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Tags Florida incidents , school incidents , school shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 5th April 2018, 12:20 PM   #41
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh yes... anyone making such a stupid statement shows that not only do they not understand social media, they severely underestimate its power.
That's not the only thing they underestimate.

They keep talking about "children" as if it was meaningful in any way other than a misdirection. These "children" are mostly only a year or two from becoming "adults" in the legal sense of the word. If they were in court for some crime the same people would be clamoring for their treatment as adults.

To me it is more surprising that some people find it incredible that these young adults are capable of such organization than it is that they are doing it.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:32 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That's not the only thing they underestimate.

They keep talking about "children" as if it was meaningful in any way other than a misdirection. These "children" are mostly only a year or two from becoming "adults" in the legal sense of the word. If they were in court for some crime the same people would be clamoring for their treatment as adults.

To me it is more surprising that some people find it incredible that these young adults are capable of such organization than it is that they are doing it.
As a "child of the 60's" I recall young people organizing some rather large rallies and protests with no social media at all.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:33 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That doesn't mean that I buy into the ridiculous conspiracy theory that the students themselves organized a grassroots movement in response to a mass shooting at their school and that's taken over the world because they have the moral imperative.
How is that a conspiracy theory? Whatís the conspiracy?

Quote:
These kids are feeling genuine moral outrage but that outrage is being manipulated by adults behind the scenes and channeled to push a political agenda and has been starting on the day of the shooting.
How is that not a conspiracy theory? What evidence to you have to support this claim?

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I don't see any problem with criticizing these kids or calling them out for their BS.
Letís not pretend the goal here is anything so lofty as critical analysis or honest discourse. Itís a smear campaign, plain and simple.

Quote:
They are public figures who deserve to be mocked, ridiculed, and held accountable for what they say and do as much as any public figure. The fact that they are children doesn't mean we should tread lightly in dealing them or worry about hurting their feelings. They don't get a pass just because of what they experienced. The kids who are not in the limelight shouldn't be hounded by the press but Emma and David should have everything they say fact checked and not taken at face value.
The highlighted is as close as you come to telling the truth in this post, because thatís the only thing this is about. Itís why Ted Nugent called them ďsoullessĒ and Laura Ingraham ridiculed one of them for not getting into a certain college. Itís pure agenda-driven hatred.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As a "child of the 60's" I recall young people organizing some rather large rallies and protests with no social media at all.
Haha... I can't believe you buy into that conspiracy theory. Next youíll be telling me that we landed on the moon and the Earth isnít flat.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:38 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Haha... I can't believe you buy into that conspiracy theory. Next youíll be telling me that we landed on the moon and the Earth isnít flat.
I don't know about the earth but the moon is as flat as a dinner plate. Just look at it! That is all the evidence anyone needs. No-one could "land" on that - they would slide right off.
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Old 5th April 2018, 01:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And people ask me why I think that large swaths of the public believe these kids did all this on their own?
No, we already know that you like to distort what you read in strange and nonsensical ways. People not severely denigrating the actual actions of the kids and their effects somehow converts to "the kids did this all on their own" to you, after all. Do you seriously need every technicality spelled out every time?
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Old 5th April 2018, 01:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As a "child of the 60's" I recall young people organizing some rather large rallies and protests with no social media at all.
And no commies behind the anti-war and civil rights protests either.
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Old 5th April 2018, 01:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And no commies behind the anti-war and civil rights protests either.
Well, maybe a few.......but they were young!
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
After letting this nonsense soak in a bit more, I am reminded of my father who during my high school years told me the commies were recruiting kids on college campuses to oppose the Vietnam war.

Give the old man a break. Back then it was "commies" riling up opposition to the war. Today the it's "Nazis" preaching "hate speech" and "triggering" students with their "microaggressions." I agree with you. It is


Quote:
It was absurd then and it's absurd now thinking someone is manipulating these teen activists. They couldn't be more sincere, IMO.



Quote:
Oddly, many of the same people making such accusations are oblivious to or they dismiss the manipulation that went on and is going on via internet trolls and bots injecting and amplifying fake stories into the social media stream.
Yes, because "trolls" and "bots" injecting "fake" stories into the social media stream totally isn't a conspiracy theory.
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:21 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I don't know about the earth but the moon is as flat as a dinner plate. Just look at it! That is all the evidence anyone needs. No-one could "land" on that - they would slide right off.
No, it''s all sticky because of the green cheese.
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:29 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
No, it''s all sticky because of the green cheese.
I bow to your greater knowledge.
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:34 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
...


