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Old 4th June 2019, 02:38 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Camden Town is within the London Borough of Camden, but it's not the same thing. That's what GlennB was saying.
Yeah, but its a technicality. The whole borough is only 8 square miles in size. The idea that Camden Town would be a "no go area" is just preposterous.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:01 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
the WHO is a great source to start to learn about FGM
I didn't learn much about it from the lyrics of "My Generation" and "Pinball Wizard"

/rather inappropriate
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:47 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The idea that Camden Town would be a "no go area" is just preposterous.
Yes, it always was.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:13 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...Says actor and writer John Cleese, best known as Basil Fawlty and Monty Python stalwart.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-48451384


Is there such a thing as an 'English city' or is Cleese using code for , 'too many immigrants'. Or does he have a fair point and is being censored?
While England has always had immigration, with many cities boasting very old communities of Chinese and Caribbean families, such as Liverpool, it is also true that places such as Birmingham have changed dramatically since the 60's onward til now.

Whether it's good or bad doesn't really interest me, but I can understand when people from older generations make comments like Cleese's, as they obviously do remember a different time.

Regarding Birmingham, Ozzy Osbourne made a comment on a radio show recently much to the same effect, but it wasn't necessarily negative, it was just an observation of his time spent in Birmingham as a younger man versus the times he's visited since moving to the USA.

Whether the country is less English or not isn't really important, but the country has definitely changed since Cleese was a young man. I'm not against immigration, but it has changed the country, for better and worse.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:18 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
London reminds me of New York. Vibrant, entertaining, lively, good food ... not necessarily the most English of places.
Liverpool is very much the same and has always reminded me of New York. Multiculturalism has benefited many big cities in this way.

No doubt, though, people who remember an older time who may have lived away for a number of years would notice a change in places such as London in 2019. Again, I don't think it's a bad thing, it's just an observation, I've no interest in whether Cleese is racist or not.
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Old 4th June 2019, 05:47 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I understand the concept of "dog whistling" but in this case I don't think it is the case. Cleese is definitely not stupid so I would expect he knows FGM is not an Islamic practice, that you find it in different cultures with different majority religions so he was in fact avoiding the "common" insinuation that Islam is the cause of FGM.
It's really impossible to discern Cleese's intent here, because his statement is very broad and more an observation without any obvious conclusion or judgement.

That being said, the virulent xenophobes love to tout the "cultural genocide" tropes and Cleese probably knew this would be red meat for those types. Not sure if his goal was to give the slightest of nods to these types while still keeping plausible deniability, but this is how it would be done.

The context is important. Twitter is a platform for public discourse. Some older man waxing nostalgic for city of his youth would be perfectly innocent among friends or other private settings, but broadcasting such vague sentiments in the context of such intense debate seems a bit more suspect to me.

That being said, I don't know what the best response would be, other than to just ignore this "vaguebooking" like any other. Plausible deniability prevents are serious probing of such statements.
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:35 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Which, as Paul Joseph Watson has pointed out, ....
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Old 4th June 2019, 07:55 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some older man waxing nostalgic for city of his youth would be perfectly innocent among friends or other private settings, but broadcasting such vague sentiments in the context of such intense debate seems a bit more suspect to me.
It does have the ring of "I remember when all this was fields".
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:15 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Well, the numbers of vacuous, virtue-signalling twats "expected" to rock up in in central London tomorrow and **** up everyone else's day depends on who's **** it's pulled from. But I guess there are enough of these jobless ne're-do-wells with literally nothing better to do and zero capacity for independent thought to swell the numbers for the same media organs that form their "opinions" for them.
You're referring to the MAGA's, right?
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:21 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The genetic and cultural inheritance of thousands of years thrown away, safety and cohesion destroyed forever - but hey, we had tacos and curry!
Ever was thus, the sad epitaph:

Here lies the body of neanderthal man
who lived in cave in his long lifespan
had sex a lot
but children not
And was took over by Homo sap-ien.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
What area is that? Camden the borough takes in Hampstead Heath to Holborn, I'm surprised its population isn't larger than that (but most of the time it will be). Camden proper a lot smaller not even all of NW1.

