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Old 10th June 2019, 12:56 PM   #41
luchog
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A restaurant owner has some bad patrons, who leave, and then the restaurant owner later sees some 13 year old black kids and assaults one of them, accusing him of breaking a bottle in a restaurant where he never was in.

Well this is why we have police and investigations. Hopefully, the police have some better information than the small snippets of conversation provided in the articles.

Have an altercation with a black person, go out and grab some black person who is vaguely sort of similar to the black person who was involved in the incident, accuse that black person of being the the one involved in the incident, treat said black person as if they were conclusively proven to be the person involved in the incident despite the lack of supporting evidence.

Not sure how getting the police involved is going to help, since that is pretty much their SOP for crimes and disturbances involving black people.
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Old 10th June 2019, 01:22 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post



Why couldn't the police have acted here?
I was responding to the statement that the action of throwing the bottle wasn't arrestable. If that were correct, then what could anyone do?

In reality, the act of throwing a bottle may very well be a crime, i.e. an arrestable act, depending on how and where it was thrown. That means that a better response from the restaurant owner would have been to call police.

ETA:. Ironically, though, had the restaurant owner called police, the actual consequences to the boy would likely have been worse than what happened during the "kidnapping".

Last edited by Meadmaker; 10th June 2019 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 10th June 2019, 02:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was responding to the statement that the action of throwing the bottle wasn't arrestable. If that were correct, then what could anyone do?
...which I answered, explaining the number of things that could still be done including by the police.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
...which I answered, explaining the number of things that could still be done including by the police.
Yes, but, unfortunately, you were wrong, because you said there were lots of things that police could do in cases where no arrest was possible. (I can't remember the exact words, so if there is a significant difference between what you said and how I'm presenting it, let me know.) Policemen are there to enforce the law. They can issue tickets, or they can make arrests. Everything else that they do is related to those powers.

Of course, they can investigate complaints, but the purpose of the investigation is to determine if there ought to be an arrest or a ticket. If you call the police to investigate something, and the "something" is not a crime, they will tell you to stop wasting their time. In other words, if it were truly impossible to arrest someone for throwing a bottle, and you report that someone has thrown a bottle, you will be the one in trouble.

And it must be that way, otherwise police could butt in on your life just because they felt like it. That would be bad.


ETA: And, of course, they do not have to make an arrest, even if one is possible. In your post, you mentioned that they can compel someone to leave private property, which is true. However, they can only do that because trespassing is a crime. What they are really doing is saying, "Get out of here or I will arrest you." If you are doing something arrestable, they don't have to arrest you, but if what you are doing is not arrestable, they can do nothing.

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Old 10th June 2019, 03:45 PM   #45
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The kid ordered a Pepsi and didn't like it; the owner was just suggesting a Mug Cream Soda instead.
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yes, but, unfortunately, you were wrong, because you said there were lots of things that police could do in cases where no arrest was possible. (I can't remember the exact words, so if there is a significant difference between what you said and how I'm presenting it, let me know.) Policemen are there to enforce the law. They can issue tickets, or they can make arrests. Everything else that they do is related to those powers.

Of course, they can investigate complaints, but the purpose of the investigation is to determine if there ought to be an arrest or a ticket.
No. Police can for instance come and move a person along if a private business owner has told them to leave and they have refused. This does not require an arrest or a ticket.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No. Police can for instance come and move a person along if a private business owner has told them to leave and they have refused. This does not require an arrest or a ticket.
As I said, "If you are doing something arrestable, they don't have to arrest you, but if what you are doing is not arrestable, they can do nothing. "


Staying on private property after being asked to leave is arrestable. The police are not required to arrest the perpetrator, but they have the option to do so. Telling them to leave is an implied threat that they will face arrest if they do not leave.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:10 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Staying on private property after being asked to leave is arrestable. The police are not required to arrest the perpetrator, but they have the option to do so. Telling them to leave is an implied threat that they will face arrest if they do not leave.
Absolutely; but in that instance the kid would be arrested for trespassing, not for throwing a bottle. So just because the kid couldn't be arrested for throwing the bottle, doesn't mean police could not have been called to deal with this situation.
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Old 10th June 2019, 05:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Absolutely; but in that instance the kid would be arrested for trespassing, not for throwing a bottle. So just because the kid couldn't be arrested for throwing the bottle, doesn't mean police could not have been called to deal with this situation.
We don't have a whole lot of information about what happened, but the mental picture I had was of someone throwing the bottle and then running out of the restaurant.

