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Tags Minneapolis incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 19th July 2017, 08:06 PM   #401
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without any disrespect for our boys in blue, I ask: How many cab drivers? How many bus drivers? How many corrections officers? How many 7-11 clerks? How many waiters walking home from work? Etc. Police work isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.
You're absolutely correct, but I've never heard of a guy initiating a call to a cab company, a bus company, a restaurant or a 7/11 and then lying in wait w/ a rifle to kill as many drivers, waiters or clerks as possible.

I lost two good friends and one good acquaintance otj between 1998 and 2009. In the 2009 incident, 3 other officers were murdered along with Erv.

I can't count how many guys I know that were shot and saved by their vest, or injured with a knife or other type of weapon. Some of those officers were injured to the point that even when they recovered from the initial injury they could no longer pass the med exam or PFT to get back to work.

I don't know too many non-LE jobs outside of oil rig workers, commercial fisherman or similar type professions that have that kind of baggage to carry around with them.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:10 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
What! this woman was 8 feet tall?

And armed with pajamas.

A terrifying sight.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:14 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You've just shot somebody. You're not under arrest. What do you gain at the point, by letting the police interrogate you anyway?

I'm pretty sure "arrest me or piss off" is the only rational response, at that point.

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They could make cooperation with investigators a condition of employment. Refusal to cooperate would be deemed a resignation. It's up to the cop. If he really doesn't think he did anything wrong, let him cooperate and take his chances; if he thinks he could be charged, let him adopt a pre-trial strategy while sitting at home.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:20 PM   #404
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Relevant to the discussion: Three Baltimore cops were arrested after one's bodycam caught him planting drugs while the others watched. He turned it on after planting the drugs without realizing that it also recorded the preceding 30 seconds.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...719-story.html
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:40 PM   #405
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As facts are revealed, certain theories can be discarded. It's amazing how much we can determine from a simple word or phrase (i.e. "loud noise" vs "bang").

I was trying to figure out what makes us (skeptical thinkers) different from conspiracy theorists. I supposed it's the willingness to change our minds once new facts are introduced.
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Old 19th July 2017, 08:40 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They could make cooperation with investigators a condition of employment. Refusal to cooperate would be deemed a resignation. It's up to the cop. If he really doesn't think he did anything wrong, let him cooperate and take his chances; if he thinks he could be charged, let him adopt a pre-trial strategy while sitting at home.
It's a fail from the get-go.

An employer can not require an employee to unilaterally surrender an established right under the law as a condition of employment. Employers from coast to coast have attempted a bunch of end runs around various state and federal labor laws with a batting average at just about zero - you can't require an employee to surrendered a right.

There certainly can be specific requirements related to physical ability to perform the job, the required qualifications to perform certain types of work (A & P. mechanics on aircraft, firefighters, EMT's, cops etc) and in certain fields (Which LE is one of) the requirement for drug/alcohol testing both random or as the result of an incident like we're discussing here.

Even a wet behind the ears attorney would have no difficulty in challenging such a work rule in court.

To be honest, I understand exactly where this comes from and I don't believe that it's about hating cops or any such thing, but does anybody really want to establish a standard where a guy off the street arrested on suspicion of rape/murder has the right to remain silent but the officer that arrested the suspect doesn't?

I personally know folks - for real - that believe a suspect not only shouldn't have 5th Amendment rights, if he doesn't want to talk, a little tune up is in order. (Please note, none of them are LEO's)

Anybody willing to bet how long the 5th. would last wrt criminal suspects if it was able to be unilaterally denied through an employment contract?
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Last edited by BStrong; 19th July 2017 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:00 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's a fail from the get-go.

