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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 5th June 2019, 07:24 PM   #241
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:17 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We had a patient in the first hospital I worked at that blew his face off because he aimed the gun under his chin and angled it wrong. I've seen two other persons in the news who survived similar suicide attempts, one who was glad she survived even though she went from very beautiful to quite disfigured.
Helped take care of one of those as well, once. Did not improve the gentleman's standard of living Even with face blown off, he wasn't evidently interested in repeating the matter.
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Old 5th June 2019, 08:56 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
DO YOU NOT HAVE ANY KIDS. who can be so heartless to say something against it. DO YOU HAVE PARROTS?
I have a grown son I raised by myself as a single parent and I have a lot of experience having been a nurse for 45 years, 35 of which were as a nurse practitioner.

Along the way I have worked in pediatrics and bone marrow transplant, and with drug users and in a psych hospital (infection control, not trying to overstate the psych hospital experience).

There are 5 murder suicides in my immediate family:
Grandfather: suicide
Two great uncles: murder suicide.

None of us know what experiences other people on the thread have had.


I merely asked Darat if he knew just how immature teen thinking was.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:00 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
could you please stop mentioning strawman all the time if you have no other arguments. I have no intentions of making strawmen. i am not directing them at you particularly, if you feel like that
I'm truly sorry kayle but I don't see that your comments show you understand why you are making straw man arguments and you don't seem to understand the immaturity of teen thinking.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:02 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
and... my friend killed himself. tied himself to a tree and poured petrol on him and then lit it up. so please continue your pos-vibe people talking about future husbands/wives. can you the ef imagine for a second and for a tenth of it, how he felt?
And this is relevant how?

I also know a fire fighter who poured gasoline on himself and lit it. This is a different statement than just, "I'm done here."
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:06 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I feel at least some comfort knowing that it was by her own will, even if it wasn't exactly the worst it could've been.

I've had close relatives contemplate suicide and they articulated their feelings quite well. Therapy helped them snap out of it, but everyone's different.
Serious depression runs in my family including self-medicating with alcoholism. I am fortunate to have been born in the era we are starting to recognize how to correct brain neurotransmitter deficiencies that play a role in depression.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:14 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Anorexia Nervosa can be fatal, the prognosis may not be as bad as pancreatic cancer or lung cancer but is often resistant to treatment.
I am not convinced this girl had anorexia. Logically, that seems to have been the presumption based upon her refusal to eat. However now we know that killing herself, rather than losing weight, was the point of her refusal to eat; so it would seem that anorexia is refuted by the facts.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:42 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I am not convinced this girl had anorexia.
Anorexics don't generally ask other people to kill them.

This girl sounds like she was traumatized and depressed.
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Old 5th June 2019, 09:51 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh goodie now we get to do the 20 page "Active vs Passive Killing" Trolley Problem debate again.
I think the distinction in this case is quite stark. I'll have to agree to disagree with you if you don't.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* And the worms are out.

What "data" am I supposed to **** out exactly? Mind scans? Psychics readings?

It ain't hard (speaking purely on a mechanical level) to kill yourself. It isn't something you're going to mess up if you're actually serious about doing it. You seem to think I'm treating suicide attempts as a way of "asking for help" as something to be ashamed of or to look down on people for and I'm not, but it does factor into how we conceptualize it when talking about assisted suicide.
Really? After how many years in this community and you think everyone is surely knowledgeable re common sense?

If someone tries to blow their brains out and ends up blowing their face off, pretty much all bets are off what persons trying to commit suicide must surely know. Don't you think?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But, and I should have known, someone has focused on one specific detail and ignoring the larger point I was making.

We can't have two separate arbitrary kinds of suicide with two separate standards built around them where we have to start from two different starting assumptions.
Yes we can, because it's true.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the rape victim slashing her wrists in her bathtub is tragic the rape victim asking her doctor to turn up her morphine drip can't be noble. We can see nuance to be sure but they can't be... basically diametrically opposite.

We can't expect the conversations we have like "Suicide rates against this or that demographic" or "Is X a factor in this or that demographics suicides?" or any of the other of the similar discussions we're having AND the "It's everyone's right to decide when they die" discussions to stay completely separate.