Yes, because "trolls" and "bots" injecting "fake" stories into the social media stream totally isn't a conspiracy theory.


Come on Cap'n, the bots and trolls injecting fake news into the social network is WELL DOCUMENTED!!!

There were no commies responsible for duping young people and instigating the Vietnam war protests. It did not happen. Steve's comment, OTOH, has some truth only in that some of the young people thought communism would be great. It was a minority of the crowd.
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Old 5th April 2018, 05:57 PM   #53
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CaptainHowdy really?! The reason the March for our Lives movement is strong is because it is lead by teenagers. The adults have tried to get gun safety laws enacted but gave up because of politics. Teenagers don't give a crap about politics so they aren't backing down. The teenagers are not paid actors, being manipulated, or simply doing the bidding of adults.

Also, Zdravstvuyte! Kak dela?
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Old 5th April 2018, 06:43 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
CaptainHowdy really?! The reason the March for our Lives movement is strong is because it is lead by teenagers.
Err... not quite. The reason that it's gained strength is far more that it's tapping into larger concerns that have been growing for a fair while. The leaders among the Parkland teens are serving more of a rallying cry and a beacon. That they're teenagers is a minor factor compared to that they're acting as representatives of the victims of a truly massive amount of failure from many quarters. That the same forces that have been dishonestly and unscrupulously pushing some of the major measures that have been helping to cause such failures are pushing out lots of absurd and nasty propaganda towards them is also setting up a hard to ignore victimized good guys vs. rotten evil bad guys narrative. There's plenty more that could be said, but that the leaders are teenagers is somewhat incidental. Important to a few things, yes, but greatly overshadowed by the larger things.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The adults have tried to get gun safety laws enacted but gave up because of politics. Teenagers don't give a crap about politics so they aren't backing down. The teenagers are not paid actors, being manipulated, or simply doing the bidding of adults.
They're not the first or third, rather certainly. "Manipulation" is harder to agree with, because what it can cover is far, far too broad. One could technically and honestly call a person asking their spouse to pick up milk on their way home "manipulation," after all, and it's not hard to just darken the tone with pointed omissions to make it sound significantly more unpleasant than it would sound with the full story.
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Old 5th April 2018, 08:36 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And no commies behind the anti-war and civil rights protests either.
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Well, maybe a few.......but they were young!

Probably more agitators planted by the FBI to try and turn the demonstrations ugly than actual commies, who wouldn't have wanted that anyway..
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Old 5th April 2018, 08:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
<snip>

Yes, because "trolls" and "bots" injecting "fake" stories into the social media stream totally isn't a conspiracy theory.

"Conspiracy"? Yeah.

"Theory"? Well, it isn't a "theory" any more. The evidence that it was (and is) being done is extensive and compelling.
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Old 5th April 2018, 08:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Conspiracy"? Yeah.

"Theory"? Well, it isn't a "theory" any more. The evidence that it was (and is) being done is extensive and compelling.
One of the things I see these days is that there are a bunch of people who will just mindlessly repeat some catch phrases, whether or not they even understand them. "Fake news" didn't start with Donald Trump saying that about CNN. It really happened. It wasn't just unfavorable spin from a network that was unfriendly. It was just plain made up stuff, being passed around the internet, masquerading as news.

Now, however, people use the phrase mindlessly to label politically unfriendly media outlets.

We saw it earlier with "crisis actors". That phrase has a meaning, and idiots on the internet actually claimed that the Parkland kids were crisis actors. That's ridiculous. However, the claim has been repeated by people who don't even know what a crisis actor is. The right wing doesn't hold a monopoly on this, either. It's kind of disconcerting, that people repeat lies so easily, without even understanding what they are saying.