If you throw a bottle at someone, or if you are deliberately targeting some thing, e.g. throwing a bottle at a window, that's arrestable, either as assault or vandalism.


I agree that calling the police would have been better than what he did. Threatening to kill someone, whether explicitly or by pointing a gun that appears to be real at them, is rarely a good idea. I do have some sympathy for the restaurant owner, though, if there was a violently thrown bottle involved, and the owner actually got the right kid. That doesn't mean I approve of what he did, but I also don't think it's an incredibly bad, unforgivable, sin, either. I don't think a charge of kidnapping is warranted.

Kidnapping is one of those crimes that has been used a lot recently to mean something other than the dictionary definition of the word.
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Old 11th June 2019, 01:25 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
We don't have a whole lot of information about what happened, but the mental picture I had was of someone throwing the bottle and then running out of the restaurant.

If you throw a bottle at someone, or if you are deliberately targeting some thing, e.g. throwing a bottle at a window, that's arrestable, either as assault or vandalism.
To clarify, my original "this is not an arrestable offense" was really in response to somebody who depicted the man's actions - possibly jokingly - as a "citizen's arrest".

Still; the owner didn't say, or at least it hasn't been reported that he said, the kid threw a bottle at a specific person or thing, he just said he threw a bottle. So the scenario in my mind is a kid simply being disrespectful and throwing an object to be a brat, not deliberately trying to bean somebody in the head or break a window or something. Frankly given what we know about this man from his "gun" stunt he seems prone to overreaction and I'm tempted to think he's even grossly exaggerating the kid's actions, and it may have been something along the lines of the kid trying to throw the bottle into a garbage can and missing, and simply not attempting to pick the bottle up and throw it away properly before leaving.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree that calling the police would have been better than what he did. Threatening to kill someone, whether explicitly or by pointing a gun that appears to be real at them, is rarely a good idea. I do have some sympathy for the restaurant owner, though, if there was a violently thrown bottle involved, and the owner actually got the right kid. That doesn't mean I approve of what he did, but I also don't think it's an incredibly bad, unforgivable, sin, either. I don't think a charge of kidnapping is warranted.

Kidnapping is one of those crimes that has been used a lot recently to mean something other than the dictionary definition of the word.
I have to strongly disagree with this. I do think it's completely unforgivable to put a gun to a kid's head and forcefully, bodily take them in this condition against their will to some other place. I don't see how this action could not be called kidnapping; it fits the definition precisely.
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Old 11th June 2019, 03:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think a charge of kidnapping is warranted.

Kidnapping is one of those crimes that has been used a lot recently to mean something other than the dictionary definition of the word.
Get a better dictionary.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Get a better dictionary.
So how far do you have to go for it to be kidnapping? That's a serious question. One time in high school I was extremely drunk and some people transported me to the basement of the house where the party was against my will and didn't let me out. Was I kidnapped?

Or, one time I was eating in a fast food restaurant when two people with guns robbed the place and told us all to not move. Were we kidnapped?

(For what it's worth, I think it is quite possible that the armed robbers would today be charged with kidnapping. I didn't like those fellows, and while it was going on I remember thinking that if someone happened to have a gun and were to shoot them dead, that would be fine with me, but that doesn't mean they were kidnappers.)


I remember in my youth seeing a teacher grab a youth and physically force him to the school office. Kidnapping? Or does the fact that he was an employee of the state negate the crime?

