decline year on year and that can be causally linked to a law or policy or social change, then you have shown the US can and has been able to tackle mass shootings.
Reification fallacy
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:09 AM   #965
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There was a sudden rise in acid attacks, which was linked to scooter crime gangs in London who used it as their MO during robberies.

There were 228 acid attacks in 2012 and 601 in 2016.

Of the 2006 acid attacks in the UK between 2016 and 2018, 273 were in one London borough. 63% of attacks are accompanied by another crime such as robbery.

The speculation is that gangs have turned to acid because they cannot get guns and knife carrying is too risky.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...-police-London

No one in the UK defends acid attacks or claims we should all be armed with acid, because a good guy with acid can stop a bad guy with acid. There is no right to bear acid. There is no National Acid Association defending the rights of those who want to carry acid.

The UK does not love acid like the USA loves guns.
I disagree. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. In the UK, acid is held in high esteem. In the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.

Last edited by Baylor; 4th June 2019 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:12 AM   #966
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We UKians don't love acid more than our own citizens because we willingly accept severe constraints on our ability to acquire acid to protect our fellow citizens.

Yes, acid attacks are a problem in the UK but to put this into some kind of context, there were 700 acid attacks in the UK, the number of fatalities is small and around 20% have required some kind of hospital attention. By comparison, there were over 10,000 homicides by gun in the US.

The UK government recognises that acid attacks are an issue and in response announced that acid sales would be significantly restricted:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41484909

Imagine if politicians in the US were to try to do something similar to address a problem which is several orders of magnitude worse.
There are many restrictions of guns. Just because you didn't read about in the Huffington Post doesn't mean the restrictions don't exist. I'm sick of telling you people this.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:49 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I disagree. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. In the UK, acid is held in high esteem. In the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.
Simply untrue. We don't have groups of people dedicated to ensuring access for people to acid, there are no constitutional protections for people's access to acid and the government has been able to introduce stringent restrictions on access to acid with absolutely no complaints from the public at large.

OTOH any attempt to restrict access to guns in the US is met with howls of protest from the NRA and other pressure groups.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
There are many restrictions of guns. Just because you didn't read about in the Huffington Post doesn't mean the restrictions don't exist. I'm sick of telling you people this.
There may be some restrictions but they're pretty minor compared to those in most developed countries and have been fought tooth and nail by the NRA. There has been no similar complaints for the introduction of far stricter restrictions on public access to acids in the UK.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:03 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Simply untrue. We don't have groups of people dedicated to ensuring access for people to acid, there are no constitutional protections for people's access to acid and the government has been able to introduce stringent restrictions on access to acid with absolutely no complaints from the public at large.

OTOH any attempt to restrict access to guns in the US is met with howls of protest from the NRA and other pressure groups.
Those "restrictions" have done no good because UK is the acid attack capital of the world and it's only getting worse.



Originally Posted by The Don View Post
There may be some restrictions but they're pretty minor compared to those in most developed countries and have been fought tooth and nail by the NRA. There has been no similar complaints for the introduction of far stricter restrictions on public access to acids in the UK.
So what? There doesn't need to be any "pressure groups" because UKians love acid and it's still legal and can easily be acquired despite UK being the acid attack capital of the world.

Last edited by Baylor; 4th June 2019 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:02 AM   #969
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those "restrictions" have done no good because UK is the acid attack capital of the world and it's only getting worse.
Your argument is that people in the UK are putting their love of acid ahead of the wellbeing of their fellow citizens. The adoption of restrictions on the acquisition of acid, the public outcry over the acid attacks and the lack of opposition to the restrictions shows that argument to be nonsense.

As regards the effectiveness or otherwise of the restrictions, they have only been recently introduced and we don't have a "control" to see what would have happened in the event that they hadn't been introduced.

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So what? There doesn't need to be any "pressure groups" because UKians love acid and it's still legal and can easily be acquired despite UK being the acid attack capital of the world.
I think you need to show that people in the UK love acid, so far you have not. You have demonstrated that a handful of people have used acid as a weapon and that as a result nearly 150 people have required some kind of medical attention over the course of the year.

