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Tags Naval incidents , US-Russia relations

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Old 11th June 2019, 02:00 AM   #81
Planigale
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For the sake of argument assume that both vessels are at a 60 degree angle. The only way to know which is the overtaking vessel is to know their speeds during approach. The US vessel could easily have been the overtaking vessel. We know at the end the Russian vessel turns hard to starboard and then overtakes the US vessel on a parallel track. We do not know that they have not accelerated during this manoeuvre (there are people with experience of big ships here - is there not a danger of the Russian's stern being sucked into the US naval vessel unless she accelerates away?)
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:54 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
And I spent decades settling marine cargo claims, many with similar scenarios to this.
22.5° abaft of the starboard beam is not as much as you might imagine it to be. Go stand on on sea-front some time, and imagine you are on the starboard side of a ship, amidships. Facing abeam, put your right hand out in front of you with your fingers splayed out as far as they will go. Line up the tip of your thumb with the direction of "abeam" The tip of you little finger is on a line about 20° to 25° abaft of the starboard beam. If the Russian ship is to the right of your little finger, its an overtaking situation regardless of where it might be later - the Russian ship cannot make it into a crossing situation by getting itself in front of the line.

Also, I'm willing to bet that none of those marine cargo claim scenarios you settled involved a ship that was in the middle of carrying out flight operations, so let me explain to you what that involves (assuming the landing pad is where it usually is, at the stern, or at least aft of the superstructure.)

The ship turns head to wind, and then it must maintain a that constant course and speed. The helicopter pilot already has the challenging task of landing on a helipad that is moving away from him... he does not need the helipad also moving left and right, or speeding up and slowing down. For this reason, a ship engaged in flight operations such as landing a helicopter or an aircraft, is restricted in her ability to maneuvre, and as such has absolute right of way at all times. (Colregs Rule 18)

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The difference here is that they are military vessels, but the rules of the road don't change.
They do for flight operations - See Rule 18

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
From several kilometers out, it should have been apparent that both maintaining their present course would bring the ships too close together.
From several kilometres out, it would also have been very obvious that the US Navy vessel was engaged in recovering a Helo.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What you first do is COMMUNICATE. Did they? We have no report on this.
If communication doesn't yield a satisfactory result the masters are both required to take actions to avoid placing the vessels and lives in imminent danger. The primary responsibility is on the vessel to port, in this case, the USN. If the stand down vessel (The Chancellorsville) is not taking action to alter its path or reduce its speed, the vessel with the right of way is required to take action to alter its course.
I just flat out disagree it is by any means certain that the stand-down vessel was the US one. The fact that there is a big debate about it, and that both sides are blaming the other should tell anyone watching that there is doubt, and when there is doubt, Rule 13 (c) applies....“when a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.”

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
From your direct experience, how far out would the two vessels be from each other when they were both able to track the other effectively? The video only commences once they've closed the distance on each other.
It will depend on many may factors; day or night, weather and visibility, the size and speed of the approaching vessel. I can't speak to radar contacts because the CIC was a restricted area, I was Air Force, not Navy* so I was not authorised for entry during general operations. I could only enter for equipment maintenance and some specific operations directly related to the ships helicopter, for example during a test flight to talk to the aircrew.

Think about this for a moment. The US ship was engaged in helicopter recovery. In peacetime, or in any non-combat situation, that means slow and steady - more so if this was pilot training being undertaken. The Russian ship was catching the US one, that means the more you wind the video back, the further abaft the Russian ship will be - and for me, the more culpable that makes the Russian skipper.


*NOTE: The RNZAF and the RNZN had a peculiar arrangement during my time. The RNZN did not have an "Air Arm", i.e. it did not have any Naval Aviators. Consequenty, the Wasp helicopters used on RNZN Frigates actually belonged to, and were operated and maintained by the RNZAF. I'm not sure if that arrangement continues to be the case.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:55 AM   #83
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No, the wake of the ships will keep them apart unless the helm is deliberately put over hard very close then the 'swing' of the stern could cause a graze as a ship pivots about a point somewhere near midships.
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Old 11th June 2019, 02:57 AM   #84
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I think the mistake being made by some posters is in thinking this was some kind of negligence or an accidental incident.
It was deliberately intended by the Russian ship. it's what they do, it's what they have always done.