Anyway that survey forgot "35% tourists who have been told the market's good"
You're right about the A5 but there is no such place as 'Camden' - it is just a made up name, to describe the newly formed borough after St Pancras was tacked onto Holborn.

Camden proper is the entire borough of Holborn & St Pancras (the political ward).

If you mean Camden Town, that is 49.99% Irish, 49.99% Cypriot and 0.02% Amy Winehouse. <g>.
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Old 4th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #132
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Was it ever clarified what makes a city English?
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:10 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you mean Camden Town, that is 49.99% Irish, 49.99% Cypriot and 0.02% Amy Winehouse. <g>.
Londoners don't typically call it that, that's more visitors and Suggs out of Madness. It's Camden Market, Camden Lock, Camden 'Igh Street and even Camden bleedin' Sainsbury's.

Incidentally someone at the council had the bright idea of putting in some retro "Borough of St Pancras" street signs in several streets in the relevant neighbourhood which looks fake and daft to me. In fact the borough seems to have changed it's street sign branding more than most others there are at least four variations (the most recent one subsequent to the silly "St Pancras" one, is the best IMO). Islington (where I live) has done it a couple of times as well and the latest version is tacky plastic. The City and Westminster have got their acts far more together on this.

(Enfield and Brent have in the not too distant past started putting post code districts like "EN2" and "HA9" on their signs. I mean who cares??)

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Old 4th June 2019, 11:10 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They tend to congregate in their own communities.

Sitting in a fast food restaurant in Seven Sisters Road Holloway Road end t'other day - the first time in years - I noticed that there were large numbers of scarf/hijab wearing folk going by.

You didn't see that not so long ago.
Cool confirmation bias, sis.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:14 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Why not?
Few options, and little interest amongst the local population. What outlets there are seem more geared - and geographically placed - to cater for the tourists.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:17 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In London - at least around Covent Garden and Leicester Sq - Mexican restaurants are posh.
Like I said... tourists...
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:27 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some older man waxing nostalgic for city of his youth...
It depends how you define that. Cleese grew up in the West Country, and in particular went to a private school in Bristol, a English city more culpable than most in the slave trade.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:31 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
(Enfield and Brent have in the not too distant past started putting post code districts like "EN2" and "HA9" on their signs. I mean who cares??)
Postcodes on signs have been a thing all over London for a very long time. You can still see some old cast iron ones bolted to the side of buildings with the original letter-only codes. Given the replication of street names in the capital, and that long roads tend to span postal districts, it has obvious utility.

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Old 4th June 2019, 11:48 PM   #139
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There are a few remnant "NE" ones still in situ in a few places in Clapton and Stoke Newington (NE was abolished before the numbers were added and IIRC given to Newcastle, S was passed to Sheffield). At Kings Cross where some new streets have been built behind the station the sub district "N1C" has been added to the signs (that's Camden's doing again). I don't think that is done anywhere else (for example "EC1R" which is me or "W1P" "SW1W" etc)

The numbers on signs outside the London post town boundary is rather rare and is something a few councils that straddle both have done (Hounslow, Brent, Enfield). Ealing helpfully adds "Northolt" or "Perivale" to street signs to help with the postal address, but I think Perivale actually comes under "Greenford" so they may have that wrong.

A few signs in Manchester have a simple 1 or 20 on them to denote M1 or M20 but hardly any (and my fieldwork on that is 25 years old).

