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Old 6th June 2019, 03:06 PM   #81
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, it's shocking, I know, that in an explanation of what I mean by "supposed", I would actually use the word again! Or that I'd continue to use it after I explained what it meant.



I do. It's my opinion. It's also the law where I live. It's common sense, in a way: Why would you want to let an unsupervised, clawed predator roam about where it can kill wildlife, damage property, hurt children or get hit by cars or cyclists? Keep your pets under your control at all times.



You're the only one here claiming that this word requires an authority. This is your fantasy, not mine, so you don't get to demand that I abide by it. How about you check a dictionary, before you go on rants about how people mean something different than they say they mean?
I keep finding situations where I think, "now that I've explained what I mean by the word, we don't have to fight anymore, and can get back to our good faith discussion".

But it never seems to work out that way. I think most of the time, if a person isn't figuring out what I mean from context or common usage, it means there was no good faith discussion to get back to.
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can such procedures be done on such small creatures as cats?
Apparently so, although finding a vet that is able to do one and a price point that would be amicable seem the problem. Outlaw any other options though and I am sure that can be remedied. To state reps we go!
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:18 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can such procedures be done on such small creatures as cats?
Yes. Thirty seconds of googling "feline vasectomy" found this veterinarian's blog entry, where they talk about the procedure.

https://m.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvette...sectomies-7245

It's not commonly available, for historical reasons rather than technical ones. And this particular vet thinks it's probably not the best approach for cats. But no indication that cats are too small.

Probably we can credit van Leeuwenhoek and R. Bacon for this.
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:31 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes. Thirty seconds of googling "feline vasectomy" found this veterinarian's blog entry, where they talk about the procedure.
To be fair, it's more lively and fun to ask other posters who might know about these things than looking it up.
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:32 PM   #85
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Mmmmmm...bacon.

After the vasectomy, I could see the male cat being distracted after tearing open the pain-management bag of frozen peas and batting them all over the floor.

context
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Old 6th June 2019, 03:56 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
Declawing: somewhat controversial, banned in some places

male genital mutilation: it's ok because the father looks that way - you're an anti-semite for not allowing it - a hypothetical woman might prefer it that way - 100 foreskin removals might prevent a single UTI etc etc.

Legal virtually everywhere for arbitrary reasons.

I'm against both, fwiw
Yeah, it's shocking, cognitive dissonance at its best. Best left to a different thread though, so as not to derail this one.

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Old 6th June 2019, 04:15 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I know most vets in my city won't do the procedure anymore.
Vet on Cottman Ave. did our cat. IIRC you are in Philly?
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Old 6th June 2019, 04:51 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Vet on Cottman Ave. did our cat. IIRC you are in Philly?
Most is not all. Some vets continuing to do this completely legal procedure is ok with me. It is an individual choice.
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:50 PM   #89
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Anecdote, not evidence: I've had a dozen cats in my life, but have had only one declawed. We got him from a rescue; we went there to look at another cat, but he looked at me from his cage with the saddest eyes, and when I looked back, he turned on the purr motor. We took both of them.

It wasn't long before we found that he could be a violent psycho. He was big, and his claws were huge, and he could inflict a lot of damage. The last straw was one night when Mrs. Shemp was sitting on the couch. He came up onto the back of the couch and, with no provocation, tore out a piece of her scalp.

We could have dumped him back with the rescue, but instead we took him to get declawed. For a while, he continued to act psycho, but he couldn't do any damage (well, he could bite, but this was rare). Eventually, he seemed to get the idea, and he calmed down. He's still with us 15 years later, and he's the most loving cat you could imagine. (He's also an idiot, but that's another story.)
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Old 6th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #90
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Declaration of interest. I saw "The Secret Life of Pets" a few days ago and spent most of the film inwardly weeping that the farm dog (Rooster, Harrison Ford's character) had cropped ears. It was a drawing. A cartoon. But someone had sliced the poor thing's ears off and I could barely watch.