Back in 'my day' it was so expected that as soon as the Russian approached within a couple of miles we would have gone to Condition 'Yankee' (sailing in hazardous conditions and leaving ore entering harbour state) and closed the watertight openings on the lower deck.
If it got within a couple of cables we knew they were 'playing the game' and would be prepared for a 'Zulu' pipe. That is 'action imminent' or be prepared for a collision or hull breach and free your hands ready to 'Brace Brace Brace'.


Without the Internet we wouldn't even know about it.

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Old 11th June 2019, 03:19 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you are really launching or recovering a helo then you are going to make sure you are not going to be hit by something. As people have made clear relying on the Russian to make a successful avoiding manoeuvre is not a 100% sure assumption.
There are critical parts of the operation where you cannot turn away.

And just a technicality, but launching a Helo is a much easier (and far less dangerous) operation than recovering one. For launching, the Helo lifts off, and pretty much flies away. For landing, the pilot is trying to put an aircraft onto a piece of moving real estate that is hardly any bigger that the Helo itself.

Like this (and keep in mind the Helo here is NOT hovering).

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And here is what can happened when it goes wrong.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:26 AM   #86
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Do we actually know that they were involved in helo recovery? That's in a couple of articles but there's nothing to go along with it.

Standard procedure would be for the bridge of the USN vessel to radio the Russian vessel and tell them they were involved in aircraft recover, wouldn't it?

This is a legitimate, not facetious, question. For you military types.

Again, with the paucity of information and because it suits both country's agendas to leave it as yet another open case, I doubt that we're going to get anything further. I'd still be curious to see the GPS/Satellite plotting of their various positions, but I doubt we'll get the opportunity. (Maybe if we're all nice to CE, we'll get the Sputnik Scoop on this.)
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
No, the wake of the ships will keep them apart unless the helm is deliberately put over hard very close then the 'swing' of the stern could cause a graze as a ship pivots about a point somewhere near midships.
I may not have put it properly, the bow wave tends to thrust the bows of both ships apart, this tends to result in the sterns swinging in.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:01 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Again, with the paucity of information and because it suits both country's agendas to leave it as yet another open case, I doubt that we're going to get anything further. I'd still be curious to see the GPS/Satellite plotting of their various positions, but I doubt we'll get the opportunity. (Maybe if we're all nice to CE, we'll get the Sputnik Scoop on this.)

If you want serious news from Russia/ns, go to TASS. Here is the official Russian version:

Originally Posted by TASS
[...] Earlier, the Russian Pacific Fleet’s press service reported that the incident occurred at 6.35 a.m. Moscow Time in the southeastern part of the East China Sea, when a task force of the Russian Pacific Fleet and a US carrier strike group were heading in parallel directions. "The US cruiser Chancellorsville suddenly changed its course and crossed the Admiral Vinogradov destroyer’s course some 50 meters away from the ship. In order to prevent a collision, the Admiral Vinogradov’s crew was forced to conduct an emergency maneuver," the press service said.

The Pacific Fleet voiced a protest to the US vessel’s command, stressing that such steps are unacceptable. [...]

I only skimmed the thread but it seems to me that it wasn't mentioned that the US ship was part of a carrier group, so maybe you can further inquire on that road. The Russian claim seems to be that their ship was keeping an eye on the carrier group and the US ship separated from the group and tried to bully them away.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:38 AM   #89
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US Chancellorsville currently assigned to Carrier Strike Group Five which was in the Philippine Sea from May 29 to Jun 4 (last update June 5).
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:58 AM   #90
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From the aerial shot and video it looks like the Russian ship was keeping a track at about the same distance, but behind, and then cut over towards the US ship.

