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Tags euthanasia , euthanasia incidents , euthanasia issues , Netherland incidents , Netherland issues

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Old 6th June 2019, 11:41 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I don't disagree in the abstract, or even in the practical really.



All I've ever been saying is that it's kind of off that in order to be comfortable with assisted suicide/euthanasia and still treat traditional suicide as tragic we've just had to create two different "types" of suicide that don't really have any defining characteristic beyond how much of a warm and fuzzy we feel about it after the fact and that is something we should be able to talk about.



I'm not saying we should deal with suicide as a problem and I'm not saying people don't have the right to end their own life (but even those look at how weird that statement is one the surface) I'm just saying the idea the Person A is a hospital bed saying they want to die and Person B just sitting at home saying they want to die are that much of a different scenario is something I'm not 100% sure if I agree with.
I really don't see the difference, suicide or euthanasia is tragic, I've known people who have said about a person who has killed themselves "at least they are no longer suffering", just as you would if someone had been killed by euthanasia.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:47 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really don't see the difference, suicide or euthanasia is tragic, I've known people who have said about a person who has killed themselves "at least they are no longer suffering", just as you would if someone had been killed by euthanasia.
Yeah and I still don't get how under your standards suicide is ever "wrong."
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:53 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and I still don't get how under your standards suicide is ever "wrong."
Why do we have to think of it as being wrong or right? The nearest I can get to a right or wrong judgement is that I think it is wrong if people don't have access to medical treatment and therefore they have no chance of being treated.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:55 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Perhaps think of it from another perspective: your child is suffering intolerable torment every single moment, all treatments have been tried and were unsuccessful, why wouldn't you want your child's suffering to end?
But what is the reason for the suffering? Severe physical illness may well be untreatable. That's what "terminal" means. Some chronic conditions could become unbearable. But psychiatric disorders are not in themselves deadly. They can often be treated with medication and therapy, particularly depression resulting from trauma. The first question to ask here is whether all treatments have really been tried? If there is anything a responsible doctor or therapist would propose that has not been tried, then the answer is no. The second question to ask is whether someone who is suffering can be made more comfortable without dying. Did that happen here? In the U.S. marijuana and cbd are being used to treat all kinds of pain. I'm sure that would be an option in the Netherlands. Did they try it?

Someone who is 17 has never lived on her own or made many big decisions for herself. I would like to know a lot more about the family dynamics here. She didn't get into this abyss on her own. Age 17 is too young to give up on life.

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Old 6th June 2019, 11:57 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I love this thread! We went from expressing emotions over something that didn't happen to mindreading the dead and speculating what various others were thinking after reading hearsay anecdotes. The scanter the material the stronger the opinion!
The best for me were the frequent mentions of anorexia despite the fact that the reason she was starving herself was in order to die. It reminded me of that other famous anorexic, Mahatma Gandhi.
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:57 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why do we have to think of it as being wrong or right? The nearest I can get to a right or wrong judgement is that I think it is wrong if people don't have access to medical treatment and therefore they have no chance of being treated.
Okay then in what situations should we try to stop someone from committing suicide that doesn't contradict the "They have a right to end their life" argument?
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:09 PM   #287
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I really don't draw such a distinction between mental illness and other illness (as long as they retain the capacity to be able to make rational decisions) so I would say depression for some people can be as intolerable as living in agonising "physical" pain.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:23 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay then in what situations should we try to stop someone from committing suicide that doesn't contradict the "They have a right to end their life" argument?
I touched on this earlier, I'd say we should intervene if someone has not had treatment and if it is a spur of the moment decision.
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:39 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really don't draw such a distinction between mental illness and other illness (as long as they retain the capacity to be able to make rational decisions) so I would say depression for some people can be as intolerable as living in agonising "physical" pain.
This is probably going to sound like a harsh/stupid point as I don't know enough about mental illnesses, but surely a mental illness by definition rules out any possibility of knowing whether someone has retained the capacity to make rational decisions?