Declawing cats is barbaric and it's been illegal here since whenever. Somehow we cope. Oddly enough, nothing to do with this (maybe as a follow-on from the conversation about ear-cropping in Pixar movies) in the pub this evening another vet said she'd worked in the USA for a time, and was horrified by the mutilation. She's an anaesthetist and she launched into a neurology spiel about what happens to the wiring in a kitten's brain when you chop its fingertips off.

Don't do it, guys. Here were have an entire country where it's never done and somehow the place is intact.
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Old 6th June 2019, 06:38 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Declaration of interest. I saw "The Secret Life of Pets" a few days ago and spent most of the film inwardly weeping that the farm dog (Rooster, Harrison Ford's character) had cropped ears. It was a drawing. A cartoon. But someone had sliced the poor thing's ears off and I could barely watch.

Declawing cats is barbaric and it's been illegal here since whenever. Somehow we cope. Oddly enough, nothing to do with this (maybe as a follow-on from the conversation about ear-cropping in Pixar movies) in the pub this evening another vet said she'd worked in the USA for a time, and was horrified by the mutilation. She's an anaesthetist and she launched into a neurology spiel about what happens to the wiring in a kitten's brain when you chop its fingertips off.

Don't do it, guys. Here were have an entire country where it's never done and somehow the place is intact.

Intact? Your country is teeming with native birds and small mammals?
No.

Fact is cats pose a major threat to native wildlife. The studies on cat predation of native species are endless. Just "keep them indoors" is great in theory, except plenty of people don't do it. Declawing is barbaric, ok. So is unleashing non-native predators on our native birds and other critters.

The next best thing to fewer cats is cats that can't do any damage.
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Old 6th June 2019, 07:16 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
<snip>

I don't regret anything. I meant exactly what I said: domestic cats aren't indigenous to North America and so they're not supposed to be left outside unsupervised.

<snip>

Never lived on a farm, I guess.

Cats were brought to this country largely as working companion animals. Their sequestering in suburban and urban environments is a comparatively recent development.
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Old 6th June 2019, 09:16 PM   #93
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Can a declawed cat still deliver a fresh bunny head to the doorstep every morning like my friends' cats?
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Old 6th June 2019, 11:55 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm pretty sure it's sufficiently a common word that you know exactly what it means.

The only cats you'd find in the wild in my area are domestic cats whose owners let roam. They're not a natural occurence.



Meh, weak. Humans' natural environment is also the wild. We do quite fine indoors. Besides you can take a cat out on a leash, which is required in my city anyway.

You know you don't need to find a moral angle on this, right? You don't need to take offense.



I might, actually, depending on how barky it is.

I'll remind you that getting a pet is almost always a decision of convenience: you essentially enslave a living being to have some companionship. I'm sure you don't mind that.
Clearly, you have never been owned by a cat.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:26 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Intact? Your country is teeming with native birds and small mammals?
No.

Fact is cats pose a major threat to native wildlife. The studies on cat predation of native species are endless. Just "keep them indoors" is great in theory, except plenty of people don't do it. Declawing is barbaric, ok. So is unleashing non-native predators on our native birds and other critters.

The next best thing to fewer cats is cats that can't do any damage.
The evidence that cats have a significant effect on the wildlife population in the UK is uncertain at best.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:28 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Anecdotal evidence: My parents had two of their cats declawed. Both became psychos.
Yes, but how did it affect the cats?
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Old 7th June 2019, 02:11 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Never lived on a farm, I guess.

Cats were brought to this country largely as working companion animals. Their sequestering in suburban and urban environments is a comparatively recent development.
Which is irrelevant to my point. The context is completely different.

Regardless, my opinion is the same: you should keep your pets under control at all times. Of course, if you have a fenced farmland, you can let a dog roam free to take care of cattle or whatnot.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:33 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can such procedures be done on such small creatures as cats?
Yes, though they're skilled jobs. As is most surgery.
Small animal surgery is tricky because of the scale and variety.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:51 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Declaration of interest. I saw "The Secret Life of Pets" a few days ago and spent most of the film inwardly weeping that the farm dog (Rooster, Harrison Ford's character) had cropped ears. It was a drawing. A cartoon. But someone had sliced the poor thing's ears off and I could barely watch.