OTOH those in the US appear to love guns. A significant minority of people own one or more, restrictions on use and ownership are comparatively benign and 10,000 people a year are killed using them and yet any restrictions on the use and ownership of guns is fought tooth and nail.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:49 AM   #970
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As a UKian, I'll tell you this. The gubmin is NEVER gonna get my acid. If they want my acid, they'll have to take it from my cold, dead (and probably melting) hand.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:12 AM   #971
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It seems to me this latest shooting went out of the headlines pretty fast.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:41 AM   #972
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are making a functional distinction, the issue being cited was legal not functional. Kind of like how the receiver is legally the gun in the US and many components are not regulated like barrels while in other countries like the UK it is pressure containing components that are legally regulated

What this means is that one must be able to legally make and sell NFA regulated firearms to make one and they must all be serialized. Unlike say a simple AR-15 that anyone can buy a 80% lower and finish it all nice and legal with out the need for serial numbers.

You may be overthinking my comments.

I was unfamiliar with the usage ranb applied. Now I'm not.

It's really that simple.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:51 AM   #973
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It is, but it's like how ecigarette parts in Canada have a " contains nicotine " warning on them.

Must be a Canada thing. I have a couple of shelves full of boxes for coils, tanks, pen batteries and mod boxes, from an assortment of manufacturers and suppliers, and none of them have any warnings about containing nicotine.

This kind of goes to what I was trying to understand, why a local jurisdiction couldn't ban firearms, but could ban silencers.

Quote:
They obviously contain no nicotine but so people don't skirt rules they are considered a product containing nicotine. (To be clear, as an example. When I buy a coil,which is cotton and steel. It contains said warning, as 1 example)

Yeah, and I've gotten them without such a warning. Although I've been making my own coils for a while now (I mostly use RTA tanks), even for things like Kanger/Evod coils, but I don't think it's changed here in the U.S.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:02 AM   #974
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In 2017, UK had over 700 acid attacks. US had zero. And the US has 6 times the population as UK

It's because UKians love acid more than their fellow citizens!
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That means there are 700 times the acid attacks in the UK. With less than 1/5 the population. The UK acid attack rate is more than 3,500 times that of the US. It's because UKians love acid more than their own citizens!
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I disagree. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. In the UK, acid is held in high esteem. In the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Those "restrictions" have done no good because UK is the acid attack capital of the world and it's only getting worse.



So what? There doesn't need to be any "pressure groups" because UKians love acid and it's still legal and can easily be acquired despite UK being the acid attack capital of the world.
Why are you so anxious to divert the discussion away from the thread topic? It couldn't be shame that so many Americans are shot to death, could it?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:07 AM   #975
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I disagree. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. In the UK, acid is held in high esteem. In the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.


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Old 4th June 2019, 12:22 PM   #976
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The resignation letter gives no clues on motive. It doesn't indicate any anger or disappointment, so it might not have been accurate to say that he was disgruntled. Here is what it says...

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
"I want to officially put in my (2) weeks' notice to vacant my position of Engineer III with the City of Virginia Beach. It has been a pleasure to serve the City, but due to personal reasons I must relieve my position."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-attack.html
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Must be a Canada thing. I have a couple of shelves full of boxes for coils, tanks, pen batteries and mod boxes, from an assortment of manufacturers and suppliers, and none of them have any warnings about containing nicotine.

This kind of goes to what I was trying to understand, why a local jurisdiction couldn't ban firearms, but could ban silencers.




Yeah, and I've gotten them without such a warning. Although I've been making my own coils for a while now (I mostly use RTA tanks), even for things like Kanger/Evod coils, but I don't think it's changed here in the U.S.
Yeah or laws here are strange. It most certainly a Canadian thing.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:09 PM   #978
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why are you so anxious to divert the discussion away from the thread topic? It couldn't be shame that so many Americans are shot to death, could it?
Why are you so quick to ignore things in your own country?
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:46 PM   #979
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Why are you so quick to ignore things in your own country?
What have I ignored? Of course we have shootings in Canada. There have been a number that can be labelled as mass shootings. This number pales by comparison to the US even allowing for the population difference. And I am not trying to divert the discussion to avoid mass shootings in Canada. Feel free to raise this issue.

Given that my comment you quoted was directed toward Baylor and his attempted diversion, are you perhaps suggesting that acid attacks are an issue in Canada that I am ignoring?

