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Tags Naval incidents , US-Russia relations

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Old 8th June 2019, 02:17 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
US cruiser nearly gets itself rammed by Russian destroyer. For anyone familiar with sailing the US vessel was clearly the give way vessel it was approaching the Russian vessel on the Russian''s Portside and the Russian vessel was on the starboard side of the USN cruiser. The Russian vessel was the stand on vessel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-48553568

The USN should have made a clear and early turn to pass behind the Russian, instead it tried to slip across in front. This is very reminiscent of previous collisions that Pacific fleet vessels have been involved with but then they have been hit by much bigger Merchant vessels that did not have the manoeuvrability of the Russian destroyer that was only just able to avoid the collision.

The officer of the watch should be disciplined as should the skipper. It is bad enough that the US paints its buoys differently from everyone else, but it now appears they have decided to have their own rules of the road.
When did the US navy become patsies for the Russians.

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Old 8th June 2019, 02:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
They are not sailing ships and the vessel being overhauled has right of way whatever the 'tack'
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Starboard tack has right of way. Assuming that vessel with 572 on the side is the American vessel, they are clearly in the wrong.
No, this only applies to sailing ships..


With ocean going vessels

• “In a crossing situation, the vessel which has the other to port has right of way.”

• “In an overtaking situation, the vessel being overtaken has the right of way.”


https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...-has-right-way

This was an overtaking situation... the Russian skipper was in the wrong.
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:58 AM   #44
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It was a regular game in the Cold War

Yorktown being hit by a Russian Destroyer in 88



Ark Royal just after being hit by a Russian Frigate in 70



USS Caron being hit by a Russian Frigate view from the Russian




Exactly the dame situations as this new one. Russian overtakes and swings in to try and cause the target to veer.

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Old 9th June 2019, 09:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It was a regular game in the Cold War

Yorktown being hit by a Russian Destroyer in 88



Ark Royal just after being hit by a Russian Frigate in 70


USS Caron being hit by a Russian Frigate view from the Russian


Exactly the dame situations as this new one. Russian overtakes and swings in to try and cause the target to veer.
The Ol' Dame Judi Dench manoeuvre, eh?!
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Their responsibility is to stand on their course if that is the right thing to do.
What???
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
At the start of the video, the camera is definitely looking back (abaft) at the Russian ship, which proceeds to close rapidly because it is traveling at a slightly higher speed. It is clearly trying to race the American ship to the point of intercept so it can claim it was impeded.

There's no rule of navigation that says you have to stop to let a ship coming up on your stern quarter to pass. Such a rule would defy all common sense. Since it started out behind the American ship, the Russian ship had an obligation to cross behind it, not try to race and cross ahead of it like Clark Kent trying to jump the railroad tracks in front of the train.
Wrong. You're viewing it in the framework of the video and the near-incident. There is a much larger field of play, here. The Russian vessel was, relative to the US vessel, moving on an angle. But the US vessel, relative to the Russian vessel is also approaching at an angle. There are no absolutes as to which is going "straight on" because there are no lanes drawn on the ocean.

The standard rules of the sea are rather simple. The Russian ship was "crossing" from the starboard side. From a thousand meters away, the Americans could see it and were required to stand down. The ships shouldn't have come within five hundred feet of each other.

The rules are written from the captain or master p.o.v.: A ship crossing from your starboard (stage right) has the right of way. The Americans seem to have rewritten this rule in the Pacific Fleet in recent years. They now go by Fast and Furious Rules... "Hey, I've got more horses under the hood, that homeboy's not gonna outrun me!"

@Captain Swoop...... Really? You're giving the USN a bad name.
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, this only applies to sailing ships..


With ocean going vessels

• “In a crossing situation, the vessel which has the other to port has right of way.”

• “In an overtaking situation, the vessel being overtaken has the right of way.”


https://www.usni.org/magazines/proce...-has-right-way

This was an overtaking situation... the Russian skipper was in the wrong.
This was NOT an overtaking situation. It became one because the Americans broke the rules and turned it into one for a few hundred meters.