What about grabbing someone, wrestling them to the ground, and holding them there, and they end up three feet from where they started? I don't think anyone would call that kidnapping, but what is the difference except for the distance travelled?


In this case, the restaurant owner kept the kid in full view and transported him across part of a parking lot. For what purpose, I don't know. I suppose that will either be part of plea bargain negotiations or will come up at trial.

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Old 11th June 2019, 04:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Still; the owner didn't say, or at least it hasn't been reported that he said, the kid threw a bottle at a specific person or thing, he just said he threw a bottle. So the scenario in my mind is a kid simply being disrespectful and throwing an object to be a brat, not deliberately trying to bean somebody in the head or break a window or something.

That fits the available evidence. So does a more violent confrontation. I'm sure the police know more, but it isn't likely to be made public unless there's a trial.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:24 PM   #54
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Perhaps the focus should be on the what appeared to be a real gun pointed at the child's head. That rather strikes me as the crux of the issue. I rather imagine there are family members of dead black men, unarmed but still shot by police wondering what it takes for an Asian to take two in the brain housing group.

In Florida, a black social worker rates one in the arm just for laying on the ground with his autistic charge. Asian restaurant owners can apparently hold what they represent to be a real firearm to the head of a black child and not end up with the General Tsao's Chicken garnished with the owner's brains. What gives?

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Old 11th June 2019, 05:42 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So how far do you have to go for it to be kidnapping? That's a serious question. One time in high school I was extremely drunk and some people transported me to the basement of the house where the party was against my will and didn't let me out. Was I kidnapped?

Or, one time I was eating in a fast food restaurant when two people with guns robbed the place and told us all to not move. Were we kidnapped?

(For what it's worth, I think it is quite possible that the armed robbers would today be charged with kidnapping. I didn't like those fellows, and while it was going on I remember thinking that if someone happened to have a gun and were to shoot them dead, that would be fine with me, but that doesn't mean they were kidnappers.)


I remember in my youth seeing a teacher grab a youth and physically force him to the school office. Kidnapping? Or does the fact that he was an employee of the state negate the crime?

What about grabbing someone, wrestling them to the ground, and holding them there, and they end up three feet from where they started? I don't think anyone would call that kidnapping, but what is the difference except for the distance travelled?


In this case, the restaurant owner kept the kid in full view and transported him across part of a parking lot. For what purpose, I don't know. I suppose that will either be part of plea bargain negotiations or will come up at trial.
He held a (fake) gun to the kid's head, threatening to kill him, and took dragged him to his own property. You can Loki's Wager this until the end of time if you really feel like it. For the rest of us, it's very clear what has happened.
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Old 11th June 2019, 05:44 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Perhaps the focus should be on the what appeared to be a real gun pointed at the child's head. That rather strikes me as the crux of the issue. I rather imagine there are family members of dead black men, unarmed but still shot by police wondering what it takes for an Asian to take two in the brain housing group.

In Florida, a black social worker rates one in the arm just for laying on the ground with his autistic charge. Asian restaurant owners can apparently hold what they represent to be a real firearm to the head of a black child and not end up with the General Tsao's Chicken garnished with the owner's brains. What gives?
None of the stories I've seen discussed at all how long the incident lasted, or how it ended. I don't know if the kid was still being held when the police showed up, or if he was released as soon as the restaurant owner saw the cops, or if there was any sort of standoff. The stories I have read don't say.
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Old 11th June 2019, 06:34 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by WLKY
kidnapping a minor and three counts of wonton endangerment.
Some food was in danger.

