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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 5th June 2019, 02:49 PM   #201
a_unique_person
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
As already noted, the reports of euthanasia were inaccurate. More details of what did happen and how it was misreported here - https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...d-died-at-home
So it's Fake News. I was wondering what further details would come out.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:52 PM   #202
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This was very very wrong. The Netherlands went overboard when they killed this girl.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Take her away from her environment. Maybe a Meditteranean cruise, attain a place at a University with a good possibility of making new friends and taking up an interesting course of study.

At seventeen, all she had ever done was live at home.
Yes, what you said. SOmething anything rather than help some young attractive girl take her own life.
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Old 5th June 2019, 02:58 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Yes, what you said. SOmething anything rather than help some young attractive girl take her own life.
It's always a tragedy when some pretty young thing deprives me of the opportunity to get my whacks in.

I shoulda done like that other guy, and forced the issue when I had the chance.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:00 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Thanks, you two. I had a feeling about this one. Something just didn't add up. I'll never trust the OP again.
After a recent comment saying that people who could die from touching nuts are perhaps "meant to die" ... while speaking to a father whose child has a virulent nut allergy ... in the community section of this website ... yeah, that's an astonishingly malevolent comment, so much so that I surmised the poster's sole motivation was to inflict pain. Oh, and look "edgy" while doing it. I'm not big on ignoring people or anything like that, but IMO a line has been crossed and I'm not sure what the remedy would be.

There are Dutch-speaking ISF members who maybe should have been enlisted to debunk this. But expecting every European to step in when a story has been manipulated is probably not fair. Still, I would certainly welcome their input. It doesn't make the discussion any less interesting when we pause to get the facts right.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:03 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
This was very very wrong. The Netherlands went overboard when they killed this girl.
Are you immune to factual follow up? What did the Netherlands do to kill her?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:05 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
This was very very wrong. The Netherlands went overboard when they killed this girl.
bad bad netherlands
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.
I don't think this claim can stand without more data ... a way to quantify the "seriousness" of an effort to rule out "cries for help."
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:12 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's always a tragedy when some pretty young thing deprives me of the opportunity to get my whacks in.
If she'd been ugly it would have been more understandable? I wasn't sure what to make of the "attractive" comment.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I shoulda done like that other guy, and forced the issue when I had the chance.
I have no idea who you're talking about here.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:15 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... sufferers and their loved ones are grateful for any extra time together.
which obvisously means that everyone else wants some time together, no other options. you and others -- stop being pathetic with this US-crap style of condolence towards a person you have never even met.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:19 PM   #211
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I can't stand this, really. all those preaching nice future and what not -- have you suffered at least the same?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:24 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If she'd been ugly it would have been more understandable? I wasn't sure what to make of the "attractive" comment.



I have no idea who you're talking about here.
Rape, Minoosh. I'm talking about rape.

Last edited by theprestige; 5th June 2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:25 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
For starters, by committing her to a psychiatric hospital, where she would receive medication and psychotherapy. You might not be able to entirely prevent suicide by someone who is truly determined to die, but you can sure make it much harder and much less appealing.
so you assume she was half-wit and couldn't function without 'medication and psychotherapy'? why? because many others don't do euthanasia (or smth else similar, as it seems from recent posts)
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:27 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you not have any kids? Teenagers do not make the best decisions. They still need parenting.
DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY KIDS. who can be so heartless to say something against it. DO YOU HAVE PARROTS?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:31 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
But we do know that at 17 the brain is still developing. There is good evidence that people do 'grow out of' adolescent behavioural disorders. The majority of people with anorexia will recover given time.

On the other hand I am sure the people concerned did do due diligence before progressing with the individuals request.
Oh honey, sufffer some more years, maybe ten. your brain is still developing. I read it on facebook ;P
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:31 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't think this claim can stand without more data ... a way to quantify the "seriousness" of an effort to rule out "cries for help."
Data relating to that has already been posted i think.

Though thinking about it, I know people who have attempted suicide, failed, then admitted it was a cry for help.

I have never met any people who have attempted suicide, succeeded, then admitted it was a cry for help.
s
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:33 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess until someone manages to kill themselves my some other means that makes us feel less *icky* than them being allowed to choose euthanasia.

Of course that method may cause the person far more pain and suffering and, depending on how they choose to kill themselves, may have a greater impact on a larger number of people but the key thing is that we shouldn't feel uncomfortable.

