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Tags Facebook incidents , Facebook issues , free speech issues , internet incidents

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Old 21st April 2019, 06:09 AM   #121
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You have not been keeping up. They've held 53 of them in the 2Ĺ years. 16 of them have been in stadiums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Trump_rallies
And this is why people who arenít nazis are worried about what youíre willing to do to ďnazisĒ.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:11 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You have not been keeping up. They've held 53 of them in the 2Ĺ years. 16 of them have been in stadiums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Trump_rallies
So is that what passes for nazis nowadays ? My, how times have changed.

That must make the Democrats communists.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:25 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So is that what passes for nazis nowadays ? My, how times have changed.

That must make the Democrats communists.
No, it doesnít work that way. Voting for an actual communist doesnít make you a communist, but supporting Israel makes you a Nazi.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:55 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You have not been keeping up. They've held 53 of them in the 2Ĺ years. 16 of them have been in stadiums.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Trump_rallies
To be fair, not all of those people are Neo Nazis. Most of them are just garden variety racists and assorted cretins.

To show the large Nazi rallies it's better to go here.

Or don't, if the aim is to minimize the danger of the extreme right, as seems to be the case of certain posters.
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Old 21st April 2019, 08:59 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So is that what passes for nazis nowadays ? My, how times have changed.
Oh, you were talking about Nazis? My bad!!

I thought you were talking about racists, bigots and white supremacists.
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Old 21st April 2019, 09:07 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
To be fair, not all of those people are Neo Nazis. Most of them are just garden variety racists and assorted cretins.

To show the large Nazi rallies it's better to go here.

Or don't, if the aim is to minimize the danger of the extreme right, as seems to be the case of certain posters.
It is quite disturbing to see how many of these vile groups of bastards there are in the USA.... and these are the people that some posters here would like to see given every opportunity to spread their vileness.

Meanwhile, when a violent group at the other end of the political spectrum has their so-called free speech rights infringed, we get crickets!

This speaks volumes!
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Old 21st April 2019, 09:19 AM   #127
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Over the past 6 months how many muslims have racists in America killed?

Now how many have extremist muslims in Muslim ran countries killed?

Seems to me if we are worried about brown folks we are trying to flush the wrong end of the turd.
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Old 21st April 2019, 09:33 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, you were talking about Nazis? My bad!!

I thought you were talking about racists, bigots and white supremacists.
Yep, I was talking about nazis, that's why I used the word "nazi" in post #104
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Old 21st April 2019, 10:44 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, not advocating violence is usually a fairly clear line (although would people advocating for the US entrance into WW2 against Germany cross that line?). Except almost all the discussion here justifying the banning is based on the identity of the people who were banned, and not the specific content of whatever they posted. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single reference to any posted content which violated Facebook's policies. So I don't really believe that that's actually the line which is being drawn. It smells a whole lot like "offensive speech is violence".
Saying one is a Nazi or one supports Nazism is to advocate for violence.
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:14 PM   #130
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Are there not terms and conditions for Facebook? That one ages to by clicking?

Seems that if a bunch of people signed up for a gym membership for a year, then get told 6 months in that it is only a Christian gym, there would be some issues.

Not saying there is legal ground, but it is morally dubious at best.
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Saying one is a Nazi or one supports Nazism is to advocate for violence.
The bar for who counts as a Nazi has been lowered considerably as of late.

ETA: and does being a communist also mean you advocate violence?
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The bar for who counts as a Nazi has been lowered considerably as of late.
1. Nazis
2. White supremacists
3. Racists
4. Bigots
5. Antifa

These all fall under the same bar IMO, but I have noticed that there are only ever "b-b-b-but what about their Free Speech rights" complaints when any of the first four are booted off a platform like Facebook or twitter or you-tube.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
ETA: and does being a communist also mean you advocate violence?
It can do. Ever heard of the Red Brigades? Rote Zora? Earth Liberation Front? Action Directe? Black Liberation Army? Japanese Red Army? The Communist Party of India? FARC?

For mine, this lot also fall under the bar and if they are on platforms like Facebook, ought to be removed.
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:45 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Are there not terms and conditions for Facebook? That one ages to by clicking?



Seems that if a bunch of people signed up for a gym membership for a year, then get told 6 months in that it is only a Christian gym, there would be some issues.



Not saying there is legal ground, but it is morally dubious at best.
How is it morally dubious?
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:48 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The bar for who counts as a Nazi has been lowered considerably as of late.