This was a CROSSING situation. The Russians had the right of way. Only when it became obvious that the Americans intended to stay powered up did it become "overtaking". Overtaking refers to two vessels on the same course, more or less. This was not the case.
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Old 9th June 2019, 10:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This was a CROSSING situation. The Russians had the right of way. Only when it became obvious that the Americans intended to stay powered up did it become "overtaking". Overtaking refers to two vessels on the same course, more or less. This was not the case.
Overtaking refers to any situation in which the trailing ship is 22 degrees or more abaft the leading ship's beam, which I would argue the Russian ship visually very definitely is at the beginning of the video. The particular course doesn't matter.

Quote:
(b). A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c). When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and
act accordingly.

(d). Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
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Old 9th June 2019, 11:29 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Overtaking refers to any situation in which the trailing ship is 22 degrees or more abaft the leading ship's beam, which I would argue the Russian ship visually very definitely is at the beginning of the video. The particular course doesn't matter.

Hilited: The beginning of the video is not the beginning of the situation. By the time the video starts, the Russians were just going into "prevent collision mode'.

22o is rather small. More pertinent is the "abaft" part. And we have no indications of the speed or direction of the two ships other than in the video. By the time we see the two ships next to each other, the Russians have cut hard to starboard, which is what they're required to do to avoid collision. Look at the wakes. The US ship did not cut hard to port; that is what they are required to do. They had to reverse engines because they misjudged and didn't have time to turn to port. But those moves apply only to "avoiding an imminent collision, which occurred only because of what happened prior to the video.

Whether or not the Russians were in the abaft position is moot. That refers to operating in close. In this situation they should have been on the radio. The Russians were proceeding across the path, from the starboard side, of the American vessel. Their assumption, even if they're "playing chicken" is that the Americans will obey the rules of the road and cut back on speed to allow them safe crossing. This would be visible to the naked eye from more than a kilometer away. It would've been discernible from their bridge from much more, plus they can determine relative speed, which definitely comes into play.

The Americans should have stood down long before the question of overtaking comes into play. The only explanation is that they thought, as in two recent mishaps in the Pacific, that they had more power and speed and could shoot the gap before the Russian ship got there. A bunch of us got into this same discussion on the previous mishap (with the Philippine captain) and my contention then is the same as now. The Americans think the ocean is the Ponderosa and they're free to ride the range as they see fit. PacFleet is a bunch of cowboys and has been for two decades.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited: The beginning of the video is not the beginning of the situation. By the time the video starts, the Russians were just going into "prevent collision mode'.
That hardly matters because since the Russian ship gains on the US ship through the entire video until it passes, the Russian ship can only have been even further behind the US ship before the video started.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
22o is rather small. More pertinent is the "abaft" part. And we have no indications of the speed or direction of the two ships other than in the video.
"Abaft" simply means "behind". 22 degrees abaft the beam IS fairly small, and can best be described as "noticeably further back than halfway alongside". At the beginning of the video, regardless of the distance or speed, the camera is clearly looking back toward the Russian ship, not directly sideways at it. It's overtaking.

It doesn't even make sense to say that a vessel should have to yield to someone coming from a point behind it.
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:43 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
This was NOT an overtaking situation. It became one because the Americans broke the rules and turned it into one for a few hundred meters.

This was a CROSSING situation. The Russians had the right of way. Only when it became obvious that the Americans intended to stay powered up did it become "overtaking". Overtaking refers to two vessels on the same course, more or less. This was not the case.

Nope

http://www.professionalmariner.com/A...-ship-will-do/

Rules quoted here are COLREGS (The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea)

Rule 13: “any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.”

Rule 13(b):" “a vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam,”

Rule 13 (c): “when a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.”

Rule 13(d): “any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.”


