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Old 13th May 2019, 11:43 AM   #161
TragicMonkey
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The whale was a conspirator to launder money for Russian kleptocrats through large scale exports of caviar. Fortunately for justice some meddling kids thought there was something eggstraordinarily fishy going on.
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:06 PM   #162
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
More like plastic explosives:
Whale found dying off coast of Norway with 30 plastic bags in its stomach (The Telegraph - and it's not Hvaldimir!)

Nooooooooooooo!

https://youtu.be/8Vmnq5dBF7Y?t=120
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:12 PM   #163
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
By what metric, not expected? The articles I linked to established that the Navy was training cetaceans for things like inspecting port infrastructure and locating lost objects on the sea floor. In other words, the whales were intended to be used only in friendly seas by Navy personnel. Why would they have needed to keep the cameras they were wearing hidden? Or are you still fixated on the notion that these animals were intended to sneak into foreign ports and use the cameras to obtain secret footage? None of the articles I linked supported such a use.

You seem to miss that a spy whale, if such a creature even exists, wouldn't be trained to contact fishermen and perform tricks for them: pulling at their nets, spinning around. Why do you think they would keep the cameras hidden? For the same reason that they don't mark James Bond the way that Stephen Colbert joked about it.
How did you expect them to report back after "inspecting port infrastructure" other than with camera footage? Sign language?
Or maybe the spinning around is the key. Isn't that how bees are supposed to communicate?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:19 PM   #164
dann
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post

You don't even need dynamite! The gasses alone can do it!
Beached whale in Denmark.
Faroe Islands.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 01:24 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to miss that a spy whale, if such a creature even exists, wouldn't be trained to contact fishermen and perform tricks for them: pulling at their nets, spinning around. Why do you think they would keep the cameras hidden? For the same reason that they don't mark James Bond the way that Stephen Colbert joked about it.
How did you expect them to report back after "inspecting port infrastructure" other than with camera footage? Sign language?
Inspecting Russian port infrastructure. It's fairly easy: the animal goes down and swims along the length of an undersea piling, wreck, or other structure, or scans the ocean floor looking for an object of interest, and then returns, at which point the footage is collected and reviewed. Or, the footage is transmitted and viewed live by an operator while the animal performs the task. Please explain why you feel the camera would need to be "hidden" for any of this work.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:38 AM   #166
dann
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For that kind of work, a hypothetical camera wouldn't need to be hidden.
In the context, however, you would expect a whale trained for this purpose to go down and swim along the length of an undersea piling, wreck, or other structure, or scan the ocean floor looking for an object of interest, and then return."
That kind of behavior would make you suspect that it was trained to do that. Hvaldimir's actually observed behaviour didn't.
Even returning an Iphone isn't anywhere near that.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:17 AM   #167
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Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military. I don't understand why. The US military has been using marine mammals for decades, why wouldn't the Russians? Why SHOULDN'T the Russians?
And if it was lost from a beneficial facility for handicapped children, why haven't they come forward and asked for help getting it back.
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:21 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military.

Doesn't seem like that to me at all. To me it seems like you should read the exchanges between dann and Checkmite again after you disabled the display of images. Checkmite's avatar seems to trigger some dynamic in you that it seems to me dann is primarily arguing against.
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:46 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Dann, you seem very invested in the whale not being connected to the Russian military. I don't understand why. The US military has been using marine mammals for decades, why wouldn't the Russians? Why SHOULDN'T the Russians?

If you had followed the thread, you would know that the Russian, and before that, the Soviet Navy have been using marine mammals, too. It's no secret.
You would also know that Checkmite doesn't think that Hvaldimir was trained by the Navy. He also thinks that it's probably a 'therapy whale'. The disagreement between Checkmite and me at this point is pretty trivial: Before the former journalist from Fiskeribladet said that he recognized Hvaldimir's behavior from a therapy center for disadvantaged children, would you then have had good reason to interpret it as being a whale trained by the Russian Navy or not? Checkmite says that there was good reason for the interpretation that was spread to the world by most leading news media. I say that that the news outlets were (and still are) prejudiced towards telling stories about a defected Russian spy whale. Try googling it for yourself if you don't believe me. And, Checkmite, correct me if you think that my presentation of our disagreement is wrong.

