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Tags Naval incidents , US-Russia relations

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Old 7th June 2019, 10:50 AM   #1
Planigale
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RUSSIA/US Warship - Nearly Collide in Philippine Sea

US cruiser nearly gets itself rammed by Russian destroyer. For anyone familiar with sailing the US vessel was clearly the give way vessel it was approaching the Russian vessel on the Russian''s Portside and the Russian vessel was on the starboard side of the USN cruiser. The Russian vessel was the stand on vessel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48553568

The USN should have made a clear and early turn to pass behind the Russian, instead it tried to slip across in front. This is very reminiscent of previous collisions that Pacific fleet vessels have been involved with but then they have been hit by much bigger Merchant vessels that did not have the manoeuvrability of the Russian destroyer that was only just able to avoid the collision.

The officer of the watch should be disciplined as should the skipper. It is bad enough that the US paints its buoys differently from everyone else, but it now appears they have decided to have their own rules of the road.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:55 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
US cruiser nearly gets itself rammed by Russian destroyer. For anyone familiar with sailing the US vessel was clearly the give way vessel it was approaching the Russian vessel on the Russian''s Portside and the Russian vessel was on the starboard side of the USN cruiser. The Russian vessel was the stand on vessel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48553568

The USN should have made a clear and early turn to pass behind the Russian, instead it tried to slip across in front. This is very reminiscent of previous collisions that Pacific fleet vessels have been involved with but then they have been hit by much bigger Merchant vessels that did not have the manoeuvrability of the Russian destroyer that was only just able to avoid the collision.

The officer of the watch should be disciplined as should the skipper. It is bad enough that the US paints its buoys differently from everyone else, but it now appears they have decided to have their own rules of the road.
Well, it is terribly early to be calling for such drastic measures.

After all, I just heard that the US ship was under restricted navigation because it was recovering a helicopter at the time.

By the way, when I was in the US Navy many years ago, the former USSR Navy sometimes played the same sort of games with the US Navy in order to deliberately cause international incidents.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #3
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RUSSIA/US Warship - Nearly Collide in Philippine Sea

Russian and American warships 'nearly collide'?

According to Russians, American ship cut in front of them?

According to the Americans, the Russian ship made dangerous maneuver.

CNN article says the video/photos were taken from American Ship.

If true, the Russian ship's wake at 2:28 looks fairly straight. Doesn't look at all like the aerial photograph accompanying.


https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CgkjY_1559916206

CNN Article for more info:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/polit...ntl/index.html
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:01 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
US cruiser nearly gets itself rammed by Russian destroyer. For anyone familiar with sailing the US vessel was clearly the give way vessel it was approaching the Russian vessel on the Russian''s Portside and the Russian vessel was on the starboard side of the USN cruiser. The Russian vessel was the stand on vessel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48553568

The USN should have made a clear and early turn to pass behind the Russian, instead it tried to slip across in front. This is very reminiscent of previous collisions that Pacific fleet vessels have been involved with but then they have been hit by much bigger Merchant vessels that did not have the manoeuvrability of the Russian destroyer that was only just able to avoid the collision.

The officer of the watch should be disciplined as should the skipper. It is bad enough that the US paints its buoys differently from everyone else, but it now appears they have decided to have their own rules of the road.
@ :07 Legacy glass, Russkie bitches!
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Russian and American warships 'nearly collide'?

According to Russians, American ship cut in front of them?

According to the Americans, the Russian ship made dangerous maneuver.

CNN article says the video/photos were taken from American Ship.

If true, the Russian ship's wake at 2:28 looks fairly straight. Doesn't look at all like the aerial photograph accompanying.


https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CgkjY_1559916206

CNN Article for more info:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/polit...ntl/index.html

Pssssst.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=336846
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, it is terribly early to be calling for such drastic measures.

After all, I just heard that the US ship was under restricted navigation because it was recovering a helicopter at the time.

By the way, when I was in the US Navy many years ago, the former USSR Navy sometimes played the same sort of games with the US Navy in order to deliberately cause international incidents.
I am absolutely sure both sides play the game. But that is the game. The Russkies forced the USN into a bad position. A USN frigate should have been sitting on the the starboard side of the Russian to force it to give way. If the cruiser had crossed the Russkies stern it could not only have given a broadside but gained the right of way.

It was showing neither the shapes nor the lights for restricted navigation. (though there is limited imaging)
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:07 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, it is terribly early to be calling for such drastic measures.

After all, I just heard that the US ship was under restricted navigation because it was recovering a helicopter at the time.