Your post seems to have no context relevant to the thread or to my comment.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:56 PM   #980
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That love is not shared elsewhere, where fellow citizens are loved more than guns.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:00 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post

OTOH those in the US appear to love guns. A significant minority of people own one or more, restrictions on use and ownership are comparatively benign and 10,000 people a year are killed using them and yet any restrictions on the use and ownership of guns is fought tooth and nail.
Every time you hear a European bugman mention "second amendment" or "The NRA" it's a red flag he has no idea what he's talking about. He knows he'll get hi-fives from other European bugmen but most Americans find it cringe.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:41 PM   #982
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I am thinking this whole situation is ridiculous.
Specifically in Virginia/Virginia Beach.
This man purchased his guns legally.
He is allowed to carry them in public buildings except courtrooms and schools.

Of course from time to time people will shoot dead whoever they choose.
America is used to it and nothing needs to change in accordance with the constitution. Generally it is still more dangerous to drive a car, but not to fly in America.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:47 PM   #983
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Generally it is still more dangerous to drive a car, but not to fly in America.
That's because it's far more difficult to take a gun on a plane than it is to bring a gun with you in a car

I'd question that it's more dangerous to drive because comparing raw casualty and death numbers doesn't take account of usage. That's like saying that playing golf is more dangerous than climbing Everest because more people globally die each year doing the latter than the former.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:49 AM   #984
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
OTOH those in the US appear to love guns. A significant minority of people own one or more, restrictions on use and ownership are comparatively benign and 10,000 people a year are killed using them and yet any restrictions on the use and ownership of guns is fought tooth and nail.
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Every time you hear a European bugman mention "second amendment" or "The NRA" it's a red flag he has no idea what he's talking about. He knows he'll get hi-fives from other European bugmen but most Americans find it cringe.
I would love to give Don a high five unfortunately he didn't mention "second amendment" or "The NRA".

Please try to read the posts you quote and make sure your comments are relevant to the quote, as you are getting us bugmen excited for no reason.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:20 AM   #985
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Reification fallacy
Can you explain that claim?

Quote:
I disagree. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. In the UK, acid is held in high esteem. In the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.
Can you evidence that claim?
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #986
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you explain that claim?
Sure. That argument is a reification fallacy.



Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Can you evidence that claim?
Yes. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. UK has something like 3,000 times the acid attacks as the US. Therefore, in the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #987
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I would love to give Don a high five unfortunately he didn't mention "second amendment" or "The NRA".

Please try to read the posts you quote and make sure your comments are relevant to the quote, as you are getting us bugmen excited for no reason.
Hi five!

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Simply untrue. We don't have groups of people dedicated to ensuring access for people to acid, there are no constitutional protections for people's access to acid and the government has been able to introduce stringent restrictions on access to acid with absolutely no complaints from the public at large.

OTOH any attempt to restrict access to guns in the US is met with howls of protest from the NRA and other pressure groups.



There may be some restrictions but they're pretty minor compared to those in most developed countries and have been fought tooth and nail by the NRA. There has been no similar complaints for the introduction of far stricter restrictions on public access to acids in the UK.
Please try to read the posts you quote and make sure your comments are relevant to the quote, as you are getting us bugmen excited for no reason.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:03 PM   #988
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The NRA is happy about this, it will drive up gun sales.
The NRA hates it when things like this happen but we live in the world that we do and schools need guards to protect them. Massacres happen in places where good guys are unarmed and the bad guys are.

Lunatics like this shooter usually say or do something to warn whoever is around them, not always but I bet the shooter gave warning of some kind and the school and the people who heard the warning should have acted accordingly. A mass shooting was averted because a student overheard two kids making plans and told the police.

As a gun owner myself and a NRA member I hate it when this happens.
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:10 AM   #989
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The NRA hates it when things like this happen but we live in the world that we do and schools need guards to protect them. Massacres happen in places where good guys are unarmed and the bad guys are.
Except of course when they do. Like when the armed school officer fleas for safety or the police shoot innocent armed citizens near a mass shooting. But never let facts get in the way.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:12 PM   #990
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sure. That argument is a reification fallacy.
Please explain how.

Quote:
Yes. UK is the acid attack capital of the world. UK has something like 3,000 times the acid attacks as the US. Therefore, in the UK, the love of acid outweighs the love of citizens.
Non sequitur. A high instance of something happening does not mean there is approval of it happening.