If the US ship was indeed doing a helo recovery then this was a very serious and dangerous thing to do by the Russians, and even if the US Ship wasn't, it looks as if they were coming from behind, and thus it counts as overtaking. You can't just turn into another ship and demand that they get out of the way because you are on their starboard.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:23 AM   #91
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The TASS "report" says the vessels were running parallel to each other. This contradicts the earliest version I read which said the Russian vessel was at some distance and tracking on a diagonal to the Chancellorsville's course.

I'd still like to see the pings of their various positions, but that changes the overtake scenario. Running parallel places more onus on the Russian captain.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:31 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do we actually know that they were involved in helo recovery? That's in a couple of articles but there's nothing to go along with it.

Standard procedure would be for the bridge of the USN vessel to radio the Russian vessel and tell them they were involved in aircraft recover, wouldn't it?

This is a legitimate, not facetious, question. For you military types.

Again, with the paucity of information and because it suits both country's agendas to leave it as yet another open case, I doubt that we're going to get anything further. I'd still be curious to see the GPS/Satellite plotting of their various positions, but I doubt we'll get the opportunity. (Maybe if we're all nice to CE, we'll get the Sputnik Scoop on this.)
There would be an announcemrnt made on guard channels that you were restricted.
You can address another ship directly on a hsiling or guard channel but they don't have to reply.
Also you would squawk it on your AIS transponder.

US ships like RN ships usually have AIS running, you can track their course with a App like Marinetraffic or similar.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:35 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The TASS "report" says the vessels were running parallel to each other.

No, it doesn't. It says the Russian ship and the aircraft carrier strike group were running parallel to each other. Before the USS Chancellorsville "suddenly changed its course".
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:13 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No.

But, I also know that as both of these ships are similar size, this particular rule isn't relevant to this situation.

I think the most relevant rule is the overtaking rule, which overrides all other rules and says an overtaking vessel MUST keep clear of the vessel being overtaken.

The Russian ship is definitely the overtaking vessel here. This is not a crossing situation (which the OP presumes) because the Russian ship is clearly coming from behind the American ship's beam. Rule 13d makes it clear that an overtaking vessel doesn't suddenly become a crossing vessel just because it gets in front of the overtaken vessel's beam in the course of overtaking it.
If the American vessel was flying Ball Diamond Ball day shapes, due to conducting flight operations, then the Russian ship would be at fault.

If the Russian ship accelerated to try to push in front of the American vessel, and misjudged the distance, and the American vessel had to put on full reverse. Then the Russians instigated a proper response from the American vessel.

I don't see how this is the American ship's fault at all.

American ship was at constant speed probably flying Ball Diamond Ball day shapes, due to flight ops. Russian vessel changed speed and course to intercept the American ship, forcing a full stop.

How is this the American ships fault at all?
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Old 11th June 2019, 11:33 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do we actually know that they were involved in helo recovery? That's in a couple of articles but there's nothing to go along with it.
The marquee photograph of this incident was taken from an American helicopter, which at least strongly supports the claim that the American ship was engaged in helicopter operations at the time.
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Old 11th June 2019, 01:45 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Do we actually know that they were involved in helo recovery?

That's in a couple of articles but there's nothing to go along with it.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russ...ry?id=63548788

The Chancellorsville was steering on a course to recover a helicopter, flying specific flags to indicate its intent, the official said. While that was occurring, the Russian ship steered a course into the Chancellorsville and closed within 50 and 100 feet.

The maneuver caused the Chancellorsville crew to wave off the helicopter and execute a "back full" so as to avoid a collision, as the Russian ship passed.


This is not just a mention, it a pretty solid description.

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Standard procedure would be for the bridge of the USN vessel to radio the Russian vessel and tell them they were involved in aircraft recover, wouldn't it?
No, the standard procedure is

1. The vessel carrying out flight operations will fly this day shape from the masthead at the commencement of operations.



This is the international signal that the ship flying it is restricted in its ability to maneuver. It will remain there for the duration of flight operations. You can see this from miles away - the Russian skipper will have been able to see this clearly from the bridge, and he WILL know what it means.