The Russian vessel was clearly further abaft than 22.5° of the American vessel's starboard beam. It might even have be broad on the Starboard quarter before any of this started. That is clearly an overtaking position not a crossing position, and no changes of course by either an approaching vessel or a vessel being overtaken can turn an overtaking situation into a crossing one.

The Russian vessel was at fault.


ETA: to clarify



If this is the American vessel and..

1. The Russian ship is in a direction in front of the green line (to the left as you view it) then it is a crossing maneuvre
2. The Russian ship is in a direction behind the green line (to the right as you view it) then it is an overtaking maneuvre
3. The Russian ship begins behind the green line then moves in front of the green line, it REMAINS an overtaking maneuvre
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:50 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Wrong. You're viewing it in the framework of the video and the near-incident. There is a much larger field of play, here. The Russian vessel was, relative to the US vessel, moving on an angle. But the US vessel, relative to the Russian vessel is also approaching at an angle. There are no absolutes as to which is going "straight on" because there are no lanes drawn on the ocean.

The standard rules of the sea are rather simple. The Russian ship was "crossing" from the starboard side. From a thousand meters away, the Americans could see it and were required to stand down. The ships shouldn't have come within five hundred feet of each other.

The rules are written from the captain or master p.o.v.: A ship crossing from your starboard (stage right) has the right of way. The Americans seem to have rewritten this rule in the Pacific Fleet in recent years. They now go by Fast and Furious Rules... "Hey, I've got more horses under the hood, that homeboy's not gonna outrun me!"

@Captain Swoop...... Really? You're giving the USN a bad name.
Letting the Russians get away with their old tricks is giving the US Navy a bad name.

Lots of 'interpretation going on but the Russians are good at this game. Stand on and if they are the overtaking vessels it doesn't matter who is 'at an angle' to who or who is on the starboard side of whoever.

As I posted it used to be a ragular game. We never backed down, it sets a precedent.

What happens next time they do it and the time after that?

they will bully the US navy out of any waters they want to dominate with the same manoeuvre.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:18 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope

http://www.professionalmariner.com/A...-ship-will-do/

Rules quoted here are COLREGS (The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea)

Rule 13: “any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.”

Rule 13(b):" “a vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam,”

Rule 13 (c): “when a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.”

Rule 13(d): “any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.”


The Russian vessel was clearly further abaft than 22.5° of the American vessel's starboard beam. It might even have be broad on the Starboard quarter before any of this started. That is clearly an overtaking position not a crossing position, and no changes of course by either an approaching vessel or a vessel being overtaken can turn an overtaking situation into a crossing one.

The Russian vessel was at fault.


ETA: to clarify

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1faqwwfpld...ings.png?raw=1

If this is the American vessel and..

1. The Russian ship is in a direction in front of the green line (to the left as you view it) then it is a crossing maneuvre
2. The Russian ship is in a direction behind the green line (to the right as you view it) then it is an overtaking maneuvre
3. The Russian ship begins behind the green line then moves in front of the green line, it REMAINS an overtaking maneuvre
We're just gonna have to wait and see if anyone puts together the pings to cover the positions over the previous half-hour to hour. 'Cuz your idea of clearly more than 22.5 degrees looks to be a smidgen less to me.

They were, no doubt, playing games with each other, so the speed of the vessels is going to be important. At some distance the 22.5 degrees is not going to be applicable, but I can't find reference to it. Did they both maintain the same tack? Any change in direction effects the angle of approach.

I doubt this is going to get the interest of the courts because no one's claiming damages, so I'm not sure if we ever get an accurate plotting of where the vessels were. History, according to Captain Swoop,would lean to the Russians pushing the envelope. History, according to the maritime courts in the Pacific says "don't trust what the Americans claim". Not the same commander as on the previous examples but cowboyism is rampant.

What we're seeing on the video is far too late in the scenario. What happened before that is key. If the Russian vessel was abeam of the American vessel, at any distance, the Americans only needed to turn a few degrees to port to put it at the magic 22 degree mark.