https://www.wlky.com/article/abandon...ritan/27930157
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Old 11th June 2019, 07:04 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In Florida, a black social worker rates one in the arm just for laying on the ground with his autistic charge. Asian restaurant owners can apparently hold what they represent to be a real firearm to the head of a black child and not end up with the General Tsao's Chicken garnished with the owner's brains. What gives?
If he still had a gun to the kid's head when the police showed up, I reckon they would not chance wounding the hostage by shooting him, is my guess.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:19 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
If he still had a gun to the kid's head when the police showed up, I reckon they would not chance wounding the hostage by shooting him, is my guess.
Here's a site with the longest video clip I have seen of the incident, and some additional commentary by witnesses.

https://www.bet.com/news/national/20...nap-13-ye.html
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:46 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Here's a site with the longest video clip I have seen of the incident, and some additional commentary by witnesses.

https://www.bet.com/news/national/20...nap-13-ye.html
That would explain why the police didn't shoot him; unless he pulled the gun out again after that video clip ended, the gun was in his pocket when they arrived.
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Old 11th June 2019, 09:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That would explain why the police didn't shoot him; unless he pulled the gun out again after that video clip ended, the gun was in his pocket when they arrived.
In fact, the gun was only out for a couple of seconds during the whole incident, and was never held to the kid's head.

We don't know where the kid was when the police arrived. Still being held by Mr. Chen? It's not in any of the stories.

In one of the other stories I saw, a woman said she had heard about the rock throwing, but that Mr. Chen should have called the police. It's unclear whether the "rock throwing" was that day, or immediately before Mr. Chen grabbed the boy. Indeed, calling the police would have been a much better choice. From a different news story, I learned that police had been called to that block 33 times already in 2019. I also learned that Mr. Chen's gun was well known. He pulled it out before, according to a woman who worked at an adjacent laundromat.


I also read that the kid "threw a bottle", but that Mr. Chen "tried to get him to stop". One of the stories referred to a "broken bottle". Well, one bottle? You can't "try to get him to stop" if the incident only lasts long enough to throw one bottle. Where does the "try to get him to stop" come from? Stop what?

I'm getting the feeling that a group of kids, which may or may not have included the 13 year old in the incident, were throwing rocks and/or bottles toward Mr. Chen's store, but that's an inference from the various statements, not a clear statement from any one witness.

This is yet another case where the headlines just don't match reality, although in this case it does still appear that Chen crossed the line into illegality, but he didn't grab a boy off the street and hold a (fake) gun to his head. That's just not what happened.

ETA: I don't want to be seen as defending Mr. Chen here. I just am always interested in the way news gets reported and the difference between the impression given in the media versus what actually happened. The interesting thing to me is that there are little snippets of information, but they don't paint a clear picture, and they don't match the headlines. I'm always interested when that occurs.

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Old 11th June 2019, 09:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In fact, the gun was only out for a couple of seconds during the whole incident, and was never held to the kid's head.
I don't think you can say that. The gun is out when the video starts and there's no telling how long it was in his hand before that.

However, I don't think it makes much of a difference. He grabbed the kid and pulled him to his store against the kid's will; and the gun came out and was clearly waved around as a threat, regardless of the timing, which is all that's necessary for my reaction to be the same at least. There is nothing acceptable about the restauranteur's behavior.
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Old 11th June 2019, 09:33 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think you can say that. The gun is out when the video starts and there's no telling how long it was in his hand before that.

However, I don't think it makes much of a difference. He grabbed the kid and pulled him to his store against the kid's will; and the gun came out and was clearly waved around as a threat, regardless of the timing, which is all that's necessary for my reaction to be the same at least. There is nothing acceptable about the restauranteur's behavior.
True, but there's a lot of room between "not acceptable" and "kidnapping".

From Kentucky law:

Quote:
The elements of kidnapping include the unlawful restraint of another with the intent to accomplish or advance the commission of a felony or inflict bodily injury.[i]

According to KRS § 532.060, for a Class A felony, sentence of imprisonment is not less than 20 years and not more than 50 years, or life imprisonment. For a Class B felony, sentence is not less than 10 years and not more than 20 years.
The unlawful restraint is clear, but I don't see any attempt to commit a felony or inflict bodily injury. Should Chen go to jail for a minimum of 10 years? Elsewhere on the page it notes that it's a class B felony if the victim is released unharmed.