2. At the commencement of flight operations (when the "ball-diamond-ball day shape goes up), the US vessel would make a blind announcement (no reply required or expected) on Guard Channel 13 (156.650 MHz)*. Every military ship monitors the Guard Channels 24/7/365. The Russian skipper will have heard that announcement - his CIC watch officer will have heard it and relayed that information to him on the bridge.


*ETA: Guard Channel 13 is specifically set aside for inter ship navigation. It is the channel on which ships at sea warn other ships in the vicinity of what they are doing (a frequency of 156 MHz is line of sight - the horizon is generally the range limit, so you aren't telling the whole world what you are doing just those out to about a range of 10 to 20 km).
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:32 PM   #97
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To be clear, you can keep citing USN regs and procedures until the cows come home. I have learned, through a long history, not to believe anything they say.

That doesn't mean I believe what the Russian Navy says, either. Pictures of what it should have looked like and what might have been are not going to settle this. The governments have the tracks of the vessels. If they choose to share them, we'll be able to see.

A press release by a 7th Fleet or PacCommand or the Pentagon is not going to impress me. Lookit all the statements they made in the last three collisions. So think of the pixels. Don't waste them. (Nor am I necessarily impressed by TASS statements from their naval command or whatever it's called.)
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
To be clear, you can keep citing USN regs and procedures until the cows come home.
They aren't USN regs, they are International Maritime Regulations, they apply to ALL ships at sea regardless of whether they are military or civilian.

If the US Ship was conducting flight operations (and there is no reason to believe they were not, and plenty of evidence to show that they were, including an aerial photo taken at the time) then it doesn't to matter who says what about the two ships approaching each other.

- The US vessel WILL have been flying the ball-diamond-ball day shapes

- The US vessel WILL have made the required radio announcement on Guard channel 13.

This will have happened, not because the skipper made it up, or thought it would be a good idea; this will have happened BECAUSE THE RULES OF PROCEDURE DEMAND IT! Not doing so would be like a pilot taking off without Control Tower clearance, or entering controlled airspace without informing an Area Controller.

The Russian skipper MUST have known that the US vessel was flying those day shapes and he must have been told about the Guard channel transmission, BECAUSE THE RULES OF PROCEDURE DEMAND IT!

Under those circumstances, regardless of any crossing or overtaking situations, the Russian skipper is required to keep his vessel away from any ship flying those day shapes... period!!

If it should transpire that the US vessel was conducting flight operations without following those rules of procedure (and this is extremely unlikely), then the US skipper will be in a vat of steaming excrement up to his neck.... and this would have been be the case regardless of whether any near miss took place.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:10 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
They aren't USN regs, they are International Maritime Regulations, they apply to ALL ships at sea regardless of whether they are military or civilian.

If the US Ship was conducting flight operations (and there is no reason to believe they were not, and plenty of evidence to show that they were, including an aerial photo taken at the time) then it doesn't to matter who says what about the two ships approaching each other.

- The US vessel WILL have been flying the ball-diamond-ball day shapes

- The US vessel WILL have made the required radio announcement on Guard channel 13.

This will have happened, not because the skipper made it up, or thought it would be a good idea; this will have happened BECAUSE THE RULES OF PROCEDURE DEMAND IT! Not doing so would be like a pilot taking off without Control Tower clearance, or entering controlled airspace without informing an Area Controller.

The Russian skipper MUST have known that the US vessel was flying those day shapes and he must have been told about the Guard channel transmission, BECAUSE THE RULES OF PROCEDURE DEMAND IT!

Under those circumstances, regardless of any crossing or overtaking situations, the Russian skipper is required to keep his vessel away from any ship flying those day shapes... period!!

If it should transpire that the US vessel was conducting flight operations without following those rules of procedure (and this is extremely unlikely), then the US skipper will be in a vat of steaming excrement up to his neck.... and this would have been be the case regardless of whether any near miss took place.
USN or Maritime Code or Starfleet Regs...... it matters not. You're accepting that their version is accurate.

I. DO. NOT.

Until it is verified that some other ship in the area heard the announcement or until someone shows me they were flying the proper pennants, I'm going to remain skeptical. I do not trust the US military to report anything accurately.