But, to Captain Howdy. Yes. Trolls and bots really have been injecting fake news stories, not just unfavorably spun stories, into the internet, including about the Parkland kids. I don't know if you have fallen for any of them, but it is really happening, and yes, Russians really have been behind a lot of it. (I don't know if specifically the fake stories about Parkland have evidence of Russian involvement.)
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Old 5th April 2018, 09:03 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Err... not quite. The reason that it's gained strength is far more that it's tapping into larger concerns that have been growing for a fair while. The leaders among the Parkland teens are serving more of a rallying cry and a beacon.
That's what I think of them. I wouldn't even call them "leaders". They were just kids who lost a bunch of friends and said, "This is friggin' stupid!" And said they were going to organize.


For an historical analogy, I would compare them to Rosa Parks. Rosa Parks is now seen as a heroine, but really, all she did was refuse to give up a bus seat to a white guy. It was a simple act, but it was just at the right time, and a bunch of people, including real leaders of the civil rights movement, rallied around her.

My comparison of the kids to Rosa Parks isn't meant to put them in the same league of significance. I don't think the gun control movement is on the same level. I'm just saying that these kids aren't the real leaders of the gun control movement. I don't think it has any real leaders that I know of. These kids are just the symbol of why we feel like there needs to be gun control.
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How is that a conspiracy theory? Whatís the conspiracy?



How is that not a conspiracy theory? What evidence to you have to support this claim?
We've been over this already. I say these kids didn't organize this all on their own--that there were adults behind the scenes. You say that's a conspiracy theory. I reference a story in the WaPo or NYT detailing all the organizations that had been working with the students behind the scenes from day one. You then say there's no conspiracy theory because you knew that all along. Now it's back to being a conspiracy theory. I give up. You're right. David and Emma and all the other students did this all by themselves.

Quote:
Letís not pretend the goal here is anything so lofty as critical analysis or honest discourse. Itís a smear campaign, plain and simple.
I agree with you. These students haven't made any concrete proposals that can be analyzed or discussed. They're not interested in reducing gun violence. They want to destroy the NRA and repeal the 2nd amendment.

They might even succeed. But there will still be guns in America just like there are in every other country around the world. And the problem won't be addressed and this sort of thing will happen again and again.


Quote:
The highlighted is as close as you come to telling the truth in this post, because thatís the only thing this is about. Itís why Ted Nugent called them ďsoullessĒ and Laura Ingraham ridiculed one of them for not getting into a certain college. Itís pure agenda-driven hatred.
When the David Hogg is saying that anybody who disagrees with wants to see more dead children, you can't be surprised if some people react with equally ridiculous hyperbole.

But I disagree with what Ted Nugent and Laura Igraham said. Ted was just being stupid and Laura was just mean. Instead of acting like a couple of high school seniors they should've pointed out that Sheriff Scott Israel is the person most responsible for this tragedy, not the NRA. They had the chance to rise above the David Hoggs of the world and focus the blame where it belongs. They blew it.
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:24 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Probably more agitators planted by the FBI to try and turn the demonstrations ugly than actual commies, who wouldn't have wanted that anyway..
It was George Soros, not the FBI. Not him personally. He was too old in the 1960s to pass as a college student. But he financed it
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Old 6th April 2018, 01:37 AM   #61
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Cain, is that you?

Not one of your better efforts, too OTT.
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Old 6th April 2018, 02:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They're not interested in reducing gun violence. They want to destroy the NRA and repeal the 2nd amendment.

They might even succeed. But there will still be guns in America just like there are in every other country around the world. And the problem won't be addressed and this sort of thing will happen again and again.
It seems pretty clear that they do in fact want to reduce gun violence. In particular school shootings.

"The problem" is that guns in general, and high capacity semi-auto guns in particular are too easy to access in the USA.

Any crank that wants one can go to a Walmart and buy whatever they like off the shelf, or if they fall foul of what little paperwork checks there are, then they can go to a gun show and pick up their own private arsenal no questions asked.

In other countries the Parkland shooter would have had approximately zero chance of acquiring the weapons he used, the Columbine shooters and the Sandy Hook shooter the same. It's possible they could have got hold of them, but in the UK we put enough stumbling blocks in front of them that they tend to give up and do something else. We have just as many cranks here, they just don't have ready access to powerful weaponry. You don't need good guys with guns, if the bad guys don't have guns in the first place.


The NRA uses the same political games as everyone else does. They are interested in power and money, they pay lip service to a particular issue that
a small but very vocal set of Americans are passionate about and they use the politics of fear to spin events to get the group they 'represent' to send them money and keep them in positions of power.