Quote:
And if it was lost from a beneficial facility for handicapped children, why haven't they come forward and asked for help getting it back.

Several theories have been suggested; see my many posts and quotations in the thread.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 09:51 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Doesn't seem like that to me at all. To me it seems like you should read the exchanges between dann and Checkmite again after you disabled the display of images. Checkmite's avatar seems to trigger some dynamic in you that it seems to me dann is primarily arguing against.

Checkmite is a pretty cool-headed guy. Our major disagreements have been in this thread and the one about the Cuban crickets, which may not be a coincidence, considering the Star-spangled banner, but still ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:41 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Checkmite is a pretty cool-headed guy. Our major disagreements have been in this thread and the one about the Cuban crickets, which may not be a coincidence, considering the Star-spangled banner, but still ....

Yeah I don't think I had much interaction with Checkmite but I didn't mean to bash the avatar, just thought it could have been a trigger of a certain "us versus them" dynamic that seems to have led to Trebuchet's misunderstanding of your conversation.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:35 AM   #172
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I find DanishDynamite's avatar odd.
The name is from a song that's very popular among Danish soccer fans: We're red, we're white, we're Danish dynamite. The very unfortunate (and unintentional, I hope) cutting of the first two-three words makes it sound not only nationalist but also racist:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


But there's news from Norway!

Quote:
– Vi har festet kamera og andre instrumenter til hvalen for å undersøke hva han gjør i neddykket tilstand, forteller Richard Karoliussen.
(...)
– Resultatene av disse målingene blir gjort i USA, og da vil vi få rede på om bevegelsene til hvalen under vann er forenlig med hvordan en hvithval beveger seg når den fanger mat.
Hvalekspert skal vurdere «Hvaldimir»: – Skjebnen er usikker (NRK.no, May 13, 2019)

My translation:
Quote:
– We have attached a camera and other instruments to the whale to find out what he does when he dives, Richar Karoliussen says.
(...)
– The results of these measurements will be done in the USA, and then we will find out if the way that the whale moves when diving is compatible with the way a beluga whale moves when it is catching prey.
[i][url=https://www.nrk.no/finnmark/hvalekspert-fra-spania-skal-vurdere-_hvaldimir__-_-skjebnen-er-usikker-1.14548791]Hvalekspert skal vurdere «Hvaldimir»: – Skjebnen er usikker
Whale expert will examine "Hvaldimir": - His fate is uncertain
I know that this sounds a little odd: "– The results of these measurements will be done in the USA," but it sounds odd in Norwegian, too. It was probably meant to say: - The analysis of these measurements ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #173
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And then there's CJ Hopkins pretending like this is some kind of joke or something

Originally Posted by CJ Hopkins
[...] And then there’s the evil Russian spywhale, which the disinformationists want us to believe is just a harmless “therapy Beluga” for kids, but which has clearly been strapped with some sort of monstrous, mind-controlling apparatus that enables the Kremlin to remotely implant a host of dangerous “populist” ideas in the brains of defenseless Norwegian fishermen, weaponizing them into a horde of neo-Odinist Viking berserkers who will scream down out of Scandinavia and storm the EU Parliament in Brussels smelling of akvavit and fermented shark.