I hear getting drunk and then getting out in the cold is quite nice. won't work in many regions though
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:41 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is a straw man as well. No one is making this argument. Not even close.
could you please stop mentioning strawman all the time if you have no other arguments. I have no intentions of making strawmen. i am not directing them at you particularly, if you feel like that
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:46 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
could you please stop mentioning strawman all the time if you have no other arguments. I have no intentions of making strawmen. i am not directing them at you particularly, if you feel like that
Have you read this thread through from the time you posted yesterday till today? There's been some surprising developments.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:46 PM   #220
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and... my friend killed himself. tied himself to a tree and poured petrol on him and then lit it up. so please continue your pos-vibe people talking about future husbands/wives. can you the ef imagine for a second and for a tenth of it, how he felt?
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:49 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
which obvisously means that everyone else wants some time together, no other options. you and others -- stop being pathetic with this US-crap style of condolence towards a person you have never even met.
OK, you are a pro-suicide warrior. That's your prerogative.
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Old 5th June 2019, 03:58 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Data relating to that has already been posted i think.

Though thinking about it, I know people who have attempted suicide, failed, then admitted it was a cry for help.

I have never met any people who have attempted suicide, succeeded, then admitted it was a cry for help.
s
Fact is, most suicides have attempted it before or expressed the desire.

A 'cry for help' is just as much a risk indicator as any. When I worked for a support phone line for desperate parents (a charity) we were trained to never ignore a caller's expressed reference to suicide. By role play we discovered it is typical for one to completely miss the reference or ignore it. We were trained to pick up on it. I had one woman who said she had just come home from being sectioned for suicide attempts, now she was home. She said she had three young kids int he house but she was going to top herself. We were under strict confidentiality but this was an occasion confidentiality could be broken. Her call was traced and the emergency services broke down her door to rescue her and her young kids.

If you look at famous suicides such as Sylvia Plath, from her autobiographical book The Bell Jar we can see had a long history of 'cries for help' (going missing for days when all the time she was underneath the eaves of the house wanting to die, throwing all her clothes out of a skyscraper window, slashing her wrists, etc). She put her head in the gas oven when husband Ted Hughes left her. How is this action defined? A cry for help that went wrong or finally a successful suicide after several attempts?
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:00 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
and... my friend killed himself. tied himself to a tree and poured petrol on him and then lit it up. so please continue your pos-vibe people talking about future husbands/wives. can you the ef imagine for a second and for a tenth of it, how he felt?
What are you saying, that it was right your friend killed himself?
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:00 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rape, Minoosh. I'm talking about rape.
I'm glad I asked, because I would never have figured out what you were talking about.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:01 PM   #225
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I feel at least some comfort knowing that it was by her own will, even if it wasn't exactly the worst it could've been.

I've had close relatives contemplate suicide and they articulated their feelings quite well. Therapy helped them snap out of it, but everyone's different.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:08 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm glad I asked, because I would never have figured out what you were talking about.
You may want to take a moment to to figure out the topic of the thread.
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:20 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then is suicide just... open then? Like never wrong?

There's not a suicide in history that wouldn't fall under "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on." Hell that's a workable definition for it.

Then what context and standards do we ever use to stop someone from committing or attempting suicide?
As a definition it is a little too broad. I wonder how many "normal" 17 yr. olds have said that exact phrase.

17 yr. old to parents sitting in the living room: "I'm in pain and I feel like it's not worth going on."

Dad: "You're still not getting the car keys this weekend."
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:30 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You may want to take a moment to to figure out the topic of the thread.
What do you think the topic is? Rape?
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Old 5th June 2019, 04:42 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I can't stand this, really. all those preaching nice future and what not -- have you suffered at least the same?
You are correct that we can't know how it feels to be someone else.

This young woman went beyond wanting to die - she wanted the state to kill her. Should it have done?
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:13 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
Thank you for the correction.

It makes so much more sense that it wasn't active euthanasia.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:26 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge certainly would be, 'trying' sounds more like a final desperate cry for help. A public place, famous for suicides where you're certain to be noticed. Compared to people who lock themselves in their home and take pills, hang themselves, shoot themselves etc I'd say this is a group that is actually hoping someone will intervene.
There are more than a few serious suicide attempts where the person survives. It's a myth people are all just calling for help.

We had a patient in the first hospital I worked at that blew his face off because he aimed the gun under his chin and angled it wrong. I've seen two other persons in the news who survived similar suicide attempts, one who was glad she survived even though she went from very beautiful to quite disfigured.

But of course there are non-serious attempts that fall in a different category.