Alls I'm saying in we can't have it so when someone says "I want to commit suicide" we assume they are wrong and have to be saved AND when someone says "I want to end my life" we assume they are right and have to support them without unpacking that somewhat.
You are claiming the details of treatment when we have no idea what treatment has actually happened.
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Old 5th June 2019, 10:12 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think the distinction in this case is quite stark. I'll have to agree to disagree with you if you don't.
It really is.

I'm with you. Adults should not sit by and allow children to kill themselves.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:03 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What are you saying, that it was right your friend killed himself?
I'd take with a pinch of salt a story about someone tying themselves to a tree then pouring petrol on themselves and lighting it.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:56 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It really is.

I'm with you. Adults should not sit by and allow children to kill themselves.
How long do you tie her to a bed and force feed her though?
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:06 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It really is.

I'm with you. Adults should not sit by and allow children to kill themselves.
Would a parent want their kid to remain alive even though they are suffering day in day out if the kid didn't want to suffer any longer?

Of course it is more difficult with juveniles to ensure the appropriate safeguards are in place but I find it hard to believe that a parent would want to see their kid continue to suffer when the kid wants the suffering to end.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:12 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess for me a lot of this is the disparage between suicide and assisted suicide / euthanasia where the two actions carry such radically different standards.

If this girl (at least within the way the situation was first presented to us) had killed herself in the traditional sense/usage of the term it would have been a tragedy.
A tragedy, but at least it's her life to take.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:16 AM   #255
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I love this thread! We went from expressing emotions over something that didn't happen to mindreading the dead and speculating what various others were thinking after reading hearsay anecdotes. The scanter the material the stronger the opinion!
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:20 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I love this thread! We went from expressing emotions over something that didn't happen to mindreading the dead and speculating what various others were thinking after reading hearsay anecdotes. The scanter the material the stronger the opinion!
As long as we're clear with what we are doing and don't conflate the two we can use a nothingburger to talk about a burger that might have been honestly.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:08 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'd take with a pinch of salt a story about someone tying themselves to a tree then pouring petrol on themselves and lighting it.
I actually had a close friend who died that way in 2011. (There are a few local news articles about it, but I'd rather not link them. I'm pretty open about where I live, and it should be easy to google if anyone doesn't believe me.) He did not tie himself to a tree (which does sound odd), but he did douse himself in gas and light it. I'd been the last person to see him alive before he disappeared and did this horrible thing, which sucked, because it really haunted me nonstop for years.

I'm afraid I can't understand kayle's point, though. My friend having done this thing did not make me more supportive of suicide. It instead made me furious about the lack of sufficient healthcare for mentally ill veterans. (My friend was a Gulf War veteran with very serious psychiatric issues.) My friend fell through the cracks, long story short.

If I'd only seen it somehow that last time we hung out. He hid it well, I assume because he'd made his decision and didn't want to be stopped. He was saying goodbye, I just didn't know it.

We could have maybe saved him.


EDIT: I should clarify one thing. I was the last person that he knew to see him alive or speak to him. There were a few random people who said they saw him filling up soda bottles with gas at a station close to where his body was found in his car. They had no reason to suspect what he was up to, they just remembered a big guy buying a lot of gas when the cops were asking questions later. I was the last mofo with a chance to really talk him down. I just didn't know to do it until it was too late.

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Old 6th June 2019, 07:15 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I actually had a close friend who died that way in 2011. (There are a few local news articles about it, but I'd rather not link them. I'm pretty open about where I live, and it should be easy to google if anyone doesn't believe me.) He did not tie himself to a tree (which does sound odd), but he did douse himself in gas and light it. I'd been the last person to see him alive before he disappeared and did this horrible thing, which sucked, because it really haunted me nonstop for years.

I'm afraid I can't understand kayle's point, though. My friend having done this thing did not make me more supportive of suicide. It instead made me furious about the lack of sufficient healthcare for mentally ill veterans. (My friend was a Gulf War veteran with very serious psychiatric issues.) My friend fell through the cracks, long story short.

If I'd only seen it somehow that last time we hung out. He hid it well, I assume because he'd made his decision and didn't want to be stopped. He was saying goodbye, I just didn't know it.

We could have maybe saved him.
It's the tying himself up part I can't understand.

I've known two people who elected to end their life early. One, when I was in my late teens and so was he, completely out of the blue no-one saw it coming. Hosepipe to the exhaust. Another friend bought his car later... life goes on eh!