Again, I can find nothing in COLREGs as to the distance between the vessels before you apply the overtaking scenario. From the action in the video and the overhead shots they may or may not have been above 22 degrees.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:43 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What we're seeing on the video is far too late in the scenario. What happened before that is key. If the Russian vessel was abeam of the American vessel, at any distance, the Americans only needed to turn a few degrees to port to put it at the magic 22 degree mark.
But we can't assume facts not in evidence. Not even the Russian side has claimed that the American ship turned away at any point, before or during the video.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:48 AM   #56
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What are the rules for when the "give way" vessel isn't giving way in time? Is the "stand on" vessel required to stand on to the point of collision? Or do the rules allow the stand on vessel to give way at some point?
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Old 10th June 2019, 12:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We're just gonna have to wait and see if anyone puts together the pings to cover the positions over the previous half-hour to hour. 'Cuz your idea of clearly more than 22.5 degrees looks to be a smidgen less to me.

They were, no doubt, playing games with each other, so the speed of the vessels is going to be important. At some distance the 22.5 degrees is not going to be applicable, but I can't find reference to it. Did they both maintain the same tack? Any change in direction effects the angle of approach.

I doubt this is going to get the interest of the courts because no one's claiming damages, so I'm not sure if we ever get an accurate plotting of where the vessels were. History, according to Captain Swoop,would lean to the Russians pushing the envelope. History, according to the maritime courts in the Pacific says "don't trust what the Americans claim". Not the same commander as on the previous examples but cowboyism is rampant.

What we're seeing on the video is far too late in the scenario. What happened before that is key. If the Russian vessel was abeam of the American vessel, at any distance, the Americans only needed to turn a few degrees to port to put it at the magic 22 degree mark.

Again, I can find nothing in COLREGs as to the distance between the vessels before you apply the overtaking scenario. From the action in the video and the overhead shots they may or may not have been above 22 degrees.


Dammit, Fmw!! This isn't some small potatoes penny-ante FedEx vs. DHL rivalry ***** . This is for the High Seas! Did you see the other vid with the Russkie fighter? That's like someone showing up at your house with an F1 car and doing a couple of burnouts on your lawn. And then driving away laughing.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:07 PM   #58
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they win both ways up. If you turn away then you chickened out and it was obviously your fault because you turned away.
¬If you don't turn away and there is a collision then it's your fault because they maneuvered to make it look like you were at fault but at least you haven't given ground and been made to look like a pussy by turning away.

That's how it used to be, that's why there were a lot of scrapes and collisions back in the 70s and 80s.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:19 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
When did the US navy become patsies for the Russians.
Probably sometime last year, when they started hitting other ships due to what are apparently widespread institutional failures of command at all levels of the fleet.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
they win both ways up. If you turn away then you chickened out and it was obviously your fault because you turned away.
I don't think it works that way.

But I'm assuming the rules actually require you to give way, if the ship that's supposed to give way refuses. Is that a valid assumption? I'm not sure yet.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:08 PM   #61
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This
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #62
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This is what happens when you name a ship after a Confederate victory.....
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This is what happens when you name a ship after a Confederate victory.....

I had no idea that the Russkies were so up on their Confederate history.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are the rules for when the "give way" vessel isn't giving way in time? Is the "stand on" vessel required to stand on to the point of collision? Or do the rules allow the stand on vessel to give way at some point?
Hmmm, I wonder if there is some clarification in the maritime rule book?

https://assets.publishing.service.go...65/msn1781.pdf

Quote:
Rule 17
Action by stand-on vessel

(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed.
(ii) The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

(b) When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:43 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Hmmm, I wonder if there is some clarification in the maritime rule book?

https://assets.publishing.service.go...65/msn1781.pdf
Good find! Thanks!

I guess if this rule is recognized, then the sailors of the US ship could still be held culpable for a collision, even if they were the stand on ship.