At the risk of theprestige showing up with his No Analogies Dictum, what you're saying is that Kanthorn Suvabarm isn't dead. The regulations say you are not to run red lights or drive at night with your lights off, so the pickup truck (ute) that hit her couldn't have been doing just that.

Why would you give any credence to anything the USN claims in the Pacific? Their record of mismanagement, poor training and fabrication of scenarios is not exactly sterling. Their initial claims about the USS Fitzgerald is that it was on a sooper sekret mission to the South China Sea. Yeah,heading across Tokyo Bay in the opposite direction. Oops, we didn't mean that, we meant to say it was patrolling the harbor area. Oops, the Japanese don't agree that the USN patrols their territorial waters. Oh, well, human error by the officers on duty. And it continued (and continues to this day).
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:48 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Until it is verified that some other ship in the area heard the announcement or until someone shows me they were flying the proper pennants, I'm going to remain skeptical. I do not trust the US military to report anything accurately.
Even if they were not displaying the proper day shapes, the helicopter flying around the ship was not invisible. There's no way the Russian ship would not have seen it.
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Old 11th June 2019, 09:23 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Even if they were not displaying the proper day shapes, the helicopter flying around the ship was not invisible. There's no way the Russian ship would not have seen it.
Nor any way to know that it belonged to that ship and not one of the others. This is a carrier group. (Carrier Group Five, to be specific. The Cowboys of the Pacific.)
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:12 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nor any way to know that it belonged to that ship and not one of the others. This is a carrier group. (Carrier Group Five, to be specific. The Cowboys of the Pacific.)
The fact that the US ship had an empty helideck and the helicopter was hovering immediately around it indicates helicopter operations are in progress. It doesn't matter whether the approaching helicopter "belongs" to that ship or not; all that matters is that it's clearly about to land there.
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:19 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The fact that the US ship had an empty helideck and the helicopter was hovering immediately around it indicates helicopter operations are in progress. It doesn't matter whether the approaching helicopter "belongs" to that ship or not; all that matters is that it's clearly about to land there.
So now it was hovering? Amazing the things you're able to figure out from a couple of still photos.

You're leaping to conclusions. How far was the Chancellorsville from the Reagan? Was the helo working its way back and forth or between the other vessels? None of this is in evidence. You're extrapolating, and your extrapolation depends on believing the narrative of a known bunch of liars!
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:45 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
So now it was hovering? Amazing the things you're able to figure out from a couple of still photos.

You're leaping to conclusions. How far was the Chancellorsville from the Reagan? Was the helo working its way back and forth or between the other vessels? None of this is in evidence. You're extrapolating, and your extrapolation depends on believing the narrative of a known bunch of liars!
But all of the available evidence so far supports their version of events. The video shows the Russian ship clearly trailing the American ship as it approaches. Photographs were taken from a helicopter. It may not be an ideal amount of evidence, but it is more evidence than currently exists to support the Russian government's claims of what happened, which is zero. And the Russian government certainly isn't any less of a "known bunch of liars" than the US.
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Old 11th June 2019, 11:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
USN or Maritime Code or Starfleet Regs...... it matters not. You're accepting that their version is accurate.

I. DO. NOT.

Until it is verified that some other ship in the area heard the announcement or until someone shows me they were flying the proper pennants, I'm going to remain skeptical. I do not trust the US military to report anything accurately.
In this particular case it doesn't matter. It's clear the Russian ship was in the wrong, regardless of any flight operations taking place. Flight operations taking place just proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the maneuver was malicious and dangerous provocation from the Russian side and not a mere symptom of too much Vodka on the bridge.

It also doesn't prove excess Vodka consumption while on station didn't contribute to the incident. It merely proves beyond a shadow of doubt there was malicious intent.

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Old 11th June 2019, 11:49 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In this particular case it doesn't matter. It's clear the Russian ship was in the wrong, regardless of any flight operations taking place. Flight operations taking place just proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the maneuver was malicious and dangerous provocation from the Russian side and not a mere symptom of too much Vodka on the bridge.