The other was third times the charm. Two previous attempts gave me a chance to speak to him about it and he'd always insist that he felt it was such a stupid action to take after the event, but at the time.......

It was overdose.

I've just realised that they were both called Brian.

EDIT - Just seen your edit. You should never shoulder any blame for anothers suicide.

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Old 6th June 2019, 07:18 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I actually had a close friend who died that way in 2011. (There are a few local news articles about it, but I'd rather not link them. I'm pretty open about where I live, and it should be easy to google if anyone doesn't believe me.) He did not tie himself to a tree (which does sound odd), but he did douse himself in gas and light it. I'd been the last person to see him alive before he disappeared and did this horrible thing, which sucked, because it really haunted me nonstop for years.

I'm afraid I can't understand kayle's point, though. My friend having done this thing did not make me more supportive of suicide. It instead made me furious about the lack of sufficient healthcare for mentally ill veterans. (My friend was a Gulf War veteran with very serious psychiatric issues.) My friend fell through the cracks, long story short.

If I'd only seen it somehow that last time we hung out. He hid it well, I assume because he'd made his decision and didn't want to be stopped. He was saying goodbye, I just didn't know it.

We could have maybe saved him.


EDIT: I should clarify one thing. I was the last person that he knew to see him alive or speak to him. There were a few random people who said they saw him filling up soda bottles with gas at a station close to where his body was found in his car. They had no reason to suspect what he was up to, they just remembered a big guy buying a lot of gas when the cops were asking questions later. I was the last mofo with a chance to really talk him down. I just didn't know to do it until it was too late.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:18 AM   #260
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The tying part struck me as odd as well. I figured that was what you meant.

Just seeing all this pro-suicide stuff in this thread dug up those dreadful memories, and my tale came pouring out. I sent emails to my friend's account for years after he was dead, just telling him I was sorry and saying what was going on in my life. Not very much like my usual skeptical self. Grief makes you wacky. Guilt too.

I don't expect it will change anyone's mind, but it's a perspective.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Thank you .

It's just hard for me to accept "complete personal autonomy" pro-suicide arguments when I know my friend was ill and troubled and sometimes delusional. He'd made up his mind, yes, but his mind had been off meds for a few months. He wasn't himself. I could tell he wasn't himself when I spent time with him, I just didn't realize how bad it was this time. I knew he had "good days and bad days" and all that.

When he wasn't ill, he was a joyful, loving person who adored life and was kind to everyone, way beyond what he needed to do. He used to round up homeless kids in the south side and take them home for big vegan dinners he'd cooked. It sounds like I'm making **** up to make him sound like a saint, but I'm not. He really was kind of a saint.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
The tying part struck me as odd as well. I figured that was what you meant.

Just seeing all this pro-suicide stuff in this thread dug up those dreadful memories, and my tale came pouring out. I sent emails to my friend's account for years after he was dead, just telling him I was sorry and saying what was going on in my life. Not very much like my usual skeptical self. Grief makes you wacky. Guilt too.

I don't expect it will change anyone's mind, but it's a perspective.
And thank you for sharing.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:22 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
The tying part struck me as odd as well. I figured that was what you meant.

Just seeing all this pro-suicide stuff in this thread dug up those dreadful memories, and my tale came pouring out. I sent emails to my friend's account for years after he was dead, just telling him I was sorry and saying what was going on in my life. Not very much like my usual skeptical self. Grief makes you wacky. Guilt too.

I don't expect it will change anyone's mind, but it's a perspective.

It has brought up bad memories for me, too.


I just can't imagine anyone sitting by their child's bed, watching them slip away of starvation or thirst without taking every measure available in the galaxy to try to prevent it.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:25 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by kayle View Post
and... my friend killed himself. tied himself to a tree and poured petrol on him and then lit it up. so please continue your pos-vibe people talking about future husbands/wives. can you the ef imagine for a second and for a tenth of it, how he felt?
Well that was dumb of him. People do stupid things all the time. Doesn't mean we have to support those stupid things.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
It has brought up bad memories for me, too.


I just can't imagine anyone sitting by their child's bed, watching them slip away of starvation or thirst without taking every measure available in the galaxy to try to prevent it.
I can't either. I'm trying not to judge and condemn people I don't know in faraway situations, but it's hard to imagine it going in a way that isn't horrible!