Which makes sense. Ultimately, the well-being of the ship must take priority, and it would be a foolish rule that demanded otherwise (as Captain Swoop seems to believe).
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:10 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are the rules for when the "give way" vessel isn't giving way in time? Is the "stand on" vessel required to stand on to the point of collision? Or do the rules allow the stand on vessel to give way at some point?
The Colregs state that if you're the captain of a vessel and believe you have right-of-way, but the other vessel doesn't appear to be acting accordingly, it's your responsibility to take action to avoid collision instead.

The Colregs don't have any punitive authority. They do not require someone who violates them to be punished for doing so. Their sole point is preventing collisions. In a situation where following the rules doesn't seem to be doing that, you're not expected to follow the rules all the way to the bottom of the ocean.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:22 PM   #66
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It all seems so silly. Collisions can easily be avoided by both vessels tacking away, regardless of who has right of way. Perhaps they are just bored.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:43 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We're just gonna have to wait and see if anyone puts together the pings to cover the positions over the previous half-hour to hour. 'Cuz your idea of clearly more than 22.5 degrees looks to be a smidgen less to me.
Rule 13 (c)

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
They were, no doubt, playing games with each other, so the speed of the vessels is going to be important. At some distance the 22.5 degrees is not going to be applicable, but I can't find reference to it.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Again, I can find nothing in COLREGs as to the distance between the vessels before you apply the overtaking scenario. From the action in the video and the overhead shots they may or may not have been above 22 degrees.
There is no set distance. Rule 13 applies when the two vessels become aware of each other and that they are potentially heading for a collision.

Again, keep Rule 13 (c) in mind

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Did they both maintain the same tack? Any change in direction effects the angle of approach.
Rule 13 (d)

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What we're seeing on the video is far too late in the scenario. What happened before that is key. If the Russian vessel was abeam of the American vessel, at any distance, the Americans only needed to turn a few degrees to port to put it at the magic 22 degree mark.
It is extremely doubtful that the US vessel would have changed course - it was in the middle of landing and recovering a helicopter; a straight and steady course must be maintained in order to do this. In fact the US vessel was forced to wave off the helicopter due to the incident.

In any case, this shot suggests that the Russian vessel changed course (very late) and the US vessel did not.



That wake appears to be at an angle of about 35-40°. Although that is difficult to tell with the elevation of the camera, it is clearly a lot more than 22.5 abaft.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:46 PM   #68
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Collisions can be avoided but when one of the vessels is deliberately trying to provoke a collision and force you to turn away and bully you out of the area what are you to do?
You can bet that now the Russians know the US ships will chicken out it will happen a lot more often
You can bet China will start to play and bully the US Navy out of the South China Sea.
It will be like the 'old days' again but this time we are going to let them win the game.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:46 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It all seems so silly. Collisions can easily be avoided by both vessels tacking away, regardless of who has right of way. Perhaps they are just bored.
This.

They could see each other with the "naked eye" (where "naked" means using binoculars) from about two kilometers. They saw each other, in detail, electronically from farther than that. At about 2 km one or the other should've tacked a couple of degrees. The Russian ship was coming from starboard. It's the portside ship's responsibility to get out of the way. A two degree turn to starboard would've put him below the Russian's path. Slowing engines would've kept him clear. (A turn to port is not recommended, unless it's a complete 90 degree turn. Any small adjustments to port still have the USN ship too close.)

They are supposed to get on the radio to each other. Apparently that wasn't done.

The "overtaking" scenario does not apply. The situation should've been rectified long before that.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:48 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It all seems so silly. Collisions can easily be avoided by both vessels tacking away, regardless of who has right of way. Perhaps they are just bored.
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
^Yes. And of course (pun intended) whether you actually had right of way in the first place, and if so if the other ship was really not acting accordingly and forced you to change your own course or speed, will be a matter of much legal and career-impacting discussion and debate long after the events themselves
The US vessel was in the midst of landing a helicopter. Changing course could end disastrously for the helicopter pilot, its crew/passengers, and the recovery crew on the helipad.