It also doesn't prove excess Vodka consumption while on station didn't contribute to the incident. It merely proves beyond a shadow of doubt there was malicious intent.

McHrozni
I disagree. If the USN narrative is accurate, then there's a malicious incident. If the Russian vessel was genuinely crossing and the Chancellorsville was not in aircraft recovery operation, then it's not a malicious act - or not on the part of the Russian ship, at any rate.

I am very hesitant to make a call on crossing vs overtaking without seeing the relative positions prior to the commencement of the video. The helo overhead shots are from that same time and after.

The question of crossing comes into play because of the history of the 5th Carrier Group. I probably should've pointed it out earlier but that's the same group that included BOTH the Fitzgerald and the John McCain. Have they improved their training, which was found seriously lacking by the USN, since then? Recent communications from the Navy say it's ongoing but that's not saying much.

The USN recently threw out the charges against the two officers of the Fitzgerald. Much ballyhoo when they were found negligent and much noise about how they were going to have criminal charges filled against them, but very quiet when it came to dropping the charges. (It can be found but you have to look for it.)

So, no, I don't trust the Russian navy but I certainly don't trust anyone speaking for PacFleet or the 5th CG in particular. With the top-down mentality of the services and Cowboy Donnie as the Commander-in-Chief, why would anyone suspect they'd turned into boyscouts overnight?
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:46 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I disagree. If the USN narrative is accurate, then there's a malicious incident. If the Russian vessel was genuinely crossing and the Chancellorsville was not in aircraft recovery operation, then it's not a malicious act - or not on the part of the Russian ship, at any rate.
If the US ship wasn't conducting flight operations or didn't hoist the markers and made the radio warning, then the Russian ship still violated maritime law. There is confusion whether the Russian ship was crossing or overtaking the American ship, in this case the Russian ship should be acting as if it were overtaking and the American ship has the right of way. Period.

All flight operations do is to make the actions of the Russian ship a clear-cut malicious act of provocation. If there indeed were none, an image of the US vessel taken from the Russian ship for starters, it's an act of criminal incompetence by the Russian ship. If there were some it's an act of war.

It really is that simple.

Quote:
The question of crossing comes into play because of the history of the 5th Carrier Group. I probably should've pointed it out earlier but that's the same group that included BOTH the Fitzgerald and the John McCain. Have they improved their training, which was found seriously lacking by the USN, since then? Recent communications from the Navy say it's ongoing but that's not saying much.
Probably, but in this situation it doesn't matter in the slightest. Russian ship was at fault regardless of what happened, it's just a question whether it was incompetence or malice.

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Old 12th June 2019, 01:00 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In this particular case it doesn't matter. It's clear the Russian ship was in the wrong, regardless of any flight operations taking place. Flight operations taking place just proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, the maneuver was malicious and dangerous provocation from the Russian side and not a mere symptom of too much Vodka on the bridge.

It also doesn't prove excess Vodka consumption while on station didn't contribute to the incident. It merely proves beyond a shadow of doubt there was malicious intent.

McHrozni
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
I disagree. If the USN narrative is accurate, then there's a malicious incident. If the Russian vessel was genuinely crossing and the Chancellorsville was not in aircraft recovery operation, then it's not a malicious act - or not on the part of the Russian ship, at any rate.

I am very hesitant to make a call on crossing vs overtaking without seeing the relative positions prior to the commencement of the video. The helo overhead shots are from that same time and after.

The question of crossing comes into play because of the history of the 5th Carrier Group. I probably should've pointed it out earlier but that's the same group that included BOTH the Fitzgerald and the John McCain. Have they improved their training, which was found seriously lacking by the USN, since then? Recent communications from the Navy say it's ongoing but that's not saying much.

The USN recently threw out the charges against the two officers of the Fitzgerald. Much ballyhoo when they were found negligent and much noise about how they were going to have criminal charges filled against them, but very quiet when it came to dropping the charges. (It can be found but you have to look for it.)

So, no, I don't trust the Russian navy but I certainly don't trust anyone speaking for PacFleet or the 5th CG in particular. With the top-down mentality of the services and Cowboy Donnie as the Commander-in-Chief, why would anyone suspect they'd turned into boyscouts overnight?