An employer can not require an employee to unilaterally surrender an established right under the law as a condition of employment. Employers from coast to coast have attempted a bunch of end runs around various state and federal labor laws with a batting average at just about zero - you can't require an employee to surrendered a right.
.....
Is it really that cut-and-dried? In an at-will-employment state, the employer can fire the employee for pretty much any reason not prohibited by law or no reason at all. Suppose the Minneapolis police said "I don't want an officer who shoots people without good cause, and you've refused to give me any cause." People are routinely fired for suspicion of theft, fraud, harassment or other misconduct without allegations being proven to a legal standard, and if the employee wants to file a civil suit for wrongful termination the employer can put his whole work history in front of a jury.

The constitutional right, which I support and respect, is to not have to give evidence against yourself in a criminal matter. That doesn't mean an employer has to retain an employee he doesn't trust or value.

Last edited by Bob001; 19th July 2017 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:12 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Is it really that cut-and-dried? In an at-will-employment state, the employer can fire the employee for pretty much any reason not prohibited by law or no reason at all. Suppose the Minneapolis police said "I don't want an officer who shoots people without good cause, and you've refused to give me any cause." People are routinely fired for suspicion of theft, fraud, harassment or other misconduct without allegations being proven to a legal standard, and if the employee wants to file a civil suit for wrongful termination the employer can put his whole work history in front of a jury.

The constitutional right, which I support and respect, is to not have to give evidence against yourself in a criminal matter. That doesn't mean an employer has to retain an employee he doesn't trust or value.

At-will employment statutes generally do not supersede any contractual obligation the employer may have entered into with the employee which does not violate the employee's Constitutional rights.

Cops have great unions. I expect their employment contracts have a lot to say about summary dismissal. Little of it in the employer's favor.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:14 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
.....
Cops have great unions. I expect their employment contracts have a lot to say about summary dismissal. Little of it in the employer's favor.
I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. The question of how much power public employee unions should have is a whole different discussion.

Last edited by Bob001; 19th July 2017 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:15 PM   #410
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I followed the story in the comments section of Fox News. Here's how they responded:

I support cops killing citizens so of course it's OK to shoot immig--
Wait, it was a white woman? The cop is a Black Muslim? Muslims shouldn't even be allowed in the country, let alone serve on the police force.
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:18 PM   #411
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Interesting feature with staged videos illustrating uses and limitations of police bodycams:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...cam-video.html
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Old 19th July 2017, 09:46 PM   #412
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Like I say- white folks can get blasted too. This is why I say, reform police, get rid of the "warrior cop" mentality.
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:13 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Sergei Walankov View Post
And even if he wasn't, in what sense is it ill-informed? How is it not true that things aren't much better in Australia, where people aren't allowed to have guns?
People are allowed to have guns in Australia, it's just that they're a lot more restricted than in the USA.
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Old 20th July 2017, 01:20 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No, it's not okay. These things will happen from time to time. It's never okay.
If it's not okay, something will get done to prevent it happening again. If nothing is done to prevent it happening again, the message sent out is that it is okay. We'll see.

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Old 20th July 2017, 01:28 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If it's not okay, something will get done to prevent it happening again. If nothing is done to prevent it happening again, the message sent out is that it is okay. We'll see.

Dave

We know the message that has been sent so far. Or the response to it, at any rate.

Shoot first and claim "credible threat" afterwards. Let your employer shoulder the civil suits, and step away with a cash bonus.

Move on to the next cop shop.

Rinse and repeat.
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Old 20th July 2017, 02:49 AM   #416
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I have difficulty reconciling the brave, warrior-cop (is this like a D&D muli-class thing?), a man standing on the thin blue line, protecting, serving, all butch and macho - with the uniformed individual who appears to crap his pants at the slightest noise and shoot the nearest thing.

They seem to want the best of both worlds.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:24 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
They could make cooperation with investigators a condition of employment.
But they don't, so it's a moot point.

Which brings us back to, anyone can refuse to be interviewed by the police. It's not just a special prerogative of police officers themselves.

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Old 20th July 2017, 03:31 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I'm leaning towards an "accidental discharge" scenario.