That doesn't look like a 10-20 year felony to me. It looks like a guy who went overboard trying to protect his property. If it was a first offense, I would say probation. Maybe a 30 day sentence plus probation, just to be sure that he understands that he can't go threatening people, and should call the police.
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Old 11th June 2019, 10:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
True, but there's a lot of room between "not acceptable" and "kidnapping".

From Kentucky law:

The unlawful restraint is clear, but I don't see any attempt to commit a felony or inflict bodily injury. Should Chen go to jail for a minimum of 10 years? Elsewhere on the page it notes that it's a class B felony if the victim is released unharmed.

That doesn't look like a 10-20 year felony to me. It looks like a guy who went overboard trying to protect his property. If it was a first offense, I would say probation. Maybe a 30 day sentence plus probation, just to be sure that he understands that he can't go threatening people, and should call the police.
Your source contains much more information than you have quoted, and the elements you've listed aren't exclusive. Evidently the more specific language is

Quote:
To inflict bodily injury or to terrorize the victim or another; or
...which I see pulling a gun and brandishing it as he did, including pointing it at the child, as certainly showing an intent to terrorize the victim. In the BET article you posted, the manager of a nearby store says that this man has a habit of pulling that gun on customers he has disputes with.

And I don't agree that the man was trying to protect his property. The article says that the man, in court, said the boy had thrown a bottle and he was "trying to get him to stop". But that's fairly ridiculous and clearly not true; assuming the boy even had thrown anything at all, the fact that he had left the restaurant and had gone into a grocery store on the other end of the shopping center (the surveillance video clip shows the boy being force-walked a substantial distance) means that he very clearly must have stopped prior to Mr. Chen going out and grabbing him, and no further action by the restaurant owner was necessary if that was his only aim. That tells me it wasn't. He did not go out and retrieve the kid and drag him back to his store to "make him stop".
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:25 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
True, but there's a lot of room between "not acceptable" and "kidnapping".
It gets into what laws you look at and what you accept as kidnapping. In general most crimes is not considered to be solely dependent on other crimes committed later but the actions themselves, so all illegal detentions get classed as kidnapping.

Of course this also means that for example it would be wrong to classify mere forcible sex between spouses in the 1950's as rape as that was totally legal then. If this forcible sex is rape despite it not being against rape laws why are we splitting the hairs so fine on illegal detention?
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:41 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Your source contains much more information than you have quoted, and the elements you've listed aren't exclusive. Evidently the more specific language is



...which I see pulling a gun and brandishing it as he did, including pointing it at the child, as certainly showing an intent to terrorize the victim. In the BET article you posted, the manager of a nearby store says that this man has a habit of pulling that gun on customers he has disputes with.

And I don't agree that the man was trying to protect his property. The article says that the man, in court, said the boy had thrown a bottle and he was "trying to get him to stop". But that's fairly ridiculous and clearly not true; assuming the boy even had thrown anything at all, the fact that he had left the restaurant and had gone into a grocery store on the other end of the shopping center (the surveillance video clip shows the boy being force-walked a substantial distance) means that he very clearly must have stopped prior to Mr. Chen going out and grabbing him, and no further action by the restaurant owner was necessary if that was his only aim. That tells me it wasn't. He did not go out and retrieve the kid and drag him back to his store to "make him stop".
I absolutely agree that the story doesn't make any sense as told.

I think the problem is that we have tiny bits of half-told stories. I think the perspective on the story depends a lot on how you fill in the missing parts in your head.

The story, as presented in the headlines, is that crazy Chinese guy grabs young black kid off the street at gunpoint, and drags him back to his restaurant. Fortunately, an alert passerby foils the plot.

The story in my head is that kid vandalizes restaurant and restaurant owner seizes kid using a fake gun, dragging him back to the store to force him to clean up damage and maybe call parents.