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Old 5th June 2019, 12:03 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Was it ever clarified what makes a city English?
It depends on whether you're referring to a globally accepted definition of what makes a city English - in which case no - or whether you're just referring to what John Cleese may have been referring to - in which case although he didn't publish an 'n' point checklist of what he personally thinks constitutes an English city, his comments in recent years give a good (though not infallible) indication.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:07 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Was it ever clarified what makes a city English?
Yes, I think we agreed the 2 key criteria for an English city were (1) being in England and (2) being a city
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:08 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It depends how you define that. Cleese grew up in the West Country, and in particular went to a private school in Bristol, a English city more culpable than most in the slave trade.
I did wonder.
I mean, after that he went to Cambridge.
So we're into the early 60s before he worked in London, at which point I would hesitate calling him a youth.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:23 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes, I think we agreed the 2 key criteria for an English city were (1) being in England and (2) being a city
Yes, I agree, but remember, a certain subset of people would insist that Edinburgh is in England. I'm sure you know which.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:06 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It depends how you define that. Cleese grew up in the West Country, and in particular went to a private school in Bristol, a English city more culpable than most in the slave trade.
I think it's common to be nostalgia to paint history in rosy hues, even in cases where the past conditions were objectively worse. Plenty of older folks around Boston love to lament the transformation of South Boston from an impoverished neighborhood that was practically sovereign property of organized crime into a rapidly gentrifying, affluent neighborhood. Most of these people know that it's good that Whitey Bulger isn't running the neighborhood anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if many old timers don't remember the bad old days fondly. Many people are fond of memories of their youth, even if at the time it was terrible.

That being said, I don't get this kind of vibe from Cleese's twitter post. Seems more of a underhand pitch of the old "cultural genocide" dreck we see all over the internet.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:58 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Yes, I agree, but remember, a certain subset of people would insist that Edinburgh is in England. I'm sure you know which.
Rubbish, can't believe anyone could mistake where the capital of The Northern Ireland is!
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:38 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
There are a few remnant "NE" ones still in situ in a few places in Clapton and Stoke Newington (NE was abolished before the numbers were added and IIRC given to Newcastle, S was passed to Sheffield). At Kings Cross where some new streets have been built behind the station the sub district "N1C" has been added to the signs (that's Camden's doing again). I don't think that is done anywhere else (for example "EC1R" which is me or "W1P" "SW1W" etc)
It's certainly done in Lewisham, Wandsworth, and Lambeth. On my street there's an old cast iron sign with "SE" on a house on one side of the street (hasn't been painted for years - if it was ours, I'd do it!), and a modern pavement-level sign with "SE13" on the other side. I would assume London boroughs not doing it would be the exception, rather than the norm.

Quote:
The numbers on signs outside the London post town boundary is rather rare and is something a few councils that straddle both have done (Hounslow, Brent, Enfield). Ealing helpfully adds "Northolt" or "Perivale" to street signs to help with the postal address, but I think Perivale actually comes under "Greenford" so they may have that wrong.

A few signs in Manchester have a simple 1 or 20 on them to denote M1 or M20 but hardly any (and my fieldwork on that is 25 years old).
Leeds does just the number thing, but Hull nothing at all, so I'm sure it's a size thing.

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Old 5th June 2019, 11:38 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's certainly done in Lewisham, Wandsworth, and Lambeth.
Those boroughs don't have any post districts that are subdivided with an additional letter. What I mean is for example "EC1" is actually six districts with the letters A M N R V and Y added on respectively but you only see EC1 on signs (some of which are Islington, some City of London and a few Camden). The same subdivision happens for the other three EC areas and the WC ones and W1 and SW1 and since not so long ago also for E1 and N1 (but only for the redeveloped areas at Wapping and "Kings Cross Central"). All other districts don't have the extra letter.

And Camden council opted to put "N1C" on the signs in the small new neighbourhood recently carved out of N1 but nowhere else does that happen.

Yes the vast majority of London street signs have the post district on them but much more rarely in areas that don't actually have London post address at all (Like Bromley or Croydon or Kingston. Actually Kingston council does do it a lot if I remember right). (Lambeth Wandsworth and Lewisham also don't have any territory outside of SE and SW)

(This is really micro trivia)

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Old 5th June 2019, 12:47 PM   #148
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John Cleese is referring to the lack of bowler hats and brollies these days.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:51 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
There are a few remnant "NE" ones still in situ in a few places in Clapton and Stoke Newington (NE was abolished before the numbers were added and IIRC given to Newcastle, S was passed to Sheffield). At Kings Cross where some new streets have been built behind the station the sub district "N1C" has been added to the signs (that's Camden's doing again). I don't think that is done anywhere else (for example "EC1R" which is me or "W1P" "SW1W" etc)

The numbers on signs outside the London post town boundary is rather rare and is something a few councils that straddle both have done (Hounslow, Brent, Enfield). Ealing helpfully adds "Northolt" or "Perivale" to street signs to help with the postal address, but I think Perivale actually comes under "Greenford" so they may have that wrong.