There's some narrative that questions Noor's experience/competence...That he may have been a "political" hire.

At any rate, whether from the reported fireworks or the woman herself banging on the car, Noor draws his pistol. Woman (possibly in an agitated state) suddenly appears at the window and Noor is startled....
I don't know what kind of pistols these guys are issued. However, firing across your seated partner is not something you'd do deliberately.

I just looked, evidently the Minneapolis PD authorizes several different firearms. If Noor were carrying one of the authorized Glocks, a relatively easy trigger pull is all that's required to fire the weapon. There have been accidental discharges with these weapons.
That is why the term Glock Leg exists. These guns go off all the time by accident.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:36 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without any disrespect for our boys in blue, I ask: How many cab drivers? How many bus drivers? How many corrections officers? How many 7-11 clerks? How many waiters walking home from work? Etc. Police work isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs.
But it has the #1 most terrified violent people in it. I mean sure drunk drivers are a far bigger risk to cops like my step cousin who was hit by one while still in uniform on her way home. But remember they don't want high scoring people to be cops who understand things like statistics.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:38 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're absolutely correct, but I've never heard of a guy initiating a call to a cab company, a bus company, a restaurant or a 7/11 and then lying in wait w/ a rifle to kill as many drivers, waiters or clerks as possible.
Happens all the time, it is just your basic workplace shooting. Not even really memorable really.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:39 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
People are allowed to have guns in Australia, it's just that they're a lot more restricted than in the USA.
Yeah, no ****. "People aren't allowed to have guns" is obviously to be understood as shorthand for "gun laws are immensely more restrictive than they are in the US". There was nothing ignorant about the argument that was being advanced.
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:40 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Relevant to the discussion: Three Baltimore cops were arrested after one's bodycam caught him planting drugs while the others watched. He turned it on after planting the drugs without realizing that it also recorded the preceding 30 seconds.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...719-story.html
Which is why police need more training, then he would have known to wait the additional 30 seconds.....
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Old 20th July 2017, 03:40 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
At-will employment statutes generally do not supersede any contractual obligation the employer may have entered into with the employee which does not violate the employee's Constitutional rights.

Cops have great unions. I expect their employment contracts have a lot to say about summary dismissal. Little of it in the employer's favor.
Which is why bad cops never get fired no matter how much the cops here pretend otherwise. You have to pay a lot of money to get them to leave and work for some other police department.
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Old 20th July 2017, 04:30 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Okay, next trick then. If they heard a pounding on the rear panels of the car, and "believed it was an ambush", how did the victim get shot through the driver-side window, by the cop in the passenger seat? Are we to imagine they felt so threatened by this ambush, signaled by the knocking on the rear of the car, that they then stopped the vehicle and allowed the attacker to approach the open driver window before taking any kind of action?
Yahoo news reporting KSTP as quoted above* suggests a scenario where the woman, seeing they were about to leave, approached the car from the rear drivers side and slapped on the car to get their attention and stop them driving off.

It's the most natural thing in the world if you're not attuned to the idea that you approach police like you'd approach a sleeping dog - never take them by surprise.

*That report:"A report from Minneapolis TV station KSTP citing an anonymous source, claims they could not find anything at the scene, but watched a young male cyclist ride past on the passenger side of their police vehicle just as they were about to depart.

With their attention on him, they became spooked by a pounding on the driver’s side, which officers thought was “an ambush”, KSTP reported."
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Old 20th July 2017, 04:40 AM   #425
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Quote:
Yahoo news reporting KSTP as quoted above* suggests a scenario where the woman, seeing they were about to leave, approached the car from the rear drivers side and slapped on the car to get their attention and stop them driving off.

It's the most natural thing in the world if you're not attuned to the idea that you approach police like you'd approach a sleeping dog - never take them by surprise.

*That report:"A report from Minneapolis TV station KSTP citing an anonymous source, claims they could not find anything at the scene, but watched a young male cyclist ride past on the passenger side of their police vehicle just as they were about to depart.

