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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 10th June 2019, 07:58 PM   #361
DragonLady
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Quote:
Are you distinguishing "euthanasia" from "physician assisted suicide?"

Yes; albeit with some caveats. I'm pretty much on board with giving enough painkillers to those who are terminal to control or eliminate pain, even if it means it causes one to stop breathing, if that person understands and agrees. I'm okay with a patient choosing to stop accepting care, even to the extent of choosing to stop eating or drinking. I'm okay with removing life support machinery with the family's approval, and in extreme cases, I might be able to accept a doctor leaving a vial of something at the bedside the patient might choose to imbibe, knowing the result will be fatal.

On the other hand, Dr. Kevorkian (?) and his suicide van was far, far too far beyond the pale.

I do think the suicide roller coaster is a good idea for a horror movie, but that's the only place it belongs.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:02 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
Does anyone know if there's an English version of Noa Pothovenís book, Winnen of Leren? Print or ebook like Amazon's Kindle.

I recently emailed, and filled out an online form, for Boekscout, the publisher. I haven't heard from them yet, they might need time to respond. I wrote to them in English, and included a Dutch translation according to google translate. Hopefully I'll hear from them, but I wondered if anyone on the Forum knows if there's an English version of Noa's book?

Winnen of Leren link on boekscout.nl
I donít think thereís an e-book.
You could try to order through www.bol.com. In the Netherlands publishers usually donít deliver directly to a customer, but through book agencies, like bol.com
I donít know if they deliver abroad though.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:42 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Sure, this is the ideal but, unfortunately, can never be guaranteed. My own experiences suggest it is likely the minority situation in the USA, with most people obtaining some, but often quite sub-optimal end-of-life support. I experienced my own father going through intense pain and suffering despite his care at a top hospital and access to powerful pain-killers. Related to the location of his tumor. It depends on the nature of the disease (as well as access to the right hospice care, etc.). In fact in the USA the recent crack down on opioid use appears to have made legitimate pain control even more difficult. The drugs are fearfully tightly controlled and, worse still, physicians recognize that they are constantly under the eyes of law enforcement and can lose their careers, their reputations, or even be imprisoned, should the use of pain relievers in their practices be questioned. They have become very conservative in prescribing them (resulting in more distress for the patients), or simply have gotten out of this aspect of heath care entirely.

Would I ever invoke physician-assisted suicide if I was experiencing the type of situation you narrate? Of course not (although I would prefer to be at a sea-side resort or at home vs an institutional setting). But again, the option of physician-assisted suicide is important to me if such a "good death" proves impossible.
It's not just opoids. There are all kinds of sophisticated drugs at differing levels and targetted at different areas.

The problem in the US is in the health care system where people are terrified of falling ill or leave it too late before seeking treatment because of the fear of the cost of treatment which may not be entirely covered by their insurance.

My relative in Finland had his own comfortable room which was capped at Ä700 pa, which applies to everyone, regardless of ability to pay. So he felt free to seek intensive treatment without any fear it would eat into his (very sizeable) savings. The cancer healthcare there is second to none, especially in terms of pain control.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:48 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Yes; albeit with some caveats. I'm pretty much on board with giving enough painkillers to those who are terminal to control or eliminate pain, even if it means it causes one to stop breathing, if that person understands and agrees. I'm okay with a patient choosing to stop accepting care, even to the extent of choosing to stop eating or drinking. I'm okay with removing life support machinery with the family's approval, and in extreme cases, I might be able to accept a doctor leaving a vial of something at the bedside the patient might choose to imbibe, knowing the result will be fatal.

On the other hand, Dr. Kevorkian (?) and his suicide van was far, far too far beyond the pale.

I do think the suicide roller coaster is a good idea for a horror movie, but that's the only place it belongs.

I've known someone who was clear-minded, very aged and who expressed a wish to no longer wanting to live. It was tacitly acknowledged by the nursing staff that they were not to apply resuscitation when her time came and she died with dignity and without 'assistance' as it were.

It would not have been fair on the hardworking nurses or doctors to expect them to actually supply end of life drugs although on the other hand they had enough wisdom to know when not to intervene.

Win-win.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:40 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
oh nice. could you come visit me and tell my depression it should have gone into remission by now (actually a long time ago)?
Indeed. Despite the efforts at education some people still don't comprehend mental illnesses.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:33 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Does that actually happen anywhere?
In my experience IVs tend to be on a portable stand that you can take with you, for instance if you need the toilet. Or need to go outside to have a fag etc.
Sure, when people keep pulling the IV, Catheter, NG tube ext out they are restrained. You see it a lot with dementia patients. If she was compliant with feeding these tubes of course she would not need them. When dealing with a non complaint patient you have to do things rather differently.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:42 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Yeah my naivety is showing again, because that

should never ever happen
It does with great regularity. For example a high percentage of ICU patients are in physical or chemical restraints, which would be another option dope her so she is insensate and can't object to being force fed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...raints/375647/
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:29 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Does that actually happen anywhere?
In my experience IVs tend to be on a portable stand that you can take with you, for instance if you need the toilet. Or need to go outside to have a fag etc.
As noted upthread, being restrained when on IVs it is quite common, particularly for people who are temporarily fuddled in their thinking, such as coming out of of anesthesia or very sick in an ICU. It is instinctive in these states to want to swap away the awkward and sometimes painful IVs. I think this is a simple necessity and I have no problem with it: the patient would understand and approve of the IV if they were fully conscious. More questionable in my mind is when it is used (not uncommonly) for emotionally or mentally disturbed patients who are clear thinking in their own view, even though many in society may disagree. They are fully conscious but do not at the moment want the IV or the treatment. Perhaps I can accept this type of imposition of our views on someone else's if it is for an acute situation (due to a medication or an acute personal problem), a very defined and limited time. Perhaps a day or so? To get them over a crisis back to a more stable mental and emotional state in which they are able to better make decisions? But I don't know how frequent long term restraints are (e.g. dementia patients).

Last edited by Giordano; 11th June 2019 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 13th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #369
Ernie M
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
I donít think thereís an e-book.
You could try to order through www.bol.com. In the Netherlands publishers usually donít deliver directly to a customer, but through book agencies, like bol.com
I donít know if they deliver abroad though.
Thank you, erwinl. I ended up ordering a copy online, direct from Boekscout, the publisher of Noa Pothovenís book, Winnen of Leren (Winning or Learning).

I was hoping to get an English translation, but the publisher emailed me and said an English translation is not available at this moment. They don't know whether an English version will be published in the future.

Boekscout was nice and polite and helped with my order. They ship internationally. Their website is really good, and I was able to use google translate to navigate around it.

I'll have to use google translate or find someone who will (translate Dutch) read to me. I think it's going to take me a long, long, long, time to read Noa's book. I hope I don't lose much in the translation.
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