Or are there some that don't?
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Old 6th June 2019, 12:45 PM   #290
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Does rational have to mean "what I'd do" (what I imagine I would do)?
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:02 PM   #291
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Treating mental health issues is possible, now if a child had neurological damage that caused incessant pain that would be different.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:35 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/pa...66e1b1b8e215a1


Noa Pothoven, 17, has been legally euthanised in the Netherlands, saying the pain she was dealing with after a childhood rape was “insufferable”.



So much for the Hippocratic Oath
It's fascinating, but unfortunately completely unsurprising, that the usual suspects have propagated this lie.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:39 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Treating mental health issues is possible, now if a child had neurological damage that caused incessant pain that would be different.
People keep saying things like the highlighted as if the possibility that suffering could be alleviated, even if repeated attempts to do so have failed, is enough to justify denying someone the right to end their suffering by choosing to die. The logical end to this is depriving such a person of their freedom by locking them up until they're feeling better, or forever.

If I spend years in pain (physical, mental, and/or emotional) despite treatment, pain that I decide to stop by taking effective steps to ending my own life, my liberty shouldn't be taken away because treatment might work someday.

I value life and certainly wouldn't advocate suicide as an early option for pain relief, but life for the sake of itself isn't life, not for a human being anyway.
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Old 6th June 2019, 01:54 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But in the case here, how long do you put her in restraints in bed and force feed her for?
A glucose drip in the arm is hardly 'force feeding' in the older sense of brutally forcing tubes down to the stomach.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:00 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Perhaps think of it from another perspective: your child is suffering intolerable torment every single moment, all treatments have been tried and were unsuccessful, why wouldn't you want your child's suffering to end?
According to the original article, which we now know was fake news, put out by an unreliable news agency, which was picked up by national presses all over the world, nonetheless it claimed doctors agreed she should be euthanised because rape must be so terribly unbearable for her. So it came across a a bunch of male doctors dictating what they imagine a young woman should be feeling.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:05 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I really don't draw such a distinction between mental illness and other illness (as long as they retain the capacity to be able to make rational decisions) so I would say depression for some people can be as intolerable as living in agonising "physical" pain.
The vast majority of mental illness that leads to suicide (depression) is self-limiting. In other words it goes into remission sooner or later of its own accord, usually within two year at the most. Your assertion that depression is permanent is medically incorrect, thus your argument is based on a false premise, i.e., that a feeling of sadness or hopelessness can be as 'terminal' as stage four cancer.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:19 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vast majority of mental illness that leads to suicide (depression) is self-limiting. In other words it goes into remission sooner or later of its own accord, usually within two year at the most. Your assertion that depression is permanent is medically incorrect, thus your argument is based on a false premise, i.e., that a feeling of sadness or hopelessness can be as 'terminal' as stage four cancer.

What about the cases that aren't part of the vast majority?

It doesn't sound like this girl lacked for earlier treatment for her mental issues.

Maybe hers wasn't part of "[t]he vast majority".

Are any of us in a better position to judge? It doesn't sound like her family was negligent in trying other alternatives first.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:20 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vast majority of mental illness that leads to suicide (depression) is self-limiting. In other words it goes into remission sooner or later of its own accord, usually within two year at the most. Your assertion that depression is permanent is medically incorrect, thus your argument is based on a false premise, i.e., that a feeling of sadness or hopelessness can be as 'terminal' as stage four cancer.
oh nice. could you come visit me and tell my depression it should have gone into remission by now (actually a long time ago)?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:23 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Treating mental health issues is possible, now if a child had neurological damage that caused incessant pain that would be different.
And if after treatment someone still is of the opinion that they do not want their suffering to continue?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:24 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