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Old 6th June 2019, 07:30 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A tragedy, but at least it's her life to take.
And I don't disagree in the abstract, or even in the practical really.

All I've ever been saying is that it's kind of off that in order to be comfortable with assisted suicide/euthanasia and still treat traditional suicide as tragic we've just had to create two different "types" of suicide that don't really have any defining characteristic beyond how much of a warm and fuzzy we feel about it after the fact and that is something we should be able to talk about.

I'm not saying we should deal with suicide as a problem and I'm not saying people don't have the right to end their own life (but even those look at how weird that statement is one the surface) I'm just saying the idea the Person A is a hospital bed saying they want to die and Person B just sitting at home saying they want to die are that much of a different scenario is something I'm not 100% sure if I agree with.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:34 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We had a patient in the first hospital I worked at that blew his face off because he aimed the gun under his chin and angled it wrong. I've seen two other persons in the news who survived similar suicide attempts, one who was glad she survived even though she went from very beautiful to quite disfigured.
At least a couple of face transplant recipients got to that point stemming from suicide attempts with a firearm: Cameron Underwood & Katie Stubblefield.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:39 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I don't disagree in the abstract, or even in the practical really.

All I've ever been saying is that it's kind of off that in order to be comfortable with assisted suicide/euthanasia and still treat traditional suicide as tragic we've just had to create two different "types" of suicide that don't really have any defining characteristic beyond how much of a warm and fuzzy we feel about it after the fact and that is something we should be able to talk about.

I'm not saying we should deal with suicide as a problem and I'm not saying people don't have the right to end their own life (but even those look at how weird that statement is one the surface) I'm just saying the idea the Person A is a hospital bed saying they want to die and Person B just sitting at home saying they want to die are that much of a different scenario is something I'm not 100% sure if I agree with.
I agree with you.

We tend to use the two statements to mean different things -or at least treat them as if they mean different things- because many of us do empathize with those who wish to die because of physical pain; and want to prevent the deaths of those who believe they wish to die, but in fact just want to stop hurting emotionally.

It all comes down to "why" and whether we perceive that reason as valid in the long-term.

Suicide is a permanent "solution" for what is often temporary problems, and I don't think very many of us want to see young people take that course when age & experience have informed us that eventually time heals nearly every emotional wound.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:39 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I don't disagree in the abstract, or even in the practical really.

All I've ever been saying is that it's kind of off that in order to be comfortable with assisted suicide/euthanasia and still treat traditional suicide as tragic we've just had to create two different "types" of suicide that don't really have any defining characteristic beyond how much of a warm and fuzzy we feel about it after the fact and that is something we should be able to talk about.

I'm not saying we should deal with suicide as a problem and I'm not saying people don't have the right to end their own life (but even those look at how weird that statement is one the surface) I'm just saying the idea the Person A is a hospital bed saying they want to die and Person B just sitting at home saying they want to die are that much of a different scenario is something I'm not 100% sure if I agree with.
I think it's a pretty clear distinction if you draw the line at "assisting suicide is okay when the person has an agonizing and/or terminal illness." That's clearly two different kinds of suicide without any need for fuzzies. If the person is already terminal and they want to hasten the process with dignity, that is one thing. It's closer to people who voluntarily stop chemotherapy than people who throw themselves off bridges.

In any other situation, nobody has any business "assisting" anybody in suicide.

My opinion, of course. Worth every penny!
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:01 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think it's a pretty clear distinction if you draw the line at "assisting suicide is okay when the person has an agonizing and/or terminal illness." That's clearly two different kinds of suicide without any need for fuzzies. If the person is already terminal and they want to hasten the process with dignity, that is one thing. It's closer to people who voluntarily stop chemotherapy than people who throw themselves off bridges.

In any other situation, nobody has any business "assisting" anybody in suicide.

My opinion, of course. Worth every penny!
But in the case here, how long do you put her in restraints in bed and force feed her for?
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:11 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But in the case here, how long do you put her in restraints in bed and force feed her for?
In the States, suicidal people are often committed for at least 72 hours to attempt psychological intervention once they get to such a point. I don't always like this practice - I do believe that the system gets clogged with (for example) drunk people making idle statements who have to be committed because it's policy. That just wastes everyone's time, and it makes people afraid to talk to police or doctors if even the slightest thing is wrong with them. Many people hold back information from their psychiatrists, in fact, because they are afraid dark thoughts will be interpreted as suicidal and they'll be tossed in the hospital for 3 days or more. I don't know about you, but I can't just disappear from my life for 3 days. That would make things worse; I've got **** to do.