A few signs in Manchester have a simple 1 or 20 on them to denote M1 or M20 but hardly any (and my fieldwork on that is 25 years old).
I expect that's because King's Cross is a recent development and its paths and roads not found on many old A-Z's or satnavs.
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Old 5th June 2019, 12:58 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Those boroughs don't have any post districts that are subdivided with an additional letter. What I mean is for example "EC1" is actually six districts with the letters A M N R V and Y added on respectively but you only see EC1 on signs (some of which are Islington, some City of London and a few Camden). The same subdivision happens for the other three EC areas and the WC ones and W1 and SW1 and since not so long ago also for E1 and N1 (but only for the redeveloped areas at Wapping and "Kings Cross Central"). All other districts don't have the extra letter.

And Camden council opted to put "N1C" on the signs in the small new neighbourhood recently carved out of N1 but nowhere else does that happen.

Yes the vast majority of London street signs have the post district on them but much more rarely in areas that don't actually have London post address at all (Like Bromley or Croydon or Kingston. Actually Kingston council does do it a lot if I remember right). (Lambeth Wandsworth and Lewisham also don't have any territory outside of SE and SW)

(This is really micro trivia)
N1C seems to denote a 'desirable neighbourhood' where ordinary-looking one-bed flats are on sale 'starting from £1.1m'. I went to an Irani Indian restaurant (Dishoom) t'other day, which is housed in a disused train shed, and looked it. The acoustics were terrible and the food grossly over priced, all for the privilege of eating in N1C. Oh, and we were forced to queue outside for 45 minutes as they 'don't do reservations'.

...And King's Cross still looks rundown as it always has done.
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Old 5th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #151
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After it was a train shed it was Bagley's Warehouse (multi room nightclub) The Cross was almost next to it. I had a few nights out there a hundred years ago.

I think KX has cleaned up a lot. You might have forgotten that the train station had a "temporary" shack type front for decades, now there's that posh square thingy. They actually dismantled the gas holders and reassembled them aroud some designer cylindrical apartments (really really daft). As for St Pancras that would have gone the way of Broad Street had it not been for corrupt billions (probably stolen from Scotland) and the CTRL.

Only that bit around The Big Chill House still leaves something to be desired.

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Old 5th June 2019, 02:26 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
After it was a train shed it was Bagley's Warehouse (multi room nightclub) The Cross was almost next to it. I had a few nights out there a hundred years ago.

I think KX has cleaned up a lot. You might have forgotten that the train station had a "temporary" shack type front for decades, now there's that posh square thingy. They actually dismantled the gas holders and reassembled them aroud some designer cylindrical apartments (really really daft). As for St Pancras that would have gone the way of Broad Street had it not been for corrupt billions (probably stolen from Scotland) and the CTRL.

Only that bit around The Big Chill House still leaves something to be desired.
I have never liked King's Cross. It has an air of desolation despite all the new developments going up. Iirc the entire area at the back of KX was once a no-go area (called 'Agar Town') full of cutthroats, prostitutes, alchoholics and the dregs of society. Nearby Euston appears to have been a mass grave yard of >50K bodies, dug up because of H2 crosslink rail.

No wonder the area around KX is creepy and depressing. Smithfield has the same air of desolation, not helped by discovering two hundred martyrs were burnt at the stake there.

I do believe there are places of natural scenic beauty - in London Hampstead Heath and Kew Gardens, for example - but alas, Kings Cross never will be.


Quote:
Agar Town, consisting of low-quality housing for poor people, built of the lowest quality materials on 21 year leases, with no street lighting, cleaning or sewerage, and a population of laborers living in houses they built for themselves, was generally considered a slum.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar_Town
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:25 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
I doubt you'd find its equivalent anywhere else!
A bit like Chiken Tikka Masalla.


There's a Man vs Food where he attempts to eat a (iirc) phal in an Indian restaurant in (again iirc) New York, in amoung all the talk of Indians coming to America the host doesn't notice the London Tube maps and pictures of red phone boxes and London Buses on the walls!