None of us know what experiences other people on the thread have had.
exactly. and neither outside the thread. this is not a hard evidence discussion, simply
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:25 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
A glucose drip in the arm is hardly 'force feeding' in the older sense of brutally forcing tubes down to the stomach.
Glucose drip would alone would not be enough to keep someone alive.
And if the person kept removing the drip?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:28 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
According to the original article, which we now know was fake news, put out by an unreliable news agency, which was picked up by national presses all over the world, nonetheless it claimed doctors agreed she should be euthanised because rape must be so terribly unbearable for her. So it came across a a bunch of male doctors dictating what they imagine a young woman should be feeling.
You must have missed it but we've left the report in the opening post behind us and have been for many posts now talking about hypotheticals.
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:31 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The vast majority of mental illness that leads to suicide (depression) is self-limiting. In other words it goes into remission sooner or later of its own accord, usually within two year at the most. Your assertion that depression is permanent is medically incorrect, thus your argument is based on a false premise, i.e., that a feeling of sadness or hopelessness can be as 'terminal' as stage four cancer.
I've never said depression is permenant, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.

How many years of suffering does someone have to wait before they are allowed to make decisions about their life continuing or ending?
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:32 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'd take with a pinch of salt a story about someone tying themselves to a tree then pouring petrol on themselves and lighting it.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

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Old 6th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Suicide is the second leading cause of death for children, adolescents, and young adults age 5-to-24-year-olds.
if it was Alzheimers, it would be a bit strange, wouldn't it
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Old 6th June 2019, 02:42 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And with some surprising posts.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:45 PM   #307
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IMHO Euthanesia should only apply to terminal physical illnesses. I am extremely uncomfortable with it being allowed in cases of mental illness.
Yes, I know in the end you can't really prevent somebody from preventing suicide.But we don't have to make it easy for them.
There really are no easy pat answers.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:09 PM   #308
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I'm stuck on this idea of tying yourself to a tree then setting fire to yourself?
That's terrible.

Apart from the physical complications, you are taking away the choice of your future self to change their mind once they start burning.
That seems to be more than suicide to me.

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Old 6th June 2019, 04:09 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
IMHO Euthanesia should only apply to terminal physical illnesses. I am extremely uncomfortable with it being allowed in cases of mental illness.
Yes, I know in the end you can't really prevent somebody from preventing suicide.But we don't have to make it easy for them.
There really are no easy pat answers.
My position is that my comfort level is irrelevant when it comes to someone else deciding to end their life after a long period of suffering for which available medical treatments have proven ineffective. Having a mental illness does not automatically mean a person is incompetent (legally or morally) to make life-altering or life-ending decisions.

I might come to a different conclusion if for whatever reason potentially curative medical treatments haven't even been attempted (as could easily be the case in this ******** country where going to an emergency room can bankrupt a person) but, just as I have no say in what a woman does with her uterus, I have no place in another person's decision whether or not to continue living. I can provide encouragement, I can try to do things that may make such a person's life a little better, etc., but if they decide their suffering is intolerable I won't stop them from doing what they feel they have to. Depending on the situation, I may even help them if they need it. It would be terrible for me, but it's not about me.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:12 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
My position is that my comfort level is irrelevant when it comes to someone else deciding to end their life after a long period of suffering for which available medical treatments have proven ineffective.
Obviously you abstain from voting.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:19 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
What about the cases that aren't part of the vast majority?

It doesn't sound like this girl lacked for earlier treatment for her mental issues.

Maybe hers wasn't part of "[t]he vast majority".

Are any of us in a better position to judge? It doesn't sound like her family was negligent in trying other alternatives first.
No, but it's still hard for me to imagine not keeping on trying new, different medical interventions till something worked.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:23 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would a parent want their kid to remain alive even though they are suffering day in day out if the kid didn't want to suffer any longer?
The question (which there is no answer for) is "For how long?"

If we had a crystal ball and knew the kid would snap out of it in a few days, of course the obvious choice would be intervene and prevent death. Or, if on the other hand, it was known that the suffering would never, ever abate, year after year for decades, then letting the child die as painlessly as possible would be the more moral thing to do.

Not knowing is what makes this whole thing so tricky.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:29 PM   #313
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If someone is really determined to die, and stays that way, over a period of years, you really can't stop them, even if they are only 17. I don't blame the parents, they tried everything, numerous hospital stays, countless counseling sessions and glucose iv's, even a medically induced coma so proper gastric feeding could be used. Yes, it will keep someone alive, but what then? At some point you have to accede to her wishes, you can't keep her unconscious until she's 21.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:33 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've never said depression is permenant, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.