Those are two very different stories.

The real story probably doesn't exactly match either of them. One possibility is that kid engages in horseplay, accidentally breaks bottle, and old Chinese guy goes berserk. That fits all the evidence available to us. If that's the case, then the dude is dangerous, but even then I wouldn't lock him up for 10 years.


As for the definition of kidnapping, if "terrorize" is considered a synonym of "scare", then literally any time someone pulls a gun or other weapon and says "Don't move", they have committed kidnapping. I never thought of myself as having been kidnapped before, but apparently I was.
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It gets into what laws you look at and what you accept as kidnapping. In general most crimes is not considered to be solely dependent on other crimes committed later but the actions themselves, so all illegal detentions get classed as kidnapping.
Right. And I don't think that's what the word "kidnapping" means, but it does sometimes get charged that way. Suddenly a very minor incident becomes a felony with a minimum ten year sentence.

Quote:
Of course this also means that for example it would be wrong to classify mere forcible sex between spouses in the 1950's as rape as that was totally legal then. If this forcible sex is rape despite it not being against rape laws why are we splitting the hairs so fine on illegal detention?
You just can't help yourself, can you?
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Old 12th June 2019, 04:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Right. And I don't think that's what the word "kidnapping" means, but it does sometimes get charged that way. Suddenly a very minor incident becomes a felony with a minimum ten year sentence.
So what crime then is illegal detention, or is it legal in Kentucky to illegally detain someone?


Quote:
You just can't help yourself, can you?
Hey I was citing laws at the time, and in that spousal rape was a contradiction in terms. So it would be wrong to call such acts rape using logic you are using here to argue this isn't kidnapping.

Hell rape and spousal infidelity are covered under the same law in Michigan. Of course the crime isn't called rape so of course rape is not technically illegal then or something.

Citing laws is not always a good argument for justice, and depending on how the laws are named is really really unwise as they are often at odds with common terms.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:38 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what crime then is illegal detention, or is it legal in Kentucky to illegally detain someone?
. The relevant Kentucky statute defines the crime of unlawful imprisonment, punishable by one to five years in prison.

That seems to be the appropriate charge for this incident, assuming no other exculpatory information is revealed later.
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Old 12th June 2019, 07:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
. The relevant Kentucky statute defines the crime of unlawful imprisonment, punishable by one to five years in prison.

That seems to be the appropriate charge for this incident, assuming no other exculpatory information is revealed later.
And it is like arguing that as there was no penetration with a penis it is wrong to call Brock Turner a rapist.
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Old 12th June 2019, 09:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Right. And I don't think that's what the word "kidnapping" means, but it does sometimes get charged that way. Suddenly a very minor incident becomes a felony with a minimum ten year sentence.
Well what do you think is missing vis-a-vis the word "kidnapping", if the legal definition is too lenient?

According to Wikipedia, kidnapping is

Quote:
the unlawful carrying away (asportation) and confinement of a person against their will. Thus, it is a composite crime. It can also be defined as false imprisonment by means of abduction, both of which are separate crimes that when committed simultaneously upon the same person merge as the single crime of kidnapping. The asportation/abduction element is typically but not necessarily conducted by means of force or fear. That is, the perpetrator may use a weapon to force the victim into a vehicle, but it is still kidnapping if the victim is enticed to enter the vehicle willingly, e.g., in the belief it is a taxicab.
Oxford defines kidnapping as

Quote:
The action of abducting someone and holding them captive.
defining "abducting" as

Quote:
Take (someone) away illegally by force or deception; kidnap.
The going trend here seems to be that two things make a kidnapping:

1. taking someone away from where they were, and
2. holding them against their will

You'll find that 1) is what separates kidnapping from simple unlawful confinement. It would have been unlawful confinement if the restaurant owner just refused to let the child leave his store. But the owner actually went out and captured the child elsewhere and forcefully conveyed him to the restaurant before refusing to let him go, and that part of it is what makes the act "kidnapping" by the simple, non-legal definition of the word.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:00 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Well what do you think is missing vis-a-vis the word "kidnapping", if the legal definition is too lenient?