My first experience of a restaurant curry was with a friend of Bangladeshi parentage when I was at university. He called the waiter over after one bite and said "What are you doing man? This is a bastard hot curry, you don't serve them to us, they're for the English!"
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Old 5th June 2019, 11:59 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I do believe there are places of natural scenic beauty - in London Hampstead Heath and Kew Gardens
Your fave places in London are places where you can kind of feel you're not really in London any more? OK.

I heart gasholders. Not what they've done with them at KXC although at least that means the structures will stay there for a long while. Elsewhere they are being pulled down and the sites decontaminated and reused. We have already lost the one at Edmonton (IKEA), Nine Elms (Battersea Power Station), Southall (the one that used to tell planes that Heathrow was 4 miles). Still standing are a couple at Bethnal Green, North Kensington (both on the canal), and IIRC a whole bunch at Bromley-by-Bow Twelvetrees Crescent, and one at Poplar. Will miss them when they are gone they are strangely beautiful. (I go running along the canal to say hi)
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:52 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Your fave places in London are places where you can kind of feel you're not really in London any more? OK.

I heart gasholders. Not what they've done with them at KXC although at least that means the structures will stay there for a long while. Elsewhere they are being pulled down and the sites decontaminated and reused. We have already lost the one at Edmonton (IKEA), Nine Elms (Battersea Power Station), Southall (the one that used to tell planes that Heathrow was 4 miles). Still standing are a couple at Bethnal Green, North Kensington (both on the canal), and IIRC a whole bunch at Bromley-by-Bow Twelvetrees Crescent, and one at Poplar. Will miss them when they are gone they are strangely beautiful. (I go running along the canal to say hi)
I passed somr the other day walking from Victoria Park west along the canal, Cambridge Heath? They were empty we were wondering a) whether they were still used and b) if they are not where is the gas stored and how do they regulate supply?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:07 AM   #156
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That's the Bethnal Green holder station, no they are not used they are redundant now, there's something of a local fight to preserve those but since the value of residential sites along the canal is rather high I doubt it will succeed indefinitely.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:19 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
That's the Bethnal Green holder station, no they are not used they are redundant now, there's something of a local fight to preserve those but since the value of residential sites along the canal is rather high I doubt it will succeed indefinitely.
That's the trouble with them.
They're massive, and it's not as if you can convert them into anything else.
In essence they'd be huge art installations.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:12 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Those boroughs don't have any post districts that are subdivided with an additional letter. What I mean is for example "EC1" is actually six districts with the letters A M N R V and Y added on respectively but you only see EC1 on signs (some of which are Islington, some City of London and a few Camden). The same subdivision happens for the other three EC areas and the WC ones and W1 and SW1 and since not so long ago also for E1 and N1 (but only for the redeveloped areas at Wapping and "Kings Cross Central"). All other districts don't have the extra letter.

And Camden council opted to put "N1C" on the signs in the small new neighbourhood recently carved out of N1 but nowhere else does that happen.
Oh yeah, I see what you meant now. D'oh!
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:18 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I think KX has cleaned up a lot. You might have forgotten that the train station had a "temporary" shack type front for decades, now there's that posh square thingy.
The funny thing is that there was once a nice Leslie Green-designed Underground station building in front of the mainline station, that would no doubt be listed now, had it not been demolished in the 1960s (visible top photo here).

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Old 6th June 2019, 04:21 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There's a Man vs Food where he attempts to eat a (iirc) phal in an Indian restaurant in (again iirc) New York, in amoung all the talk of Indians coming to America the host doesn't notice the London Tube maps and pictures of red phone boxes and London Buses on the walls!

My first experience of a restaurant curry was with a friend of Bangladeshi parentage when I was at university. He called the waiter over after one bite and said "What are you doing man? This is a bastard hot curry, you don't serve them to us, they're for the English!"
We once had the blandest takeaway ever in Tunbridge Wells. Only afterwards did we read on Trip Advisor the comments by people saying that, when they'd complained about the food, they were told by the staff that they had had to tone it down after too many complaints by the locals. Gah!

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