These Putin-Nazi disinformationists are not to be confused with the corporate media, or other sources of real information, like SafeGuard Cyber, Global Security Review, Bellingcat, Integrity Initiative, The Atlantic Council, E.U. East StratCom Task Force, Foreign Policy Research Institute, and countless other companies, foundations, think tanks, and intelligence agency fronts. These are legitimate information providers, who would never try to disinform the public to serve any sort of corporatist agenda, or to generate any kind of mass hysteria over “terrorists,” “Russians,” “fascists,” or “populists.” [...]
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:59 AM   #174
dann
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Talkshow Queen Ellen Degeneres Showed 'Hvaldimir' to Millions of Viewers (NRK.no, May 21-22, 2019)

Apparently, she mentioned neither spying nor therapy.
And they warn people not to feed their children to the whale!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th May 2019, 06:23 AM   #175
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In post 149, I already mentioned [i]the threat that nobody wants to talk about,' i.e. the reason for the paranoia in Northern Norway. There’s more news about this a few minutes ago. My translation:

Quote:
On Wednesday in a press briefing, Russian authorities announced that they will retaliate if the Globus II radar in Vardø is upgraded.
"There is every reason to believe that the radar will monitor Russian territory and become part of the United States global missile defense network," said Maria Zakharova, spokesperson for the Russian Foreign Ministry.
Vardø is just 28 kilometers from Russia, and close to the most important military facilities in the country on the Kola Peninsula. At least twice, Russia simulated airstrikes against radar facilities in Vardø.
Russian threatens with retaliation (NRK.no, May 24, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2019, 08:37 AM   #176
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This weekend, they feared that Hvaldimir was dying, but apparently it got better:
The beluga whale 'Hvaldimir' almost didn't survive the weekend (NRK.no, May 27, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:31 PM   #177
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Update: satellite pictures are said to show the pod of beluga spy whales from which Hvladimir is said to have escaped and 'defected' to Norway.

Quote:
Russia moved a pod of beluga whales to a secret Arctic base around the time one of its 'spy animals defected to Norway', satellite images suggest.

A beluga was found wearing a harness marked 'equipment of St Petersburg' last month off the coast of Norway - and was refusing to stray far from the harbour.

The sea creature, which had a harness for a camera, was hanging around the port performing tricks for locals in return for food, with many residents joking he had 'defected'.
<snip>

Quote:
It has now been revealed Russia's navy may have taken another pod of whales to the Olenya Guba base, in a bay of the Barents Sea, in the north west of the country around the time of the incident.

The pictures, taken from space in April, were released by defence analysts at H I Sutton and show two new pens along a pier in the base - with one appearing to contain a white beluga.
You can see the satellite pictures here.
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Old 28th May 2019, 11:06 PM   #178
dann
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Yes, the Daily Mail probably wouldn't know (and wouldn't want to know) about the journalist from Fiskeribladet and his story about where Hvaldimir came from since it would ruin the Russian-spy-whale story. The pod story is much better.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2019, 06:47 AM   #179
dann
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Quote:
Siden dag én har forsker ved Institutt for arktisk og marin biologi på Universitet i Tromsø, Audun Rikardsen, vært fast bestemt på at hvalen har tilknytning til militæret i Russland.
Nye satellittbilder kan avsløre hvor «Hvaldimir» kommer fra - Ifølge nye kilder tyder svært mye på at hvithvalen «Hvaldimir» har rømt fra det russiske forsvaret. (NRK.no, May 29-31, 2019)

My translation:
Quote:
Since day one, researcher at the Institute of Arctic and Marine Biology at the University of Tromsø, Audun Rikardsen, has been convinced that the whale is affiliated with the Russian military.
New satellite photos may reveal where "Hvaldimir" comes from - According to new sources, many things indicate that the beluga whale "Hvaldimir" escaped from the Russian military

Unfortunately, his preconceptions also appear to make him ignore many of the arguments from the former journalist at Fiskeribladet, for instance when he offered a very different explanation for the harness that the whale was wearing when it first appeared.
But read the whole article. (However, the Google translation of Poljarnij --> Poland is weird!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 2nd June 2019 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 8th June 2019, 01:05 AM   #180
dann
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Fundraising for Hvaldimir on facebook.

Volunteers have spent 150,000 Norwegian kroner for Hvaldimir to be well (NRK.no, June 6, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th June 2019, 02:05 AM   #181
dann
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Norway's favourite pet impressed Erna Solberg with cool tricks (NRK.no, June 19, 2019). Erna Solberg (Wikipedia)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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