It was thoroughly irresponsible for the Russian skipper to provoke this. He MUST have been able to see that they were recovering Helo.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The Colregs state that if you're the captain of a vessel and believe you have right-of-way, but the other vessel doesn't appear to be acting accordingly, it's your responsibility to take action to avoid collision instead.

The Colregs don't have any punitive authority. They do not require someone who violates them to be punished for doing so. Their sole point is preventing collisions. In a situation where following the rules doesn't seem to be doing that, you're not expected to follow the rules all the way to the bottom of the ocean.
^Yes. And of course (pun intended) whether you actually had right of way in the first place, and if so if the other ship was really not acting accordingly and forced you to change your own course or speed, will be a matter of much legal and career-impacting discussion and debate long after the events themselves. This is a very common issue in naval court-martials and civilian reviews/litigations. As I guess it needs to be. And as already noted upthread the actual rules are fairly complicated and involve additional issues such as if either vessel had limited maneuvering capacities (e.g. engine problems, trailing fishing nets or tows, landing helicopters, etc).

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Old 10th June 2019, 04:54 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The "overtaking" scenario does not apply.
No, this is just plain incorrect.

I served 12 months "Wasp Afloat" on a NZ Navy frigate (HMNZS Canterbury). I know what an overtaking situation looks like. This was a textbook one..
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:04 PM   #73
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I have actually been in a collision with a Russian Krivak off Iceland, well in the Greenland Gap when we were shadowing the Kiev.
Close maneuvering like this was so commonplace back in the 80s that unless some contact was actually made it just got an entry in the log.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:06 PM   #74
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I learned when I had a small sailboat that one should never allow oneself to get in a situation with a large ship where who was the stand-on vessel even began to apply; to maintain enough situational awareness in advance to not enter into these situations from the very beginning. Don't play with big ships. This was different from sailboat racing, where the rules for boat to boat encounters are inherent parts of the game, everyone participating accepts that, and the risks were usually not life threatening.

Even in big ship to big ship encounters: any collision is a horrible failure no matter if one ship followed all the rules.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:09 PM   #75
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Basically it's a couple of good ol' boys wagging their dicks in each others faces and then trying to get the rest of the world to agree theirs is the biggest. No one on these ships is doing this to protect your freedom. The next time you get the urge to thank one of them for their service just remember this is the childish behaviour you're reinforcing.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I learned when I had a small sailboat that one should never allow oneself to get in a situation with a large ship where who was the stand-on vessel even began to apply; to maintain enough situational awareness in advance to not enter into these situations from the very beginning. Don't play with big ships. This was different from sailboat racing, where the rules for boat to boat encounters are inherent parts of the game, everyone participating accepts that, and the risks were usually not life threatening.

Even in big ship to big ship encounters: any collision is a horrible failure no matter if one ship followed all the rules.
Yes. I have no experience with big ships, but I do with sailboats. When the big boys are around, the rules go out the window, you just stay out of the way.
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:26 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, this is just plain incorrect.

I served 12 months "Wasp Afloat" on a NZ Navy frigate (HMNZS Canterbury). I know what an overtaking situation looks like. This was a textbook one..
And I spent decades settling marine cargo claims, many with similar scenarios to this. The difference here is that they are military vessels, but the rules of the road don't change. From several kilometers out, it should have been apparent that both maintaining their present course would bring the ships too close together.

What you first do is COMMUNICATE. Did they? We have no report on this.
If communication doesn't yield a satisfactory result the masters are both required to take actions to avoid placing the vessels and lives in imminent danger. The primary responsibility is on the vessel to port, in this case, the USN. If the stand down vessel (The Chancellorsville) is not taking action to alter its path or reduce its speed, the vessel with the right of way is required to take action to alter its course.

From your direct experience, how far out would the two vessels be from each other when they were both able to track the other effectively? The video only commences once they've closed the distance on each other.