By the way, when I was in the US Navy many years ago, the former USSR Navy sometimes played the same sort of games with the US Navy in order to deliberately cause international incidents.
Drastic? Captains get fired fairly regularly.
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Old 7th June 2019, 12:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If true, the Russian ship's wake at 2:28 looks fairly straight. Doesn't look at all like the aerial photograph accompanying.
That is...a rather dramatically incorrect statement; the wake as depicted at 2:28 is fully consistent with the FLIR image.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:20 PM   #9
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File Type: jpg russian-us-navy-collision.jpg (138.2 KB, 19 views)
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:29 PM   #10
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:04 PM   #11
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Snip.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:33 PM   #12
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If I were Russia, I'd seriously consider ordering all Russian Navy vessels to press right of way decisions on every USN ship they encounter.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:44 PM   #13
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How can the US vessel have been at fault? the Russian vessel was clearly the passing ship.

We got hit by a Krivak off Iceland when we were shadowing the Kiev in exactly the same circumstances, the Russian ship we were standing on a straight course and they came up exactly like in the video, Our skipper had bigger balls than the captain of this US ship and stood on course and the Russian hit us. It was the first time I heard Zulu hatches piped. Heck of a bang and screech.
It's as much your responsibility to stand on course in such situations as it is for the passing ship to stand away.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 7th June 2019 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I were Russia, I'd seriously consider ordering all Russian Navy vessels to press right of way decisions on every USN ship they encounter.
If I were the USA I would seriously consider telling ships captains to follow the regs and stand on course if being passed by another ship.

Old Ark Royal got hit by a Russian in the 70s. They were recovering aircraft and the shadowing Russian destroyer came up alongside and tried to do exactly what happened in the video, they hit the ark port side forward and bounced off.
There are some photographs somewhere of the deck crew looking down over the rail at the russian tub as it hit and limped away.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 7th June 2019 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How can the US vessel have been at fault? the Russian vessel was clearly the passing ship.

We got hit by a Krivak off Iceland when we were shadowing the Kiev in exactly the same circumstances, the Russian ship we were standing on a straight course and they came up exactly like in the video, Our skipper had bigger balls than the captain of this US ship and stood on course and the Russian hit us. It was the first time I heard Zulu hatches piped. Heck of a bang and screech.
It's as much your responsibility to stand on course in such situations as it is for the passing ship to stand away.
I'll leave the question of who's at fault to the insurance adjusters and maritime lawyers.

My question is, was this collision the result of a sober decision by the US skipper? Or was the US bridge crew simply not competent to assess the situation and take the best course of action to safeguard their vessel?
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Old 7th June 2019, 04:59 PM   #16
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Their responsibility is to stand on their course if that is the right thing to do.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If I were the USA I would seriously consider telling ships captains to follow the regs and stand on course if being passed by another ship.

Old Ark Royal got hit by a Russian in the 70s. They were recovering aircraft and the shadowing Russian destroyer came up alongside and tried to do exactly what happened in the video, they hit the ark port side forward and bounced off.
There are some photographs somewhere of the deck crew looking down over the rail at the russian tub as it hit and limped away.
It seems clear that that the USN is currently suffering a substantial variance between what they're telling their sailors, and what those sailors are competent to do.

If I were the USN, I'd be thinking way beyond mere telling people what to do.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Their responsibility is to stand on their course if that is the right thing to do.
If.

What happens when standing on their course is the "right of way" thing to do, but will result in loss of the ship and loss of life?
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:11 PM   #19
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Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:45 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
572 is the Russian. They aren't exactly on a tack anyhow, as not sailing vessels.
I did enjoy the sunbathing Russians on the heli-deck in the longer version of the video.
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
That would be the Russian ship

USS Chancellorville is CG-62
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Old 7th June 2019, 05:56 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
That would be the Russian ship

USS Chancellorville is CG-62

I'm expecting: "Well in that case, that ship is clearly in the wrong!"

(Perhaps spoken in a childlike, yet imperious, tone of voice.)
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:02 PM   #23
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If China really did deserve those waters they'd be able to stop other kids from roughhousing in them.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
572 is the Russian. They aren't exactly on a tack anyhow, as not sailing vessels.
I did enjoy the sunbathing Russians on the heli-deck in the longer version of the video.
Well, those are the rules, even if they did originate in the sailing era.


If you're in a 20 foot sailboat, technically you could force a tanker a thousand times your size to tack away, but in practice they could run over you without even noticing, so you don't.



In this case, the vessels are of a similar size, so I don't blame the Russians insisting that the Americans tack away.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:11 PM   #25
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If played at sea does a game of chicken become a game of duck?
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
In this case, the vessels are of a similar size, so I don't blame the Russians insisting that the Americans tack away.
You've contradicted yourself. First you assumed 572 was the American ship and stated they were in the wrong.
Having been corrected, you still insist the Americans were in the wrong.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You've contradicted yourself. First you assumed 572 was the American ship and stated they were in the wrong.
Having been corrected, you still insist the Americans were in the wrong.
Look, whatever the facts of the matter may be, the American ship was definitely in the wrong - how hard is this to understand?
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
If you're in a 20 foot sailboat, technically you could force a tanker a thousand times your size to tack away, but in practice they could run over you without even noticing, so you don't.
No, because vessels over a certain size are considered to be restricted in their navigation, which is a condition that gives right-of-way even over sailing vessels.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You've contradicted yourself. First you assumed 572 was the American ship and stated they were in the wrong.
Having been corrected, you still insist the Americans were in the wrong.
Yes, looking back at my post I see I misspoke. The starboard tack was always in the wrong, regardless if it was Russian or American, sorry I wrote it down wrong.