Well here is something that I would like some of our resident ex-navy types to comment on....



I look at this image and I see three things

Firstly, The US vessel (on the right as we look at the image) does not have a very long wake extending from its stern.

Secondly, the Russian vessel has a much longer, much more disturbed wake.

Now, from my limited time serving on a navy ship, the short wake usually means that the ship is travelling quite slowly. The slower the ship is going, the less the propellers disturb the water (the wash), and the longer it takes for the ship to put distance between itself and the wash. The faster it travels, the more the propellers churn up the water and the faster it gets away from the wash. Now I know this can be affected the size of the ship but these are both destroyers; their sizes are in the same ball park.

These two wakes seem to indicate, at least to me, that the Russian destroyer is travelling faster than the US destroyer. IIRC, a typical forward speed for Helo recovery would be in the order of 5-10 knots. Any faster and the Helo has to maintain too much forward speed, which would require it to tilt forwards, making landing hazardous.

The third thing I noticed was this (marked with the red lines)



A distinct bend in the Russian's wake... that looks like a sudden course change to me.

Overall, it seems clear to me that these two ships were not closing on each other at the same speed... the Russian ship was travelling faster - much faster, and made a course change towards the US navy ship. If I am reading this correctly, then the Russian ship must have started from long way behind the US ship to have caught up with her where it did - and that would make talk of a crossing maneuver total hogwash.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:28 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well here is something that I would like some of our resident ex-navy types to comment on....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5zjv98rp7k...ssia.jpg?raw=1

I look at this image and I see three things

Firstly, The US vessel (on the right as we look at the image) does not have a very long wake extending from its stern.

Secondly, the Russian vessel has a much longer, much more disturbed wake.

Now, from my limited time serving on a navy ship, the short wake usually means that the ship is travelling quite slowly. The slower the ship is going, the less the propellers disturb the water (the wash), and the longer it takes for the ship to put distance between itself and the wash. The faster it travels, the more the propellers churn up the water and the faster it gets away from the wash. Now I know this can be affected the size of the ship but these are both destroyers; their sizes are in the same ball park.

These two wakes seem to indicate, at least to me, that the Russian destroyer is travelling faster than the US destroyer. IIRC, a typical forward speed for Helo recovery would be in the order of 5-10 knots. Any faster and the Helo has to maintain too much forward speed, which would require it to tilt forwards, making landing hazardous.

The third thing I noticed was this (marked with the red lines)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7ione3f3k...sia2.jpg?raw=1

A distinct bend in the Russian's wake... that looks like a sudden course change to me.

Overall, it seems clear to me that these two ships were not closing on each other at the same speed... the Russian ship was travelling faster - much faster, and made a course change towards the US navy ship. If I am reading this correctly, then the Russian ship must have started from long way behind the US ship to have caught up with her where it did - and that would make talk of a crossing maneuver total hogwash.
Crossing does not get initiated in such a short distance. That's why I say the positions and speeds relative to each other prior to the video and this photo are far more pertinent.

As to the wash? From the narrative, the Americans went in full reverse in order to avoid a collision. That would've occurred before this shot was taken. I don't think wash tells us anything.
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Old 12th June 2019, 01:30 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The slower the ship is going, the less the propellers disturb the water (the wash), and the longer it takes for the ship to put distance between itself and the wash. The faster it travels, the more the propellers churn up the water and the faster it gets away from the wash. Now I know this can be affected the size of the ship but these are both destroyers; their sizes are in the same ball park.
Indeed the Russian destroyer is slightly smaller at 7,900 tons at full load versus 9,800 tons at full load of the American ship. That's not a significant enough difference to do much to the wake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...ral_Vinogradov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Chancellorsville

Quote:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7ione3f3k...sia2.jpg?raw=1

A distinct bend in the Russian's wake... that looks like a sudden course change to me.