Declawing cats is barbaric and it's been illegal here since whenever. Somehow we cope. Oddly enough, nothing to do with this (maybe as a follow-on from the conversation about ear-cropping in Pixar movies) in the pub this evening another vet said she'd worked in the USA for a time, and was horrified by the mutilation. She's an anaesthetist and she launched into a neurology spiel about what happens to the wiring in a kitten's brain when you chop its fingertips off.

Don't do it, guys. Here were have an entire country where it's never done and somehow the place is intact.
This.
Declawing of cats was prohibited, without very specific medical reasons, in 2006 in the UK. Though even before that it was uncommon in the extreme.

It's banned in the UK, Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, Norway,
Denmark, Finland, Slovenia, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium, Israel, Turkey, Ukraine, et cetera. It's also prohibited by the European Convention for the Protection of Pet Animals.

The only country where I've seen this horrific form of permanent injury inflicted on cats is the USA. Hopefully they'll overcome the lobbying of the veterinary-medicine-for-profit model and ban this barbarity.

Despite what certain people claim it's not about removing a toenail; the procedure involves removing the last joint of the cat's bone (the third phalanx). Feel free to snip off your own toe joints, leave the cats' alone.
It also frequently makes cats more aggressive.

It's ******* unnecessary; clipping, scratching posts, distractions or claw caps work without mutilating the poor animal.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:53 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Clearly, you have never been owned by a cat.
We were sitting five of the little buggers last weekend (plus an elderly and unwell dog).
At least there were supposed to be five of them, we never found them together. It might be a scam to get more food....
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's ******* unnecessary; clipping, scratching posts, distractions or claw caps work without mutilating the poor animal.
Nobody claimed it was necessary. It is most definitely a question of convenience, as is enslaving owning a pet in the first place. And regardless of what you do, with claws the animal could harm you or someone who comes over in your home, etc. I say, leave the choice to the owner. It's their responsibility.

As for it being "barbaric", that too is a recent development. If appeal to tradition is a fallacy, so is an appeal to ongoing changes. If you feel it's wrong, then don't do it. Just don't force others into your own mindset.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:23 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nobody claimed it was necessary. It is most definitely a question of convenience, as is enslaving owning a pet in the first place. And regardless of what you do, with claws the animal could harm you or someone who comes over in your home, etc. I say, leave the choice to the owner. It's their responsibility.



As for it being "barbaric", that too is a recent development. If appeal to tradition is a fallacy, so is an appeal to ongoing changes. If you feel it's wrong, then don't do it. Just don't force others into your own mindset.
And remove their teeth as well as they could bite someone?
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:24 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And remove their teeth as well as they could bite someone?
I'm sure you think there's a parallel, there. I assure you, there's not.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:40 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure you think there's a parallel, there. I assure you, there's not.
Just following the "logic" of your argument. If you use "can hurt people" as a premise for declawing then starting with the same premise "can hurt people" you would be OK with people removing a cat's teeth because they can hurt people with their teeth.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:53 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just following the "logic" of your argument.
You're over-simplifying the logic, as I'm sure you know perfectly. It's a sort of reductionist absurdity that you often use in a way that's completely counter-productive. And since you can clearly function in the real world, I doubt you're actually confused by these things.

It's not that they can hurt people, it's that they frequently do, in addition to regular damage to furniture etc.. They bite only very rarely, same as dogs.

In any case you're all missing the most important point: let the owners deal with their pets. Declawing you might disagree with, but it's not cruelty.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:08 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're over-simplifying the logic, as I'm sure you know perfectly. It's a sort of reductionist absurdity that you often use in a way that's completely counter-productive. And since you can clearly function in the real world, I doubt you're actually confused by these things.



It's not that they can hurt people, it's that they frequently do, in addition to regular damage to furniture etc.. They bite only very rarely, same as dogs.