The NRA frames "gun control laws" as "They want to take away your freedom!" and paints the picture of NRA members being true patriots fighting to maintain essential freedoms. The head NRA guy La Pierre isn't even a gun enthusiast. He's a politician through and through.

It's a con, an angle to get people to maintain his position of power and influence and wealth. The same way pretty much all the other politicians work. They are just better at it than most.

There will come a time where the NRA has less influence over policy, hopefully this time around that might actually happen and instead of worrying more about getting re-elected and listening to lobbyists. The politicians in the US might actually listen to the people that elected them and change the gun laws for the better.

It's possible to come up with better gun laws that respect the 2nd amendment but also greatly reduce the mass shootings that occur regularly. Why not engage in the debate about gun laws instead of trying to stifle it?

The 'kids' from Parkland actually got shot at. In school. Some of them lost friends. That gives them a insight into the debate that you don't have. Why not listen to them instead of try to marginalise them?

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Old 6th April 2018, 02:59 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They're not interested in reducing gun violence. They want to destroy the NRA and repeal the 2nd amendment.
Bw... bw.... bwhahahahahahaha.





There goes the coffee all over my keyboard
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:03 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
They're not interested in reducing gun violence. They want to destroy the NRA and repeal the 2nd amendment
You say that like it's two separate things.

I see it as more like: They are very interested in reducing gun violence, and the approaches they are talking about include reducing the influence of the NRA, and repealing or amending the 2nd amendment.
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:08 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The NRA uses the same political games as everyone else does. They are interested in power and money, they pay lip service to a particular issue that
a small but very vocal set of Americans are passionate about and they use the politics of fear to spin events to get the group they 'represent' to send them money and keep them in positions of power.

The NRA frames "gun control laws" as "They want to take away your freedom!" and paints the picture of NRA members being true patriots fighting to maintain essential freedoms. The head NRA guy La Pierre isn't even a gun enthusiast. He's a politician through and through.

It's a con, an angle to get people to maintain his position of power and influence and wealth. The same way pretty much all the other politicians work. They are just better at it than most.

There will come a time where the NRA has less influence over policy, hopefully this time around that might actually happen and instead of worrying more about getting re-elected and listening to lobbyists. The politicians in the US might actually listen to the people that elected them and change the gun laws for the better.
I just thought I'd leave this here for your enjoyment (and to show exactly how right you are)...



Note the DISTINCT lack of blue bars on this graph!?
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:28 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
...snip...

The 'kids' from Parkland actually got shot at. In school. Some of them lost friends. That gives them a insight into the debate that you don't have. Why not listen to them instead of try to marginalise them?
The kids should be rejoicing in seeing their friends being killed to water the tree of liberty!
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Old 6th April 2018, 04:19 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Bw... bw.... bwhahahahahahaha.





There goes the coffee all over my keyboard
If you thought that about the post you quoted, what do you think of this?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It was George Soros, not the FBI. Not him personally. He was too old in the 1960s to pass as a college student. But he financed it
I'd give it 9.9, dropping 0.1 for missing the parentheses around (((George Soros)))
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Old 6th April 2018, 05:12 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If you thought that about the post you quoted, what do you think of this?

I'd give it 9.9, dropping 0.1 for missing the parentheses around (((George Soros)))



There's nothing for it but to give is a great big
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:05 AM   #69
Ambrosia
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I just thought I'd leave this here [...]

Note the DISTINCT lack of blue bars on this graph!?
I don't see a problem with candidates getting money from special interest groups per se. The gun issue is very partisan, perhaps the single most partisan issue in Us politics, hence the monotone graph.

The bigger issue is the influence that the NRA (and other special interest groups, though the NRA are the gold standard in lobbying) can drum up by getting their members to contact their representatives.

Nothing scares a politician more than the idea that they might get kicked out of office and have to return to a 'normal' life with less power and less influence and less wealth. So a few hundred people calling in and expressing that if you do X I won't vote for you, motivates them to act.

It's the disproportionate effect that this has on policies that's the biggest flaw in our current democratic system. A flaw that's not unique to the US. Couple that to the fact that in a lot of swing states it doesn't take much of a shift in votes for "the other side" to get in which is a total anathema to rabidly partisan politicians entrenched in a two party FPTP system and we are all stuck with a democracy that doesn't represent the people very well.