ETA: and does being a communist also mean you advocate violence?
As I've said before we rarely allow stupidity to be an excuse in regards to breaking the law, if someone who isn't a Nazi is stupid enough to claim to be a Nazi that is their problem not mine.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:17 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
ETA: and does being a communist also mean you advocate violence?
Calling oneself "The Young Turks" certainly means you advocate for violence and genocide. Violence and genocide is part and parcel of the Young Turks.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:20 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Over the past 6 months how many muslims have racists in America killed?

Now how many have extremist muslims in Muslim ran countries killed?

Seems to me if we are worried about brown folks we are trying to flush the wrong end of the turd.
Whataboutism. False dichotomy. Leading statement.

Do you think this policy of Facebook only applies in America? Do you think it is within Facebook's power to address killings in 'Muslim ran' countries? Do you think that Facebook taking this action in absolutely any way even hinders other actions in other countries? Do you think America should be held to a lesser, equal, or greater standard than other countries by Americans?

My evaluation is that it is absolutely possible to care about both the rise and power of far right groups in the US and about religious governments (even specifically Muslim ones) at, get this, the same time.

Your reasoning looks to be all over the place. Try refining your objection to the subject at hand.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:21 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I've said before we rarely allow stupidity to be an excuse in regards to breaking the law, if someone who isn't a Nazi is stupid enough to claim to be a Nazi that is their problem not mine.
I'm talking about people who don't claim to be Nazis who are labeled as Nazis. And you didn't answer my question about Communists.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:26 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm talking about people who don't claim to be Nazis who are labeled as Nazis. And you didn't answer my question about Communists.
Individual claims should be based on their merits, even if reality means one group is consistently more wrong than another.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:32 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm talking about people who don't claim to be Nazis who are labeled as Nazis..
If you side with Nazis and/or attend protests alongside Nazis and/or spout the beliefs of Nazis such as - "Blut und Boden" and "The Jews will not replace us", and carry the regalia of Nazism...



... then you are calling yourself a Nazi, and you ARE a Nazi in every way that matters!
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:39 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you side with Nazis and/or attend protests alongside Nazis and/or spout the beliefs of Nazis such as - "Blut und Boden" and "The Jews will not replace us", and carry the regalia of Nazism...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...14%29_crop.jpg

... then you are calling yourself a Nazi, and you ARE a Nazi in every way that matters!
Do you think that is an accurate representation of Trumpís rallies?

And are you a communist if communists join your protest against, say, the Iraq war? How easy does this association rub off?
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:41 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And this is why people who arenít nazis are worried about what youíre willing to do to ďnazisĒ.
Has FB banned all Trump supporters?
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:43 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Has FB banned all Trump supporters?
It has banned people who didnít violate their terms of service for apparently having conservative opinions.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:44 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm talking about people who don't claim to be Nazis who are labeled as Nazis. And you didn't answer my question about Communists.
Well I wasnt.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:45 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It has banned people who didnít violate their terms of service for apparently having conservative opinions.
I find it hard to believe FB is banning people for right-wing views alone.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:55 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well I wasnt.
Then your response to my post was pointless.
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Old 21st April 2019, 03:57 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I find it hard to believe FB is banning people for right-wing views alone.
Sure, there are other reasons: someone complained, and whoever Facebook has handling this stuff didnít like them. That doesnít apply to everyone with conservative opinions, but that doesnít make it not a problem.
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Old 21st April 2019, 05:09 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you think that is an accurate representation of Trumpís rallies?
I think is is a fair representation of the attitudes of a significant proportion of Trump supporters.

Have you heard Trump, at one of his rallies, say how he condones violence; how he would punch out people who disagree with him, how he invited attendees to beat up hecklers and offered to pay their legal fees if they would? Did you hear how all his disciples cheered when he did that?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And are you a communist if communists join your protest against, say, the Iraq war? How easy does this association rub off?
Nothing wrong with being politically right-wing such as an ultra-conservative, but there is everything with being a right-wing proponent of violence.

Nothing wrong with being politically left-wing such as a communist, but there is everything with being a left-wing proponent of violence.

If I was participating in a protest against the Irag war, and I was joined by communists, that would not make me a communist, but if I was joined by Antifa, then I would expect them to leave, and if they didn't then I would leave, because by remaining, I would be showing solidarity with them, and associating myself with them and that would make me Antifa in all but name.
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Old 21st April 2019, 05:53 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, there are other reasons: someone complained, and whoever Facebook has handling this stuff didn’t like them. ....
...and they were tied to a group pushing violence.

Of course maybe you don't think someone bashing immigrants and Muslims counts as potential violence.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:01 PM   #149
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Just as I suspected, you have a different view of some of these groups and issues, Zig.