In any case you're all missing the most important point: let the owners deal with their pets. Declawing you might disagree with, but it's not cruelty.
It's hardly my fault that you come up with such a simplistic premise in which to determine what body alterations are OK. If you don't like the consequences of adopting your premise then perhaps change it? .

As for.harm, cats frequently bite people. I doubt there is anyone involved in cat rescue etc. that hasn't been bit by a cat. And a bite from a cat is pretty much guaranteed to become infected.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:19 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's hardly my fault that you come up with such a simplistic premise in which to determine what body alterations are OK.
The only thing simplistic about it is what you did with it. I'm not responsible for your interpretations. The point is clear: a cat clawing at things is a regular occurance. Biting is not. Plus, cats need teeth to eat, so if you want your cat alive-- wait, why am I still expaining the basic facts of life to you?

Quote:
As for.harm, cats frequently bite people.
Depends what you mean by frequently. If you mean, country-wide, I'm sure. Individual cats, however, no.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:28 AM   #108
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This is another one of those bizarre things where the US differs from the rest of the western world (just like with circumcision).

Declaw them because they might scratch my furniture or one of my family? Really, a cat scratch - oh boo hoo! Seriously? Yeah, I've been scratched, the kids have been scratched, just like I've occasionally banged my elbow on the furniture. Big deal. I mean, a cat scratch, seriously?

Have always had cats since I had my own home. Never had furniture scratched (as a kid our dog wrecked the furniture) - they have a dig at the carpet occasionally but a quick shout or flick of the hand dissuades them and they go off to find all the things outside they can sharpen their claws on.

Outside? Oh yes, absolutely. All our cats (we currently have 3 but have had more) are free to come and go as they please (it's enough they let us live in their house) through the cat flap.

Totally bemused at the idea of keeping a cat indoors - I know it goes on and I guess I don't have really strong views (and don't expect others to be swayed by my views) but its alien to me. If I was going to adopt the words of another poster I'd say they're 'supposed' to be outside . If I lived somewhere where a cat could not go outside I wouldn't have a cat. Then again, my mentality on cats is if it lives indoors, has no claws, doesn't go out hunting, it's not a cat*. I like cats because they are semi wild - it's like a little window onto nature.

*My sister had a Blue Persian 'cat' once - it couldn't jump to save it's life and was so fluffy it couldn't keep itself clean and wasn't allowed outside because it wouldn't be able to look after itself. Not a cat.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nobody claimed it was necessary. It is most definitely a question of convenience, as is enslaving owning a pet in the first place. And regardless of what you do, with claws the animal could harm you or someone who comes over in your home, etc. I say, leave the choice to the owner. It's their responsibility.

As for it being "barbaric", that too is a recent development. If appeal to tradition is a fallacy, so is an appeal to ongoing changes. If you feel it's wrong, then don't do it. Just don't force others into your own mindset.
Bolding mine...

Isn't declawing a relatively recent development. The main purpose of 'keeping' cats was to keep mice / rats etc down. They wouldn't be much use for that declawed.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
This is another one of those bizarre things where the US differs from the rest of the western world
So, to summarise your post: People are different from me? How bizarre!

Yes, different people treat things differently.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Bolding mine...

Isn't declawing a relatively recent development. The main purpose of 'keeping' cats was to keep mice / rats etc down. They wouldn't be much use for that declawed.
Oh, if you go back even further, sure. No doubt about that.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So, to summarise your post: People are different from me? How bizarre!

Yes, different people treat things differently.



Oh, if you go back even further, sure. No doubt about that.
Not quite, when an attitude differs from most common comparators then it may be deemed worthy of comment or even 'unusual' or, at an extreme end 'bizarre'. That does not necessarily mean wrong, just different from the 'norm' (where norm would be what the attitude is in a majority of similar countries).