I don't know how it can be fixed. It needs a root and branch reform of the system and that runs into the turkeys voting for Christmas problem. It's also getting too far into politics outside of the politics forum.

I would love to see gun reform in the US though. It doesn't affect me directly, but it's heartbreaking seeing events like Sandy Hook and Parkland on the news knowing that it doesn't have to be that way.
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Old 6th April 2018, 09:01 AM   #70
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
You say that like it's two separate things.

I see it as more like: They are very interested in reducing gun violence, and the approaches they are talking about include reducing the influence of the NRA, and repealing or amending the 2nd amendment.
Or, more correctly, the new interpretation of the 2nd Amendment that the NRA's managed to con the people into accepting.


Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
I don't see a problem with candidates getting money from special interest groups per se. The gun issue is very partisan, perhaps the single most partisan issue in Us politics, hence the monotone graph.
I'm going to directly blame the NRA for that, quite frankly. More specifically, blame it on the right-wing coup that happened a fair while ago that resulted in its change from a non-partisan organization to a highly partisan organization. That kind of thing naturally ends up making the issue into much more of a partisan one, especially when it happens with an already influential organization.


Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
The bigger issue is the influence that the NRA (and other special interest groups, though the NRA are the gold standard in lobbying) can drum up by getting their members to contact their representatives.
And, probably just as importantly, strongly influence their voting choices and enthusiasm.
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Old 6th April 2018, 11:04 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
If you thought that about the post you quoted, what do you think of this?

I'd give it 9.9, dropping 0.1 for missing the parentheses around (((George Soros)))
Think of it as a public service, a "save your breath" emblem like a confederate flag or a clown suit.
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Old 6th April 2018, 02:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Ambrosia View Post
It seems pretty clear that they do in fact want to reduce gun violence. In particular school shootings.

"The problem" is that guns in general, and high capacity semi-auto guns in particular are too easy to access in the USA.

Any crank that wants one can go to a Walmart and buy whatever they like off the shelf, or if they fall foul of what little paperwork checks there are, then they can go to a gun show and pick up their own private arsenal no questions asked.
It's not quite as simple as that. Every state has different requirements for gun ownership but in none of them is it as simple as going to Walmart and buying whatever they want off the shelf.

Quote:
In other countries the Parkland shooter would have had approximately zero chance of acquiring the weapons he used, the Columbine shooters and the Sandy Hook shooter the same.
It's possible they could have got hold of them, but in the UK we put enough stumbling blocks in front of them that they tend to give up and do something else. We have just as many cranks here, they just don't have ready access to powerful weaponry. You don't need good guys with guns, if the bad guys don't have guns in the first place.
That's why, along with restricting certain types of guns, we need to restrict certain types of people from having access to firearm. Focusing only on the gun ignores the government policy failures and failures due to incompetence that contributed to Nikolas Cruz acquiring a gun.

Quote:
The NRA uses the same political games as everyone else does. They are interested in power and money, they pay lip service to a particular issue that
a small but very vocal set of Americans are passionate about and they use the politics of fear to spin events to get the group they 'represent' to send them money and keep them in positions of power.
That's not a hysterical way of saying that they advocate for a cause and solicit donations, no siree Bob!

Quote:
The NRA frames "gun control laws" as "They want to take away your freedom!" and paints the picture of NRA members being true patriots fighting to maintain essential freedoms. The head NRA guy La Pierre isn't even a gun enthusiast. He's a politician through and through.

It's a con, an angle to get people to maintain his position of power and influence and wealth. The same way pretty much all the other politicians work. They are just better at it than most.
So the NRA are just like the ADL, SPLC, AARP and every other advocacy group?

Quote:

There will come a time where the NRA has less influence over policy, hopefully this time around that might actually happen and instead of worrying more about getting re-elected and listening to lobbyists. The politicians in the US might actually listen to the people that elected them and change the gun laws for the better.

It's possible to come up with better gun laws that respect the 2nd amendment but also greatly reduce the mass shootings that occur regularly. Why not engage in the debate about gun laws instead of trying to stifle it?
I think debate about the gun laws is great. But it needs to be done rationally.