With their attention on him, they became spooked by a pounding on the driver’s side, which officers thought was “an ambush”, KSTP reported."
And then?

They look to the driver's side door, see a woman in her pajamas standing there, and the passenger cop starts blasting away.

Yeah. We got that part.

That really doesn't move things along much.
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:05 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The driver says he was startled by the sound.
Yes. I am wondering if the Driver even called "Gun". If he did, that would be instant OK to shoot for his partner. (Not OK legally necessarily, but if your partner calls gun, he is basically telling his partner to shoot him)

However, if he did, then he would have probably lawyered up as well.
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:16 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You're absolutely correct, but I've never heard of a guy initiating a call to a cab company, a bus company, a restaurant or a 7/11 and then lying in wait w/ a rifle to kill as many drivers, waiters or clerks as possible.
Your started off pretty typical, but then went to 'as many... as possible'? Why not just go to 'hide out in a clocktower and shoot as many as possible'?

Probably because you realized, that yes: people calling restaurants and then killing the pizza delivery guy IS A THING, and has happened plenty of times. In fact, people calling for a taxicab driver, and then killing the driver during the commission of a crime is EVEN more of a thing, because it's puts taxicab drivers and chauffeurs into the top 10 most deadly jobs in the US.

So, again: why it is that a taxi cab driver, in this circumstance, who gets startled by a noise, and then shoots the woman outside the cab, would be going to prison, but with a cop, it's just a mistake?

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't know too many non-LE jobs outside of oil rig workers, commercial fisherman or similar type professions that have that kind of baggage to carry around with them.
I'm sorry that you've lost friends to that kind of violence. One of my friends got robbed when he delivered pizza to a bogus address; he could have been killed just as well. As for the lists of jobs that have that kind of baggage: again, the top 10 lists of most dangerous jobs are out there.

When we give people greater powers, such as pharmacists to dispense drugs, or police officers to shoot, they get greater responsibility with it. It's so strange to hear people pleading that they should have LESS responsibility for these kinds of shootings; it just makes no sense to me.
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:21 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post

I personally know folks - for real - that believe a suspect not only shouldn't have 5th Amendment rights, if he doesn't want to talk, a little tune up is in order. (Please note, none of them are LEO's)

Anybody willing to bet how long the 5th. would last wrt criminal suspects if it was able to be unilaterally denied through an employment contract?
Yeah, the Supreme Court would love to hear how a person spent 10 years in prison, because their employer made them waive their 5th Amendment right as a condition of employment.

"Your family will lose your pension unless you sign this confession..."
Sounds like coercion.

Justice Hugo Black:
Quote:
Under our constitutional system, courts stand against any winds that blow as havens of refuge for those who might otherwise suffer because they are helpless, weak, outnumbered, or because they are nonconforming victims of prejudice and public excitement.
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:21 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
So, again: why it is that a taxi cab driver, in this circumstance, who gets startled by a noise, and then shoots the woman outside the cab, would be going to prison, but with a cop, it's just a mistake?

Because policemen have an obligation to defend the public and therefore need more...

No.

Hang on.

I have that wrong don't I?

No more required to provide public protection than anyone else.


Enhanced privileges without enhanced responsibility hardly ever works...
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:43 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by jeffas69 View Post
IMHO you have it wrong. It is the general attitude of the civilian population towards the police that has been growing sour. I don't think police have changed all that much. If they have it may be a response to the civilian attitude especially in high crime areas. If the trend continues, I believe police interaction with the public will worsen as you will not get the best and the brightest going forward. Who the hell would want to become a cop in this climate if you have other options? Risk going to prison with all the thugs that hate me, for a single mistake, nah I think I'll just go into heating and air conditioning.
And IMHO, that's looking through the telescope the wrong way. Violent crime has been going DOWN, not up, in the last few decades. Things are getting SAFER, not more dangerous.