I find that interesting. At least interesting enough to post about. I'm not seeking to change your views as our respective cultural norms are probably too ingrained for that, simply expressing my attitude and commenting on the difference - because it find it interesting how these things can develop so differently in ostensibly similar societies. Just like I find the male circumcision thing 'bizarre' from my cultural (and anyone's scientific / logical) viewpoint.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:43 AM   #112
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Oh and yes, fair cop, I was being disparaging with my 'cat scratch' comment because....

..well, seriously, you'd pay for an operation on your cat because the odd scratch bothers you that much?

Yup, to me, bizarre.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Oh and yes, fair cop, I was being disparaging with my 'cat scratch' comment because....

..well, seriously, you'd pay for an operation on your cat because the odd scratch bothers you that much?

Yup, to me, bizarre.
Fair enough. Plenty of people do things I consider bizarre. I mentioned clipping a dog's tail, as an example. My main point here is that bizarre shouldn't mean that it must be banned or made impossible to get.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:47 AM   #114
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If you ask the cat whether it would prefer to lose its claws or its balls which would it pick? We're already altering these animals (which our ancestors bred into existence by domesticating them) to suit our convenience. Why are some alterations acceptable and others not?

I could see an argument for cruelty based on the cat knowing it had had claws and then been deprived of them, but suppose we get good at genetic engineering and create breeds of cats that never develop claws at all? Would that be cruel to the cats born without claws?
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:02 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And remove their teeth as well as they could bite someone?
And don't forget dogs. They injure far more people (about eight times as many based on some studies), are far more likely to injure children and inflict more serious injuries.
Time for dogs to be de-toothed.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:03 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure you think there's a parallel, there. I assure you, there's not.

You may wish to deny the parallel, to support your beliefs, but it is there. As is the one with dogs.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:04 AM   #117
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bans solve everything
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:09 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
This is another one of those bizarre things where the US differs from the rest of the western world (just like with circumcision).
And I suspect for similar monetary reasons.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Declaw them because they might scratch my furniture or one of my family? Really, a cat scratch - oh boo hoo! Seriously? Yeah, I've been scratched, the kids have been scratched, just like I've occasionally banged my elbow on the furniture. Big deal. I mean, a cat scratch, seriously?
This. Provide them (we have a Bengal, a usually rather obstreperous breed) with suitable objects to scratch, train them not to scratch furnishings and don't do stupid things with them.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Have always had cats since I had my own home. Never had furniture scratched (as a kid our dog wrecked the furniture) - they have a dig at the carpet occasionally but a quick shout or flick of the hand dissuades them and they go off to find all the things outside they can sharpen their claws on.
Exactly.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Outside? Oh yes, absolutely. All our cats (we currently have 3 but have had more) are free to come and go as they please (it's enough they let us live in their house) through the cat flap.
Yep, Leonard comes and goes freely. He's never scratched furniture, other than carpets when digging in to stretch, and has alternatives.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Totally bemused at the idea of keeping a cat indoors - I know it goes on and I guess I don't have really strong views (and don't expect others to be swayed by my views) but its alien to me. If I was going to adopt the words of another poster I'd say they're 'supposed' to be outside . If I lived somewhere where a cat could not go outside I wouldn't have a cat. Then again, my mentality on cats is if it lives indoors, has no claws, doesn't go out hunting, it's not a cat*. I like cats because they are semi wild - it's like a little window onto nature.
To be fair, parts of the US are unfriendly to small animals with rabies and predators (human and animal).
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:23 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So, to summarise your post:
Oh, if you go back even further, sure. No doubt about that.
Declawing in the US is a post-WW2 development that only become common since the late 1960s.
Scratching posts were commercially available in the 1930s.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:25 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If you ask the cat whether it would prefer to lose its claws or its balls which would it pick? We're already altering these animals (which our ancestors bred into existence by domesticating them) to suit our convenience. Why are some alterations acceptable and others not?

I could see an argument for cruelty based on the cat knowing it had had claws and then been deprived of them, but suppose we get good at genetic engineering and create breeds of cats that never develop claws at all? Would that be cruel to the cats born without claws?
We're already doing things to dogs by selective breeding that are pretty horrific.


Now I have to go, Leonard wants to play...
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