Quote:
The 'kids' from Parkland actually got shot at. In school. Some of them lost friends. That gives them a insight into the debate that you don't have. Why not listen to them instead of try to marginalise them?
These kids have an insight into what it feels like to be in an active shooter situation that I don't have. Their experience doesn't give them any particular insight into the gun control debate. They don't have any moral authority to speak on this issue that we don't have. I understand that they're been through a traumatic experience and that they're angry. I can forgive them for not being familiar with guns and gun control issues and for speaking out emotionally. But they are unfamiliar with the issue and they are in a charged emotional state. I give them the same courtesy and deference that I give anybody who is passionately arguing a position that they don't know anything about. And you should too.
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:34 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's not quite as simple as that. Every state has different requirements for gun ownership but in none of them is it as simple as going to Walmart and buying whatever they want off the shelf.

That's why, along with restricting certain types of guns, we need to restrict certain types of people from having access to firearm. Focusing only on the gun ignores the government policy failures and failures due to incompetence that contributed to Nikolas Cruz acquiring a gun.


That's not a hysterical way of saying that they advocate for a cause and solicit donations, no siree Bob!

So the NRA are just like the ADL, SPLC, AARP and every other advocacy group?

I think debate about the gun laws is great. But it needs to be done rationally.


These kids have an insight into what it feels like to be in an active shooter situation that I don't have. Their experience doesn't give them any particular insight into the gun control debate. They don't have any moral authority to speak on this issue that we don't have. I understand that they're been through a traumatic experience and that they're angry. I can forgive them for not being familiar with guns and gun control issues and for speaking out emotionally. But they are unfamiliar with the issue and they are in a charged emotional state. I give them the same courtesy and deference that I give anybody who is passionately arguing a position that they don't know anything about. And you should too.
It might seem complex to you but it's simple enough that every other rich country has solved this problem.

However I can understand how you could find it complex if you are struggling with reality as in the following post

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It was George Soros, not the FBI. Not him personally. He was too old in the 1960s to pass as a college student. But he financed it
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:52 PM   #74
Aridas
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's not quite as simple as that. Every state has different requirements for gun ownership but in none of them is it as simple as going to Walmart and buying whatever they want off the shelf.
It's also not all the much tougher than that, frequently, and Ambrosia made reference to the fact that there was a bit more to with the following bit.

You've conspicuously got no answer to the fact that the Parkland people actually do want to reduce gun violence, though?

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That's why, along with restricting certain types of guns, we need to restrict certain types of people from having access to firearm. Focusing only on the gun ignores the government policy failures and failures due to incompetence that contributed to Nikolas Cruz acquiring a gun.
By this point, it can can only be assumed that you're being intentionally "unaware" that gun control groups, including the Parkland students, are not focusing only on the guns and are focusing on the people, too.


Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That's not a hysterical way of saying that they advocate for a cause and solicit donations, no siree Bob!
Hysterical? No. Advocating for a cause and soliciting donations is fine, of course. Some methods of doing so are completely fine. Other methods are worthy of condemnation.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the NRA are just like the ADL, SPLC, AARP and every other advocacy group?
Are they using condemnation-worthy methods? If so, they deserve to be called out on their use of them, too.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I think debate about the gun laws is great. But it needs to be done rationally.
Of course. And much of what the Parkland activists are pushing is rational. Unless you think that things like actually getting necessary information to the background check system is not rational? Perhaps you have a problem with allocating more resources to mental health research and services? Perhaps you think that it's reasonable for there to be very inconsistent restrictions between handguns and semi-automatic rifles?
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Old 6th April 2018, 03:54 PM   #75
Ambrosia
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
It's not quite as simple as that. Every state has different requirements for gun ownership but in none of them is it as simple as going to Walmart and buying whatever they want off the shelf.
It might as well be. As I understand it (and please correct me if I am misinformed) you can go to a gun show and buy anything you damn well please from a private seller, no questions asked. As I understand it you can buy anything that's on the shelf at WalMart (other gun shops are available) with paperwork that's effectively a rubber stamp.

Quote:
That's why, along with restricting certain types of guns, we need to restrict certain types of people from having access to firearm. Focusing only on the gun ignores the government policy failures and failures due to incompetence that contributed to Nikolas Cruz acquiring a gun.
Great. I agree that you need to restrict certain people from owning guns. Period. I'd suggest that you start by disqualifying anyone with a criminal record for example.