So yeah, I don't always like the way we do things here, and I don't know what the right answer is. It could have possibly helped in this situation, though if they had a similar policy there. You don't know.

I find it a little weird that some people are bringing up this "force-feeding her" like it's waterboarding. A few years ago, I pointed out how disturbing it is to me when people (in fiction and in life) who "save" drug addicts they care about by confining them or tying them up until they detox are treated as heroes. But when it's a 17-year-old rape victim, trying to save her is monstrous and cruel? I just don't get it.

On a personal note, pt, I sometimes feel as though no matter what I say, you will find a way to condemn it.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:16 AM   #272
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Also, even if I didn't have the stomach to "force-feed" a suicidal family member or convince them to take an IV, I'd still verbally fight them on their decision up until the end. There is no way I could just say, 'Welp, s/he's made his/her decision, so that's that."

However, the fact that this wasn't actually a state-sanctioned euthanasia makes the story less insane to me. I do understand that not everyone on Earth has the same feelings or experiences I do, and this girl's family knew her a hell of a lot better than me. Nevertheless, I am permitted a reaction of incredulity, and there it is.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:17 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
In the States, suicidal people are often committed for at least 72 hours to attempt psychological intervention once they get to such a point. I don't always like this practice - I do believe that the system gets clogged with (for example) drunk people making idle statements who have to be committed because it's policy. That just wastes everyone's time, and it makes people afraid to talk to police or doctors if even the slightest thing is wrong with them. Many people hold back information from their psychiatrists, in fact, because they are afraid dark thoughts will be interpreted as suicidal and they'll be tossed in the hospital for 3 days or more. I don't know about you, but I can't just disappear from my life for 3 days. That would make things worse; I've got **** to do.

So yeah, I don't always like the way we do things here, and I don't know what the right answer is. It could have possibly helped in this situation, though if they had a similar policy there. You don't know.

I find it a little weird that some people are bringing up this "force-feeding her" like it's waterboarding. A few years ago, I pointed out how disturbing it is to me when people (in fiction and in life) who "save" drug addicts they care about by confining them or tying them up until they detox are treated as heroes. But when it's a 17-year-old rape victim, trying to save her is monstrous and cruel? I just don't get it.

On a personal note, pt, I sometimes feel as though no matter what I say, you will find a way to condemn it.
I'm not trying to condem anything, I don't know what to do either. I think suicidal people should be stopped, because most suicidal actions are spur of the moment things which is why guns are dangerous to be around people with any suicidal thoughts.

But this isn't a short fast action that won't make sense in 24 hours but a prolonged issue. It makes it all so much more complicated.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:20 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I'm not trying to condem anything, I don't know what to do either. I think suicidal people should be stopped, because most suicidal actions are spur of the moment things which is why guns are dangerous to be around people with any suicidal thoughts.

But this isn't a short fast action that won't make sense in 24 hours but a prolonged issue. It makes it all so much more complicated.
I agree, it is a mess.

I've struggled for years with my conflicting feelings about personal autonomy vs. saving suicidal people who may not be thinking clearly. I do think that at a certain point a person's life is their own, but outside of (what I feel are ) more clear-cut cases involving terminal illness, it's very difficult to say where exactly that point is.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:20 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Also, even if I didn't have the stomach to "force-feed" a suicidal family member or convince them to take an IV, I'd still verbally fight them on their decision up until the end. There is no way I could just say, 'Welp, s/he's made his/her decision, so that's that."
An IV would likely not give the nutrition needed, you would use an NG tube up the nose, this would of course require her hands to be restrained to avoid pulling it out.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:23 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
An IV would likely not give the nutrition needed, you would use an NG tube up the nose, this would of course require her hands to be restrained to avoid pulling it out.
Yeah, I mean, I would not want to have to make that call. That is extremely heavy stuff.

I think it would be traumatic to have anyone do that to you, but it would probably be less traumatic if it were done in a hospital versus your family trying to force food down your throat. I don't actually expect anyone to do that. I just wish (perhaps naively) that there could have been further professional intervention in this case. (Ideally, convincing her to eat - offering her some kind of hope. Again, I know - naive.)
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:29 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Yeah, I mean, I would not want to have to make that call. That is extremely heavy stuff.