In this case, since I now know that 572 is the Russian, they were in the right by maritime law, they were on port tack, it's not about wind direction, they were heading left (port) in relation to the other vessel.

Last edited by Marcus; 7th June 2019 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No, because vessels over a certain size are considered to be restricted in their navigation, which is a condition that gives right-of-way even over sailing vessels.
Okay, I guess that makes sense. Do you know what size that is?
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Old 7th June 2019, 06:46 PM   #31
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Okay, I'll shut up now, here are the actual,rules: https://maritime.college/Boating-Rul...me-College.php
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Old 7th June 2019, 07:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Okay, I guess that makes sense. Do you know what size that is?
No.

But, I also know that as both of these ships are similar size, this particular rule isn't relevant to this situation.

I think the most relevant rule is the overtaking rule, which overrides all other rules and says an overtaking vessel MUST keep clear of the vessel being overtaken.

The Russian ship is definitely the overtaking vessel here. This is not a crossing situation (which the OP presumes) because the Russian ship is clearly coming from behind the American ship's beam. Rule 13d makes it clear that an overtaking vessel doesn't suddenly become a crossing vessel just because it gets in front of the overtaken vessel's beam in the course of overtaking it.
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Old 7th June 2019, 08:43 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Look, whatever the facts of the matter may be, the American ship was definitely in the wrong - how hard is this to understand?
Hogwash! Give way?!! To the Russkies?!! They'll see the big board!!!
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Old 7th June 2019, 09:58 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If played at sea does a game of chicken become a game of duck?
nope.

this is a game of ducks:

https://twitter.com/ducksarchives/st...61449595576321
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:03 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How can the US vessel have been at fault? the Russian vessel was clearly the passing ship.

We got hit by a Krivak off Iceland when we were shadowing the Kiev in exactly the same circumstances, the Russian ship we were standing on a straight course and they came up exactly like in the video, Our skipper had bigger balls than the captain of this US ship and stood on course and the Russian hit us. It was the first time I heard Zulu hatches piped. Heck of a bang and screech.
It's as much your responsibility to stand on course in such situations as it is for the passing ship to stand away.
The Russian vessel only passes once it has taken evasive action. If you look at the preceding images they were crossing the Russian then turns hard to starboard, then overtakes.

All vessels have a duty to avoid collisions being the stand on vessel does not mean the correct or lawful thing is to stand on if that will result in a collision and endanger life.

Last edited by Planigale; 7th June 2019 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 7th June 2019, 10:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No, because vessels over a certain size are considered to be restricted in their navigation, which is a condition that gives right-of-way even over sailing vessels.
This is not true; merely being big does not mean you are restricted in ability to manoeuvre. It may be true in a traffic lane or coastal waters; not in the middle of the Pacific.

The useful rule is the red light means stop, the green light go. So if you see the red, port navigation light then that is the stand on vessel and you are the give way vessel. (If you see the stern light then you are potentially the overtaking vessel).
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The Russian vessel only passes once it has taken evasive action.
At the start of the video, the camera is definitely looking back (abaft) at the Russian ship, which proceeds to close rapidly because it is traveling at a slightly higher speed. It is clearly trying to race the American ship to the point of intercept so it can claim it was impeded.

There's no rule of navigation that says you have to stop to let a ship coming up on your stern quarter to pass. Such a rule would defy all common sense. Since it started out behind the American ship, the Russian ship had an obligation to cross behind it, not try to race and cross ahead of it like Clark Kent trying to jump the railroad tracks in front of the train.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:02 PM   #38
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Lucky it wasn't a Coastguard Lighthouse!
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Old 8th June 2019, 12:40 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Lucky it wasn't a Coastguard Lighthouse!
The well told story of the USN warship vs the light ship; and who should give way!
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Old 8th June 2019, 12:56 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The Russian vessel only passes once it has taken evasive action. If you look at the preceding images they were crossing the Russian then turns hard to starboard, then overtakes.

All vessels have a duty to avoid collisions being the stand on vessel does not mean the correct or lawful thing is to stand on if that will result in a collision and endanger life.
The image alfaniner posted in the other thread on this subject shows both vessels on a closing collision course. The Russian vessel appears to be the first to blink and vear to starboard to avoid collision.

Both captains are at fault as this incident is clearly an antagonist game of chicken. I drive a 5m runabout and a similarly sized vessel for volunteer river patrol. Even in a restricted area of a river or a harbour, I would not come as close to another vessel as these two did.
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