Neither master did what was/is required. I agree that it's international swingdickery. But the initial problem was created by the give-way vessel not giving way.

All of this changes if we can see the tracks and speeds of the ships. If one captain sped up or changed bearing by a couple of degrees, it effects the findings.

From the point of the video, yes, it looks like an overtaking situation. But it was not overtaking from the onset of the incident. The two were proceeding, apparently, on straight lines. Did the USN communicate to the russkis that they were maintaining course because they were awaiting a returning chopper? If they did,the Russian vessel is at fault.

Both masters are responsible for avoiding a collision or even "near contact".
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Old 10th June 2019, 10:10 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The US vessel was in the midst of landing a helicopter. Changing course could end disastrously for the helicopter pilot, its crew/passengers, and the recovery crew on the helipad.
This is an important point, because aircraft launch and recovery operations are one of the criteria by which the colregs designate a vessel to be "restricted in ability to maneuver"; it literally cannot change course or otherwise move out of the way of another vessel even if it wanted to. Rule 18(a) says that any other power vessel must keep out of the way of a vessel so designated, even in a crossing situation.

Thus, we have two possibilities:

1. It was an overtaking situation (which I believe it was), and the Russian vessel was the overtaking vessel, in which case it was required by Rule 13 to keep out of the American vessel's way; or

2. It was a crossing situation after all, in which case the Russian vessel was still required to keep out of the American vessel's way by Rule 18 because the American vessel's aircraft operations restricted its maneuverability and thus overrode what would otherwise have been the Russian vessel's right-of-way under Rule 15.
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Old 10th June 2019, 11:36 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Collisions can be avoided but when one of the vessels is deliberately trying to provoke a collision and force you to turn away and bully you out of the area what are you to do?
You can bet that now the Russians know the US ships will chicken out it will happen a lot more often
You can bet China will start to play and bully the US Navy out of the South China Sea.
It will be like the 'old days' again but this time we are going to let them win the game.
You turn away. You are commanding $100,000,000 dollar vessel, 100s of lives. If keeping control of the seas is just about ramming things out of the way bring back Catullus, stop wasting money on missiles, put some armour on the ship, and stick a ram on the front. You slow down or you turn to starboard a few degrees so what? This is not how modern naval power works, this is about whether the skipper is seen as having the right stuff. Standing his ground, facing down the enemy, defending your turf, being gung ho, this is what it is about. Even if the skipper was a woman she would have been forced into playing the macho game.

If you are really launching or recovering a helo then you are going to make sure you are not going to be hit by something. As people have made clear relying on the Russian to make a successful avoiding manoeuvre is not a 100% sure assumption.
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Old 11th June 2019, 12:02 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope

http://www.professionalmariner.com/A...-ship-will-do/

Rules quoted here are COLREGS (The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea)

Rule 13: “any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.”

Rule 13(b):" “a vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam,”

Rule 13 (c): “when a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.”

Rule 13(d): “any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.”


The Russian vessel was clearly further abaft than 22.5° of the American vessel's starboard beam. It might even have be broad on the Starboard quarter before any of this started. That is clearly an overtaking position not a crossing position, and no changes of course by either an approaching vessel or a vessel being overtaken can turn an overtaking situation into a crossing one.

The Russian vessel was at fault.


ETA: to clarify

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1faqwwfpld...ings.png?raw=1

If this is the American vessel and..

1. The Russian ship is in a direction in front of the green line (to the left as you view it) then it is a crossing maneuvre
2. The Russian ship is in a direction behind the green line (to the right as you view it) then it is an overtaking maneuvre
3. The Russian ship begins behind the green line then moves in front of the green line, it REMAINS an overtaking maneuvre
I'd just like to add:

4. If there is any doubt whether this is an overtaking or a crossing maneuvre, the Russian ship needs to assume and act as if it were an overtaking maneuvre.

It comes from your highlights.

Russians are very clearly in the wrong.

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