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Old 6th May 2019, 04:34 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
How the hell did you get that out of my post is beyond any understanding. And you want to change language…

In no way, shape or form did I said that nor even implied that.

Is there there some kind of award for biggest miss of point of year?
Your post implied - no, it outright declared - that gender neutral language was a nonproblem and that there were more important things to care about.

It's a problem, as I have taken pains to illustrate. It's a small one compared to some, but it's possible to work on this problem without ignoring others.
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:47 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It is a fact that style guides mean nothing when it comes to everyday language. They can insist on some rule or other until the compilers are blue in the face, but they won't change how people speak, nor indeed how many - even professionals - write.

It's interesting that people have resorted to "style guides says this" as if it's the final word, without actually considering why they say it, especially when it is contrary to real life speech and written usage.
Er... the style guides were brought up to counter the "argument" that "we've always used she, everyone uses she"...
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Old 12th May 2019, 12:53 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Your post implied - no, it outright declared - that gender neutral language was a nonproblem and that there were more important things to care about.

It's a problem, as I have taken pains to illustrate. It's a small one compared to some, but it's possible to work on this problem without ignoring others.
Correct, which is also completely different and very far from "As though it's true that problems can only be solved one at a time.".

As for your "problem", just bald assertion that there is problem with "gendered" language. So far I am not going to even grant that idiocy "small problem" status. It is so far manufactured/made up problem, nothing more.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:46 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Correct, which is also completely different and very far from "As though it's true that problems can only be solved one at a time.".

As for your "problem", just bald assertion that there is problem with "gendered" language. So far I am not going to even grant that idiocy "small problem" status. It is so far manufactured/made up problem, nothing more.
Wow, it's like I didn't even spend an hour composing a post arguing my position.
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Old 4th July 2019, 01:42 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The opposite of conservative isn't liberal. The opposite of conservative is progressive. Conservative thinking is that the status quo is better than change. Progressive thinking is that change is desirable when it is done for valid reasons.

There is no valid reason to maintain the status quo on referring to ships as "she". The only argument you have is that "it's the way we've always done it", ie. tradition. Unless you are of the idea that preserving tradition is somehow an inherent good in and of itself (and let's stick to language here - traditional culture is something different), there's no reason to keep doing it.

On the other hand, gender neutral language is an inherent good. Language has been marginalising women from time immemorial. When asked to describe what they see when they picture a "hero", most people will describe a hero who is tough, brave, a risk-taker, and overwhelmingly, male. "Hero" is not a gendered word, but the "default" hero is male. For one of those female heroes, we have a special word - heroine. An "actor" is by default male. If you have an actor who isn't male, you have to single her out with the word "actress". Women are a deviation from the norm. They are aberrant, an exception. Think of how many times you hear or read about a "female professor". No! She's a professor. But if I start telling you about a professor I know, the image that will be conjured up in your mind is overwhelmingly likely to be male unless I take steps to make sure I refer to her as female. If I don't take such steps, then in your mind the professor is male. Male is the default.

Did you read the Person Paper I linked above? The tl;dr is that Hofstadter analogises the genderedness of language by imagining a world where instead of language being divided into male and female, with male being the default, language is divided into white and black, with white being the default. Then he makes ALL the arguments that people have made against gender neutral language in the form of arguments against race-neutral language. And it's shocking. It should be shocking. That's its purpose. I was shocked by it when I first read it, and it completely changed my opinion about gendered language.

Women can be heroes. Women can be actors. Women can be firefighters, soldiers, aviators, professors, engineers, electricians, pilots and doctors. We don't need gendered language. We don't need to single women out as something other than the default. If we really want a world where men and women are treated equally, which I think we do, then treating them equally in language is a good start.

Here endeth the lesson.
Only seeing this just now.

Very good, dear arth.

I'll challenge you something, since that's what progressive thinkers do for each other.

Women can be are heroes. Women can be are actors. Women can be are firefighters, soldiers, aviators, professors, engineers, electricians, pilots and doctors.

Cheers, and congratulations on winning TLA.
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Old 4th July 2019, 01:51 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Only seeing this just now.

Very good, dear arth.

I'll challenge you something, since that's what progressive thinkers do for each other.

Women can be are heroes. Women can be are actors. Women can be are firefighters, soldiers, aviators, professors, engineers, electricians, pilots and doctors.

Cheers, and congratulations on winning TLA.
You are absolutely right, and I accept your correction for the next time I have to make this argument.
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Old 5th July 2019, 12:47 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You are absolutely right, and I accept your correction for the next time I have to make this argument.
<3

Here's similar way of saying things to change things with mental illness.

Everybody needs to stop going on, and on, and on, about, "Stop the stigma", "End the stigma".

I say, "What ******* stigma?

"Seeking advice is awesome."
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