Instead there is universal revulsion at the number of attacks and those caught and convicted are punished.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:33 PM   #991
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
The NRA hates it when things like this happen but we live in the world that we do and schools need guards to protect them. Massacres happen in places where good guys are unarmed and the bad guys are.



Lunatics like this shooter usually say or do something to warn whoever is around them, not always but I bet the shooter gave warning of some kind and the school and the people who heard the warning should have acted accordingly. A mass shooting was averted because a student overheard two kids making plans and told the police.
It's ok everyone. It's the victims fault. Again. The solution is, as always, more guns and more armed people.

Quote:

As a gun owner myself and a NRA member I hate it when this happens.
Not enough to try to ease up your addiction to your guns.
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Old 6th June 2019, 06:29 PM   #992
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
....Instead there is universal revulsion at the number of attacks and those caught and convicted are punished.
Is that enough or is it working to reduce the attacks? I admit that I know next to nothing about acid attacks other than that I hear about them in the news from time to time. But there is universal revulsion over most forms of attacks on persons in civilized countries and the perpetrators are normally punished when caught.

So what are the authorities doing about acid attacks other than thoughts, prayers and punishment?
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:24 AM   #993
Darat
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I don't know if they have made it into law yet but the measures include outright ban of "acid" sales to under 18s and a new offence for carrying acid to be implemented in a similar way to the offence of carrying a knife. There was also suggestions to further reduce the public availability of sulphuric acid but again don't know if that has happened yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41484909
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Old 7th June 2019, 01:49 AM   #994
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Is that enough or is it working to reduce the attacks? I admit that I know next to nothing about acid attacks other than that I hear about them in the news from time to time. But there is universal revulsion over most forms of attacks on persons in civilized countries and the perpetrators are normally punished when caught.

So what are the authorities doing about acid attacks other than thoughts, prayers and punishment?
An example of action is making the purchase of corrosive substances harder;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/r...e-acid-attacks

Lots of retailers have voluntarily agreed to assist.

I get your comment on thoughts and prayers, but not punishment;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8233516.html

"Acid is to be defined as a “highly dangerous weapon” for the first time, allowing judges to impose harsher punishments on anyone found to be carrying it in public.
New guidelines published by the Sentencing Council are part of efforts to crackdown on a spate of attacks using corrosive substances, with more than 400 recorded in England and Wales in the six months to April last year."
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Old 7th June 2019, 02:06 AM   #995
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I don't know if they have made it into law yet but the measures include outright ban of "acid" sales to under 18s and a new offence for carrying acid to be implemented in a similar way to the offence of carrying a knife. There was also suggestions to further reduce the public availability of sulphuric acid but again don't know if that has happened yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41484909
I doubt it got anywhere given the exalted status of acid in the UK. There are just too many activists (known as acidvists) who hold rallies, vote, and engage in letter writing campaigns. Their enthusiasm and political power is comparable to gun rights activists in the US. I mean, if it weren't, then a poster here wouldn't foolishly double-down on the analogy after it's already been picked apart (Don) and brutally mocked (Ian).

With SJWs, the Left has achieved self-parody. It's clear they just want to restrict our access to long cherished tools. It's gotten to the point where they'll even whine on behalf of "victims" who received FREE acid.
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Old Yesterday, 01:14 AM   #996
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It seems to me this so nearly came close to happening, that I'm going to put it in this thread anyway. A man holding a loaded pistol and carrying lots of extra ammunition was arrested outside a New Jersey elementary school.

Quote:
Officers found the suspect Thursday afternoon in the front seat of his SUV at Tamaques Elementary School in Westfield, according to the Union County prosecutor's office. He was holding a loaded .45-caliber handgun, it said in a statement Friday.

Classes had let out for the day, but the precautionary lockdown went into effect because after-school activities were still going on, CNN affiliate News12 reported.

The man, later identified as Thomas J. Wilkie, 46, of Bear, Delaware, had two additional loaded clips of ammunition on his person and 130 more rounds in his vehicle's trunk, the prosecutor's office said.

Police acted on a tip from the New Castle Police Department in Delaware that said Wilkie was on his way to the school and may be armed, according to the statement.
The last detail is important. This wasn't just a man with weaponry who happened to be caught in a school parking lot where he may have randomly decided to stop; the police received a tip that he was heading specifically to that school with a weapon.
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