Quote:
I think debate about the gun laws is great. But it needs to be done rationally.
OK. Rationally then, what changes to gun legislation would you like to see?

Can we agree that there should be changes to US gun laws?

Would you support increased background checks?
Would you support a blacklist? Where if your name is on said list for <reasons> then you don't get to own a gun. What reasons would you support for adding people to such a blacklist?
Would you support restrictions on any types of guns? either banning certain categories of guns completely, or restricting them to being kept solely at a gun range?


Quote:
These kids have an insight into what it feels like to be in an active shooter situation that I don't have. Their experience doesn't give them any particular insight into the gun control debate.
I would argue that it does. But we can agree to disagree on that.
I think I disagree with you on lots of things. but lets move past all of that.
I'd genuinely like to hear what changes you would like to see to the existing laws, if any.
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:11 PM   #76
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S.C. Republicans introduce bill to consider secession over gun rights

The bill, which was referred to the state House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, would allow South Carolina lawmakers to debate whether to secede from the United States if the federal government were to violate the Second Amendment.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ider-secession
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Old 6th April 2018, 06:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
S.C. Republicans introduce bill to consider secession over gun rights

The bill, which was referred to the state House Judiciary Committee on Thursday, would allow South Carolina lawmakers to debate whether to secede from the United States if the federal government were to violate the Second Amendment.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ider-secession
And History say's: "NOPE!"
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Old 6th April 2018, 07:51 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
I agree with you. These students haven't made any concrete proposals that can be analyzed or discussed.
Sure they have.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
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Old 6th April 2018, 08:32 PM   #79
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sure they have.
That's March For Our Lives. Not quite the same thing as the Parkland students, to be clear.

I'd point to The Guardian's article for something far more directly representative of the Parkland students themselves. It also goes into significantly more detail about the reasoning involved and, shockingly enough, contains multiple points that directly relate to the people. Yes, that thing that CaptainHowdy keeps claiming is being totally ignored by them.

Even reading the first couple paragraphs is enough to show that most of CaptainHowdy's complaints are complete nonsense, though.

ETA: to add a condensed list for basic discussion.

So, bigger proposals by them in that are -

1) Ban semi-automatic weapons that fire high-velocity rounds - These weapons should be limited to the military.
2) Ban accessories that simulate automatic weapons - These things can and do dramatically increase the harm that crazies do.
3) Establish a database of gun sales and universal background checks - Basic record-keeping is the responsible thing to do and can allow for a lot of crime to potentially be prevented.
4) Change privacy laws to allow mental healthcare providers to communicate with law enforcement - Background checks should actually be getting information of relevance.
5) Close gun show and secondhand sales loopholes - Stop making it so easy for dangerous and mentally unstable people to just not have to submit to background checks.
6) Allow the CDC to make recommendations for gun reform - Research is important. Making use of it is important.
7) Raise the firearm purchase age to 21 - Handguns are restricted purchases there until age 21. Why aren't the much more dangerous semi-automatic rifles?
8) Dedicate more funds to mental health research and professionals - Fairly self-explanatory, really.
9) Increase funding for school security - Again, fairly self-explanatory.

Not even a hint of blaming it all on the weapons, unsurprisingly. Note: My summation of the arguments doesn't even try to fully convey the actual arguments made. Read the article itself for a better sense of it.
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Old 7th April 2018, 06:58 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sure they have.
Then again, why SHOULD the school students have to be the ones to come up with policy proposals to do things like, prevent school shootings?

The rightwingers are the ones who keep saying how these are ignorant school kids, what do they know? So how can there be a complaint that they haven't come up with any plans?

I've pointed this out before. The most important thing the Parkland students are doing is to highlight the problem. OK, you don't like the solutions that have been suggested. What is your solution? Put more guns in school?

Because you can't disagree with them that school shootings are a problem, do you? Do you contend that a few school and other mass shootings are a legitimate price to pay in a free society? If you don't think that, then come up with an answer. It doesn't have to be gun control, just something that will help.

Don't leave this up to high school students to solve. Be grown ups. But, above all, do something about it!
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