How many years of suffering does someone have to wait before they are allowed to make decisions about their life continuing or ending?
When you're an adult, you're the captain of your own ship. Kill yourself over stubbing your toe for all I care. The decision to stop or continue existing is far too personal for me to say what's right or wrong for everyone else as some sort of general rule.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:42 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
If someone is really determined to die, and stays that way, over a period of years, you really can't stop them, even if they are only 17. I don't blame the parents, they tried everything, numerous hospital stays, countless counseling sessions and glucose iv's, even a medically induced coma so proper gastric feeding could be used. Yes, it will keep someone alive, but what then? At some point you have to accede to her wishes, you can't keep her unconscious until she's 21.
Pretty sure I'd doctor shop for someone willing to try off-label use of euphoria-inducing and/or appetite stimulating drugs before I'd throw in the towel and just accept that my kid was destined to die from sadness.
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:55 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, but it's still hard for me to imagine not keeping on trying new, different medical interventions till something worked.
Sorry Kellyb, the technology-will-always-find-a-way-and-prevail mantra is only acceptable in the Driverless cars thread!
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:55 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I'm stuck on this idea of tying yourself to a tree then setting fire to yourself?
That's terrible.

Apart from the physical complications, you are taking away the choice of your future self to change their mind once they start burning.
That seems to be more than suicide to me.


Set the gas can down. Tie your hands together around the tree trunk. Realize that you can’t reach the gas can. That’s how I pictured it.

I guess you could tie a sort of belt around your waist to keep your arms free.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why do we have to think of it as being wrong or right? The nearest I can get to a right or wrong judgement is that I think it is wrong if people don't have access to medical treatment and therefore they have no chance of being treated.
Yeah. I found that to be the single most difficult part when I got involved with counselling. Much as ones instinct might be to judge, one must never do that.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:41 PM   #319
Marcus
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Pretty sure I'd doctor shop for someone willing to try off-label use of euphoria-inducing and/or appetite stimulating drugs before I'd throw in the towel and just accept that my kid was destined to die from sadness.
Although we haven't heard their whole story, it sounds like they spent years exploring every possible avenue. Refusing to eat and drink because you want to die, as has been pointed out, isn't anorexia, but the struggle plays out in a similar manner. Force feeding is a short term strategy only, and it had already been tried.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:48 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
People keep saying things like the highlighted as if the possibility that suffering could be alleviated, even if repeated attempts to do so have failed, is enough to justify denying someone the right to end their suffering by choosing to die. The logical end to this is depriving such a person of their freedom by locking them up until they're feeling better, or forever.

If I spend years in pain (physical, mental, and/or emotional) despite treatment, pain that I decide to stop by taking effective steps to ending my own life, my liberty shouldn't be taken away because treatment might work someday.

I value life and certainly wouldn't advocate suicide as an early option for pain relief, but life for the sake of itself isn't life, not for a human being anyway.
That isn't what my general comment was directed to, I was just responding to a sense of certain other posts, that suffering is a reason for suicide.

I am one of those who has worked with over 300 people who were actively suicidal, and even those who did attempt unsuccessfully were always grateful to not be dead.
I personally draw the line with mental illness as the cause of the pain, just a personal view.

I have lived with mental illness for my whole life and attempted suicide once when I was 13, fortunately unsuccessfully. Now that I am under treatment and dealt with childhood trauma and other afflictions, I am glad to be alive. The last time I had serious suicidal ideation was over 20 years ago. My son who is living with bipolar disorder is feeling much better since he started medical and psychological treatment.

Now in my POV, which is not one anyone else has to share, is that for mental illness it is usually a lack of treatment that leads to suicidal ideation and the pain that prompts it.

Now again if someone in their majority is suffering chronic pain , then that is their right to consider suicide. However it is a violent and often traumatic experience for the people who know the individual. Often palliative care can be effective in many ways. But if someone wants to off themselves I think they should be allowed to do so with medical assistance after a course of intervention.
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