Overall, it seems clear to me that these two ships were not closing on each other at the same speed... the Russian ship was travelling faster - much faster, and made a course change towards the US navy ship. If I am reading this correctly, then the Russian ship must have started from long way behind the US ship to have caught up with her where it did - and that would make talk of a crossing maneuver total hogwash.
This looks like the Russian ship aiming at the American with the intent to ram the ship, then turning away at the last second.

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Old 12th June 2019, 01:34 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
As to the wash? From the narrative, the Americans went in full reverse in order to avoid a collision. That would've occurred before this shot was taken. I don't think wash tells us anything.
If the claim US ship went into full reverse it's even more damning for the Russians than the video already is. It means that US ship did take appropriate evasive action, upon which the Rusisan vessel changed course towards the US ship. This would make it a clear ramming maneuver and equivalent to firing a missile towards the US ship.

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Old 12th June 2019, 02:40 AM   #112
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Why is everyone ignoring that it's what the Russians do and have done fore decades?
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:03 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is everyone ignoring that it's what the Russians do and have done fore decades?
Because certain poster(s) are for some reason trying to invent (with 90% probability false) narrative where Russians are somehow not at fault.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:17 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Because certain poster(s) are for some reason trying to invent (with 90% probability false) narrative where Russians are somehow not at fault.
Certain posters?
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is everyone ignoring that it's what the Russians do and have done fore decades?
Perhaps for the same reason "everyone" is ignoring the dodgy history of the Fifth Carrier Group.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:00 AM   #116
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What are Russians doing there anyway? Chasing more whales to enslave for espionage?
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:03 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What are Russians doing there anyway? Chasing more whales to enslave for espionage?
I'm guessing they were on their way back from meeting with Donnie Johnny's good friend in the Philippines. Wasn't part of Russia's Pacific fleet just in Subic? It seems that Duterte is playing Russia against China against the US.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:27 AM   #118
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It's pretty clear that the Russian ship took an aggressive acceleration, and the Ticonderoga Cruiser had to crash back.

It really doesn't matter because the US ship had day shapes flying ball diamond ball, for flight recovery.

This photo is from before the photo above. You can clearly see if you compare this photo, and the above photo that the Russian ship is accelerating at a high rate with relation to the US ship.



Yes, the US Destroyer was flying correct Day Flags. As SmartCooky & I pointed out, it would be Ball-Diamond-Ball for AirCraft recovery and decreased maneuverability.

Quote:
The Chancellorsville was steering on a course to recover a helicopter, flying specific flags to indicate its intent, the official said. While that was occurring, the Russian ship steered a course into the Chancellorsville and closed within 50 and 100 feet.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russ...ry?id=63548788

The wakes are clear indicators of what is happening here.
The Russian ship is accelerating, and the US ship is decelerating. Relative ship positions in two photos make this clear.
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Old 12th June 2019, 05:35 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
It's pretty clear that the Russian ship took an aggressive acceleration, and the Ticonderoga Cruiser had to crash back.

It really doesn't matter because the US ship had day shapes flying ball diamond ball, for flight recovery.

This photo is from before the photo above. You can clearly see if you compare this photo, and the above photo that the Russian ship is accelerating at a high rate with relation to the US ship.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/6...922/TRh0v7.jpg

Yes, the US Destroyer was flying correct Day Flags. As SmartCooky & I pointed out, it would be Ball-Diamond-Ball for AirCraft recovery and decreased maneuverability.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/russ...ry?id=63548788

The wakes are clear indicators of what is happening here.
The Russian ship is accelerating, and the US ship is decelerating. Relative ship positions in two photos make this clear.
That's the first mention I've seen of a statement* that they were showing the proper flags.

That more or less settles it. The Russian vessel was at fault. You don't tack to a crossing move when a ship is recovering an aircraft. Period.


*ETA: I'd seen the ABC article before and they don't say it's been updated but I swear there was no such statement in it, originally. But I could be mistaken.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:27 AM   #120
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I just picture the skipper of the Chancellorsville drinking a cup of coffee, an older bald guy, and Maverick decides to do a fly by, the Russian ship decides to bluff run at his starboard bow, and he spills his coffee, saying 'God dammit Maverick'.
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