I think it would be traumatic to have anyone do that to you, but it would probably be less traumatic if it were done in a hospital versus your family trying to force food down your throat. I don't actually expect anyone to do that. I just wish (perhaps naively) that there could have been further professional intervention in this case.
Of course your family couldn't force food down your throat, you need special equipment to safely force feed people. Look up how they do it at Gitmo. Otherwise they are likely to choke on it and get the food in their lungs.

I wish lots of things were different, I just don't know what should be done in this situation. If she was in american custody sure we are good a force feeding those in detention be it Gitmo or ICE.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:38 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
In the States, suicidal people are often committed for at least 72 hours to attempt psychological intervention once they get to such a point. I don't always like this practice - I do believe that the system gets clogged with (for example) drunk people making idle statements who have to be committed because it's policy. That just wastes everyone's time, and it makes people afraid to talk to police or doctors if even the slightest thing is wrong with them. Many people hold back information from their psychiatrists, in fact, because they are afraid dark thoughts will be interpreted as suicidal and they'll be tossed in the hospital for 3 days or more. I don't know about you, but I can't just disappear from my life for 3 days. That would make things worse; I've got **** to do.

So yeah, I don't always like the way we do things here, and I don't know what the right answer is. It could have possibly helped in this situation, though if they had a similar policy there. You don't know.
As far as I can tell from the translated article that Eddie Dane linked to in a Reddit thread, she had already gone through this sort of thing several times (it even refers to the use of an induced comma in the force feeding effort —presumably as a way of dealing with someone struggling even when physically restrained?).

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Quote:
[...]

Under the Medical Treatment Contracts Act, a patient has the right to receive clear information from the physician about his medical condition, the prognosis and treatment options. Based on the information provided, the patient can either choose to grant or not grant care providers consent to provide treatment, nursing or care. A patient always has the right to decide against treatment, nursing and care, or against specific aspects thereof. Should the patient not grant consent, the care providers may not provide treatment, nursing or care.

Obviously, there's a way to get around that in case of mental illness: by getting a court order for involuntary treatment.

In fact, this girl had already undergone involuntary treatment on several occasions after several failed suicide attempts:

[...]

Noa has been admitted very often in recent years, to hospitals, institutions and specialist centers. Horrified, she recalls involuntary admissions to youth care institutions. She could only wear a tear-proof dress - an emergency measure to keep her from committing suicide. Being institutionalized had a traumatizing effect on her. "Never, never will I go into isolation again. It's degrading."

Coercive measures are humiliating, says Noa. She will never forget how she was taken to the Arnhem court, where judges decided on involuntary admission to a treatment center. The sight of the "people in gowns" stayed with her. "I almost feel like a criminal, even though I haven't so much as stolen a piece of candy in my life," she writes in her autobiography.

And last year:

[...]

Not too long ago she was admitted in critical condition to a hospital in Arnhem, severely underweight and at risk of having vital organs cease functioning. She was even put into an induced coma so she could be fed through a feeding tube.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:40 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course your family couldn't force food down your throat, you need special equipment to safely force feed people. Look up how they do it at Gitmo. Otherwise they are likely to choke on it and get the food in their lungs.

I wish lots of things were different, I just don't know what should be done in this situation. If she was in american custody sure we are good a force feeding those in detention be it Gitmo or ICE.
I know it's not something that could really be done at home. I was just sort of clarifying my statements. Earlier, I had an emotional outburst about "how could the parents just sit by and watch that, I can't imagine." In my last post, I was clarifying that I understand there isn't realistically much they can do if "the system" doesn't call for intervention.

Your parallels to Gitmo and ICE detentions, while not false, seem to be muddying my meaning a bit. People are frequently fed compulsorily in medical care as well, which was what I was musing about. What's more barbaric - forcing life or allowing death? This is a question for the philosophers.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:38 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
It has brought up bad memories for me, too.





I just can't imagine anyone sitting by their child's bed, watching them slip away of starvation or thirst without taking every measure available in the galaxy to try to prevent it.
Perhaps think of it from another perspective: your child is suffering intolerable torment every single moment, all treatments have been tried and were unsuccessful, why wouldn't you want your child's suffering to end?
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