And yet we have Dave Grossman holding conferences about how they're all under seige. Instructions and training that they must get 'compliance', even if circumstances or information has changed during the encounter. The poor people of Ferguson being used as ATM machines, and when they protest, an over-militarized police response.
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Old 20th July 2017, 05:51 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
And IMHO, that's looking through the telescope the wrong way. Violent crime has been going DOWN, not up, in the last few decades. Things are getting SAFER, not more dangerous.

And yet we have Dave Grossman holding conferences about how they're all under seige. Instructions and training that they must get 'compliance', even if circumstances or information has changed during the encounter. The poor people of Ferguson being used as ATM machines, and when they protest, an over-militarized police response.
But it it so easy to get military hardware look at this new report on how they don't even bother checking into if it is a real agency they are giving a million dollars worth of gear to.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/politi...ent/index.html
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:11 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But it it so easy to get military hardware look at this new report on how they don't even bother checking into if it is a real agency they are giving a million dollars worth of gear to.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/politi...ent/index.html

And once the boys get new toys, why naturally they have to use 'em.

What fun would they be if they didn't get used?
Quote:
Since 1991, the Department of Defense has reported transferring more than $6 billion worth of its excess military equipment and weapons to more than 8,600 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies.
And we wonder why the cops are developing a military mindset.

They can't help themselves. They have to play dress-up.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:15 AM   #433
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Mohamed Noor Speaks?

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive...oor-speaks.php

Nothing about fireworks there...

If that account is what Noor will claim, I hope he goes to jail.

In that account, he deliberately fired his pistol when he had no idea of the target.

I also don't know how he would know anything about panicking on the 911 call, since he wouldn't have heard the 911 call at the time he fired his pistol.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:19 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Mohamed Noor Speaks?

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive...oor-speaks.php

Nothing about fireworks there...

If that account is what Noor will claim, I hope he goes to jail.

"Credible threat". He'll skate.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:25 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Credible threat". He'll skate.
I don't think it was dark, and I don't think she was panicking.

I also think there was a witness who hasn't been found / come forward yet.

If cops can just shoot people because the cops are panicky, then something is very wrong. Being a cop is dangerous by nature. You can't panic every time someone approaches you. Or ever.

Why would you panic and shoot from the other side of the car, when the driver didn't panic and shoot from his own side?

Cops can't be panicky people with guns.

They just can't.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:27 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Cops can't be panicky people with guns.

They just can't.
They shouldn't, but it seems that too many are....
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:32 AM   #437
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:35 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I don't think it was dark, and I don't think she was panicking.

Me either.

Quote:

I also think there was a witness who hasn't been found / come forward yet.

That would be handy.

Quote:

If cops can just shoot people because the cops are panicky, then something is very wrong. Being a cop is dangerous by nature. You can't panic every time someone approaches you. Or ever.

Something is very wrong.

The very fact that the cop panics is used as evidence of a "credible threat". After all, if he didn't feel "credibly threatened" he wouldn't have panicked.

Right?

Quote:

Why would you panic and shoot from the other side of the car, when the driver didn't panic and shoot from his own side?

Why would you run up and shoot a guy lying on his back on the pavement with his hands in the air when none of the other cops there did?

Quote:

Cops can't be panicky people with guns.

They just can't.

Nice thought. But they are.

And way too many people seem to have no problem with that. They bend their minds into multi-dimensional pretzels trying to find ways to excuse the cop and blame the victim.

Every

Single

Time

This

Happens.
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:38 AM   #439
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Why is Noor's partner letting Noor ride around with his pistol out of it's holster?
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Old 20th July 2017, 06:41 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Why is Noor's partner letting Noor ride around with his pistol out of it's holster?

Maybe he just likes to keep it in his lap and fondle it.

After all, we know they couldn't have been anticipating any encounters because they had their body cams turned off.
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