According to Wikipedia, kidnapping is



Oxford defines kidnapping as



defining "abducting" as



The going trend here seems to be that two things make a kidnapping:

1. taking someone away from where they were, and
2. holding them against their will

You'll find that 1) is what separates kidnapping from simple unlawful confinement. It would have been unlawful confinement if the restaurant owner just refused to let the child leave his store. But the owner actually went out and captured the child elsewhere and forcefully conveyed him to the restaurant before refusing to let him go, and that part of it is what makes the act "kidnapping" by the simple, non-legal definition of the word.
It goes back to a previous question I asked. How far does one have to be taken for it to constitute kidnapping? In my opinion, 100 yards, while in plain view, is not kidnapping or abduction. I can't see putting someone away for 10 years for this, absent some future revelations.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It goes back to a previous question I asked. How far does one have to be taken for it to constitute kidnapping? In my opinion, 100 yards, while in plain view, is not kidnapping or abduction. I can't see putting someone away for 10 years for this, absent some future revelations.
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...atutes_509-040

Linked the state statutes for kidnapping. The key here may be line f:

Quote:
A person is guilty of kidnapping when he unlawfully restrains another person and when his intent is...

(f)To deprive the parents or guardian of the custody of a minor, when the person taking the minor is not a person exercising custodial control or supervision of the minor as the term “person exercising custodial control or supervision” is defined in KRS 600.020.
He took a child at gunpoint, transported him (although not very far), and refused to release him to his lawful guardian. Dude is hosed.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:38 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It goes back to a previous question I asked. How far does one have to be taken for it to constitute kidnapping? In my opinion, 100 yards, while in plain view, is not kidnapping or abduction.
Maybe, but that's completely arbitrary. You appealed to "the real definition" of kidnapping, but the definition of the word doesn't say anything about the crime having to be hidden at any point, nor does it say the person has to be taken some minimum distance in order for it to "count".

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't see putting someone away for 10 years for this, absent some future revelations.
I don't think you have to worry about that; I think this charge is likely to be pleaded down.

One thing is for sure, the man deserves some jail time. It doesn't matter whether you're "just taking them 100 yards away"; you cannot grab other people's children and force them to go with you wherever you want. And you sure as hell can't threaten them with a gun while doing it, or threaten other people with a gun for objecting.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/...atutes_509-040

Linked the state statutes for kidnapping. The key here may be line f:



He took a child at gunpoint, transported him (although not very far), and refused to release him to his lawful guardian. Dude is hosed.
How and when he released the boy does seem relevant. A different story I read said that when the mom showed up, the kid was with police.

More fragmentary stories.

I have no idea how long it lasted or how it ended.
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Old 12th June 2019, 10:57 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It goes back to a previous question I asked. How far does one have to be taken for it to constitute kidnapping? In my opinion, 100 yards, while in plain view, is not kidnapping or abduction. I can't see putting someone away for 10 years for this, absent some future revelations.
No distance at all. Locking someone up in your basement who came over is still kidnapping.
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Old 12th June 2019, 12:50 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think you have to worry about that; I think this charge is likely to be pleaded down.
If that happens, I think it's a reasonable outcome.
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Old 13th June 2019, 06:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If that happens, I think it's a reasonable outcome.
Bull ****. This guy needs to serve real time. If he's not a citizen, he should be deported as a criminal alien under Section 237 of the Immigration and Nationality Act. He kidnapped and terrorized a child by putting what he represented to be a gun to his head. OJ Simpson did a nickel and two for doing pretty much the same thing to adults. You cannot put what you represent as a firearm to people's heads and force them to come with you in this country. He owes the state at least a nickel on this. If the pellet pistol was of the right caliber and fired rounds at enough FPS to kill at short range, maybe he owes more.
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