Facebook and Instagram are banning white nationalism and separatism - They will prohibit praise, support and representation of the ideologies.
Quote:
"We decided that the overlap between white nationalism, separatism, and white supremacy is so extensive we really can't make a meaningful distinction between them," Brian Fishman, Facebook's counterterrorism policy director, told Motherboard. "And that's because the language and the rhetoric that is used and the ideology that it represents overlaps to a degree that it is not a meaningful distinction."
I can see why you think that's just about ideology. But others (including me) think you can't segregate the ideology from the violence they support, 2nd Amendment solutions and all that.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:07 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
...and they were tied to a group pushing violence.

Of course maybe you don't think someone bashing immigrants and Muslims counts as potential violence.
Are you going down that speech-is-violence road ?

That somebody voicing their opposition to illegal immigration has the potential for actual violence and should be banned ?
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:17 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
So is that what passes for nazis nowadays ? My, how times have changed.



That must make the Democrats communists.
Not just communists: Full on secret police having, gulag running, kulak killing, mass murdering Stalinists.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:18 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It is quite disturbing to see how many of these vile groups of bastards there are in the USA.... and these are the people that some posters here would like to see given every opportunity to spread their vileness.

Meanwhile, when a violent group at the other end of the political spectrum has their so-called free speech rights infringed, we get crickets!

This speaks volumes!
That's not quite true - it's actually even worse.

So-called "free speech advocates" often are silent even when explicitly *nonviolent* views on the left are targeted by government officials (eg. Black Lives Matter, UC Berkley, Refuse Fascism), and such groups are often smeared as "terrorists" or "hate groups" by the same people.

ETA:
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think is is a fair representation of the attitudes of a significant proportion of Trump supporters.

Have you heard Trump, at one of his rallies, say how he condones violence; how he would punch out people who disagree with him, how he invited attendees to beat up hecklers and offered to pay their legal fees if they would? Did you hear how all his disciples cheered when he did that?
We've also seen multiple people assault protestors or journalists at Dolt 45's hate rallies, after the idiot repeatedly suggested violence as an appropriate response. Cheeto Benito has also embraced a congressman that attacked a reporter in response to a rather mild question.

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Old 21st April 2019, 06:37 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Are you going down that speech-is-violence road ?

That somebody voicing their opposition to illegal immigration has the potential for actual violence and should be banned ?
Where are you going to draw the line?

A bunch of idiots marching with Tiki torches chanting blood and soil? Free speech.

One of them driving into a crowd killing a woman? Ban that guy from FB.

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Old 21st April 2019, 06:37 PM   #154
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nothing wrong with being politically right-wing such as an ultra-conservative, but there is everything with being a right-wing proponent of violence.

Nothing wrong with being politically left-wing such as a communist, but there is everything with being a left-wing proponent of violence.
Darat claims you canít separate Nazism from violence. Why is communism any different?

Quote:
If I was participating in a protest against the Irag war, and I was joined by communists, that would not make me a communist, but if I was joined by Antifa, then I would expect them to leave, and if they didn't then I would leave, because by remaining, I would be showing solidarity with them, and associating myself with them and that would make me Antifa in all but name.
Then you are essentially giving fringe groups a veto over your causes. And most people arenít going to do that.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:38 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just as I suspected, you have a different view of some of these groups and issues, Zig.

Facebook and Instagram are banning white nationalism and separatism - They will prohibit praise, support and representation of the ideologies.


I can see why you think that's just about ideology. But others (including me) think you can't segregate the ideology from the violence they support, 2nd Amendment solutions and all that.
And how is communism ultimately any different? Because it isnít.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:40 PM   #156
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Darat claims you canít separate Nazism from violence. Why is communism any different?....
Based on current events the difference is clear.

Back in the 60s when the Weather Underground was bombing various targets, then you might have a case.

Also, currently I would have no issue with FB banning PETA.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:41 PM   #157
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First, they came for the Alt-right, then they came for the far-right, next they got the Klan.......
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:49 PM   #158
Stout
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Where are you going to draw the line?

A bunch of idiots marching with Tiki torches chanting blood and soil? Free speech.

One of them driving into a crowd killing a woman? Ban that guy from FB.

That was actually a direct question.

Can speech that doesn't specifically call for violence be classed as violence ?
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:09 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That was actually a direct question.

Can speech that doesn't specifically call for violence be classed as violence ?
I thought I answered it. Yes.

Will no one free me of this meddlesome priest? Where is the violence in "free me"? That was my point, links are not necessarily direct.

Maybe you don't like FB deciding because you like the ideology and don't believe you are promoting violence. Where are you recommending the line be drawn?
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:42 PM   #160
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I wonder how many of those whining about this FB decision think SNL should be censored.
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