If you question the studies you should address the studies, not throw your personal opinion out there about the study populations you imagine they used.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:29 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh well, I should have known a thread where I agreed with applecorped would not end well.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:31 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, it god us talking about euthanasia in a hypothetical scenario, then!
And with some surprising posts.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:34 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Well, it seems to be just an ordinary tragedy. Its likely the only reason it got coverage in the English language news is because they thought it was an extraordinary tragedy.

I am unsuprised that I did not have the full story.
Which is unfortunate given a 17 yr old starving herself to death is still a significant story, IMO.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:45 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Winces* Okay... I don't want to uncover this can of worms but...

I don't think very many suicide attempts fail at all.

I think a lot of attention and/or help seeking under the guise of suicide fail.

On a purely mechanical, nuts and bolts level killing yourself ain't that hard.

Most of the time people who want to die, kill themselves. People who want help try to kill themselves.

How this interfaces with assisted suicide is... not clear.
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't think this claim can stand without more data ... a way to quantify the "seriousness" of an effort to rule out "cries for help."
Another gut post, Joe. Find some data to support it or you are just voicing a myth. Minoosh is right.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:47 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What is different apart from the legal definition? She choose to end her life, you seemed to be opposed to that when it carried the legal term euthanasia, I don't see what is different?
They refused to force-feed her. That is not the same as assisting.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:51 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's my experience in this case (or what we originally thought had happened.) it sounds wrong to me, but when I thought about it more I couldn't come up with a reason why it is wrong.
You can't think of a reason this is wrong :

AACAP Suicide in Children and Teens
Quote:
Suicide is the second leading cause of death for children, adolescents, and young adults age 5-to-24-year-olds.

The majority of children and adolescents who attempt suicide have a significant mental health disorder, usually depression.

Among younger children, suicide attempts are often impulsive. They may be associated with feelings of sadness, confusion, anger, or problems with attention and hyperactivity.

Among teenagers, suicide attempts may be associated with feelings of stress, self-doubt, pressure to succeed, financial uncertainty, disappointment, and loss. For some teens, suicide may appear to be a solution to their problems.

Depression and suicidal feelings are treatable mental disorders. The child or adolescent needs to have his or her illness recognized and diagnosed, and appropriately treated with a comprehensive treatment plan.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Anorexia Nervosa can be fatal, the prognosis may not be as bad as pancreatic cancer or lung cancer but is often resistant to treatment.
Can be. Sadly people, mostly women, die from a severe electrolyte disorder causing their hearts to stop.

Karen Carpenter is a famous case.
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Old 5th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They refused to force-feed her. That is not the same as assisting.
Oh goodie now we get to do the 20 page "Active vs Passive Killing" Trolley Problem debate again.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Another gut post, Joe. Find some data to support it or you are just voicing a myth. Minoosh is right.
*Sighs* And the worms are out.

What "data" am I supposed to **** out exactly? Mind scans? Psychics readings?

It ain't hard (speaking purely on a mechanical level) to kill yourself. It isn't something you're going to mess up if you're actually serious about doing it. You seem to think I'm treating suicide attempts as a way of "asking for help" as something to be ashamed of or to look down on people for and I'm not, but it does factor into how we conceptualize it when talking about assisted suicide.

But, and I should have known, someone has focused on one specific detail and ignoring the larger point I was making.

We can't have two separate arbitrary kinds of suicide with two separate standards built around them where we have to start from two different starting assumptions.

If the rape victim slashing her wrists in her bathtub is tragic the rape victim asking her doctor to turn up her morphine drip can't be noble. We can see nuance to be sure but they can't be... basically diametrically opposite.

We can't expect the conversations we have like "Suicide rates against this or that demographic" or "Is X a factor in this or that demographics suicides?" or any of the other of the similar discussions we're having AND the "It's everyone's right to decide when they die" discussions to stay completely separate.

Alls I'm saying in we can't have it so when someone says "I want to commit suicide" we assume they are wrong and have to be saved AND when someone says "I want to end my life" we assume they are right and have to support them without unpacking that somewhat.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 5th June 2019 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 5th June 2019, 06:19 PM   #240
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Alls I'm saying in we can't have it so when someone says "I want to commit suicide" we assume they are wrong and have to be saved AND when someone says "I want to end my life" we assume they are right and have to support them without unpacking that somewhat.
When I responded to your post I wasn't factoring in assisted suicide at all. I was thinking more of a point system for rating suicide attempts (in aggregate; not judging individual attempts). Looking at the circumstances and evaluating whether the subject took only borderline effectual measures and knew others would soon be on the scene vs. taking highly effective measures with a low chance someone would arrive on the scene.
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